2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI give up
I've been straining for Clinton to tell the truth. This is important. Not just for the Democratic primary, but for the general. People need to feel she's on their side.
But she lies so much. She twists all things. Nothing out of her mouth is honest.
I'm a knowledgeable person, and almost everything out of her mouth was an obfuscation or a half-truth in tonight's debate.
She cannot tell the truth.
Do people think she's going to wing it during the general?
The electorate is pissed. By "populist" the media means, "Anyone willing to tell the truth to America's face".
Does everyone hate Trump? Great. Did you actually watch what he said in his "I love the Chinese!" speech? He articulated the Rust Belt. He hit on every unemployed career person in America. He struck at the heart of America manufacturing.
Meanwhile, we worry that Bernie, with the same message, didn't quite get a social issue we're all about.
Oh jesus.
Enjoy November.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Stay date.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Living in Texas and all.
EmperorHasNoClothes
(4,797 posts)I can't believe she brought up the auto bailout vote again after she was universally panned by the media the first time she did it. It's not often that you have people of all stripes say outright that she was distorting the record like that, yet she went and did it again. Either the reaction the first time didn't make it into the bubble or she just figures the benefits of lying about it outweigh the negatives.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Or she's simply the sort of politician who believes backing down on anything during a campaign makes you look weak.
She believes in the old saying the more you repeat a lie the the more people will believe it.
casperthegm
(643 posts)That's when I couldn't take any more. I mean, is Hillary, friend of the frackers, really trying to tie Sanders to the Koch brothers? That's what really bothers me. Even if you are not a Sanders supporter, you have to know he certainly has no ties to them. She's intentionally smearing him, hoping that voters are dumb enough to buy into her lies. I'm tired of it and there is no justification for it. And I'm supposed to vote for this woman if she gets the nomination? Really???
PatrickforO
(14,577 posts)Bernie RAISED OVER $5 MILLION DURING THE DEBATE.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Why he claimed that a collective approach was better than an individual approach. Why he visited Ortega's communist regime and ignored human rights abuses in Cuba and Nicaragua. Sanders was exposed last night. The commercial is being cut as we speak.
jpb33
(141 posts)In the 1980s Bernie knew that the US and there backed right wing dictators were killing and murdering hundreds of thousands of people. The only person exposed was Hillary Clinton who believes in 1980s Ronald Regan South American foreign policy. Bernie Sander's believes every country has a right to self determination whether we like their choices or not.
I guess you are alright with right wing dictators or military generals taking over countries. You probably supported Hillary's involvement in the Honduran coup.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)When the American people see the praise that Sanders lavished on Castro and Ortega and their communist systems of collectivism over individualism, he will be rendered unelectable in the general. He IS NOT a Democrat. The commercials are being cut as we speak.
jpb33
(141 posts)The so-called rugged individual myth rears its ugly head. Collectivism over individualism, nothing but a stupid right wing bumper sticker phrase. Tell me if you and your individualism can make the interstate highway system. I bet you as an individual can't even feed yourself or clothe yourself if you had to do it alone. A society cannot function if it is nothing but a bunch of individuals only looking out for themselves.
He is more of a Democrat than Hillary Clinton. He has all the ideals that Democrats used in the 20th century to make America the richest most powerful country on Earth. Hillary has 3rd way, moderate Republican ideals. The very same ideals that have ruined this country for the past 30 years.
If she wants to have those ideals fine, but don't try and turn the Democratic party into a moderate Republican party.
Bernie's ideals are no different than FDR. Hillary's ideals (which change day to day I might add) are Reagan ideals.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Glad you're here!
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)They haven't been risking a 90 mile journey in row boats just for the scenery.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Not everyone wants to leave.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Where have you been? Did you just come out of a cave? Were you even aware there's been a primary contest happening? This commercial you speak of, will it call Sen Sanders a Communist? Like in China? You know, that place where you buy all of your stuff because they make it all? The 1950's called and want their Red Scare back!.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)if your predictions are anything like how he will be out by Super Tuesday or how he will only win Vermont, I doubt many people will take your fear seriously. But hey, it's fun to dream. The super pacs of the right painted Obama as a socialist so often that they actually softened the word in America. It doesn't create fear like it used to. Stop flailing, flinging poo at the wall, or whatever this sad attempt was, the whole problem with Hillary's candidacy is Hillary and her various stance on positions which makes her seem untrustworthy.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It can't be progressive to be against EVERYTHING that's been done in Cuba. Support free speech, fine, but none of us should want free education and healthcare taken away. If they are, it will be meaningless that Cuba has "elections", because nothing would matter IN those elections. Nothing progressive or humane would ever be possible in Cuba again if everything done after 1959 was overturned, like HRC wants. The place would just be a dead zone.
And Daniel Ortega never was a dictator. he won a free election in 1984, left power of his own free will after losing in 1990, and then eventually returned to power in two more free elections.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)He supports collectivism over individualism. That's a non-starter IMO.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You keep posting that like it means something.
Has Bernie modified his platform and embraced communism?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He just admired the fact that these people were working together for the common good. That's cooperation, not "collectivism" in the Soviet sense you're implying.
We don't have to be solely for individual self-interest to be free.
And it's damn near impossible to put individual self-interest first and still have humane and progressive and democratic values.
Bernie doesn't support Cuban communism-he just wants us to stop interfering in a country where we have no right to interfere, given our ugly record of behavior towards that country-behavior which started when took Cuba over as our own colony after the Spanish-American War.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)That is the very definition of a communist collectivist system and not a democratic capitalistic system. I do not support that. I don't think the vast majority of Americans will support that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Can you accept no position other than the idea that every single thing done in Cuba since 1959 must be scrapped? That would give the people there no hope and nothing to live there.
In any case, after 57 years, we already know we can't ever bring the Cuban government down, so why not try something else? Why not admit that it's not our place to try and say how Cuba should be run?
Bettie
(16,110 posts)in your world, judging from what you've said, it should always be dog eat dog, every man for himself.
No working together to create a better world, just each individual working for his own personal profit and trying their level best to shove down those behind them on that metaphorical ladder.
Sounds like paradise. If you're an oligarch.
Vilis Veritas
(2,405 posts)people working for the common good of a nation.
Sounds to me like you do not support the Constitution of the United States.
Per our Constitution
WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more
perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,
provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare,
and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,
do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United
States of America
We the people working together in order to form a more perfect Union.
See what I did there? I cherry picked your comment and made it seem like a false reality.
Videos are being cut as we speak.
safeinOhio
(32,688 posts)Personal history working out for you?
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts).
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)The "start" is well over. You are entitled to your opinion and if that's a non-starter for you then that's fine. It's not for me or a whole bunch of others that understand as individuals we can't get a fire department, water treatment, sewage system, education or a good health care system but as a collective we can. Maybe you have the wealth to accomplish all that on your own but I don't nor does anybody I know.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts).
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)As I said, I don't want to disrespect your opinion of Cuba, collective efforts or what ever but your view is yours. Anyway, you said in one post the voters will decide. We can agree on that! Have a nice day. Really!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)I've read much history regarding Teddy Roosevelt and the breaking of the Trusts. If you have the chance, read Doris Kearns Goodwins book on TR and Taft. It's excellent.
I want reform as much as anyone on here. But, from a historical reference, the timing is not ripe IMO. Roosevelt, a Republican, employed the services of the progressive magazines of the time to convince the opposition's base to join him. Progressive writers would actually visit the White House at TR's request.
Toaday's political environment is too polarized. Can you imagine a President Sanders inviting FOX, Breitbart or the Wall Street Journal to the White House to help him persuade the Republican base to support single payer ? The Republican base has cheered on their politicians as they've voted 62 times to repeal the ACA. I think timing is the most important element of any movement. I sometimes wonder if Sanders would have chosen this time if he were a 50 year old Senator with a longer time horizon. In addition, the Supreme Court hangs in the balance. We need a Democrat to re-shape that Court. THEN we can become much more forward leaning. So, I'm not against reform, I'm against the timing of that reform. Teddy Roosevelt was operating in a different environment. But, people will still point to my user name as some hypocritical quirk but it really isn't.
Typical of a Hillary supporter. You have a pic of Lincoln, yet support a candidate who helped push her husbands crime bill that put 1 in 3 black people in prison. A woman who takes cash from the private prison industry, a woman who supported her husbands welfare bill which had a huge negative impact on minorities, and raised the poverty rate in America. You back a candidate who supports Obama's policy of sending back undocumented immigrants to home country despite the dangers they face back home.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)We'll let the people decide.
The US heaped plenty of praise on right wing dictators on every corner of the Earth. Hillary Clinton sings the praises of former Colombian President Uribe and look at all the blood that is on his hands. A man that was friends with Pablo Escobar, a man who ordered the killing of country peasants and dressed them up in uniforms so as to claim they were in FARC just so his soldiers could get a bonus. He will probably be in a Colombian prison cell within the next few years. That is the kind of person Hillary Clinton heaps praise on.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He just said we shouldn't get rid of the good along with the bad when it comes to Cuba.
I assume you would agree, at least I'd hope you would agree, that we should never push Cuba to privatize its healthcare or educational systems-that nothing that happens there should lead to the Cuban people having to pay for healthcare or university education out of pocket individually.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)If you want to talk about people going off the rails perhaps you shouldn't be derailing chit. If you want to talk about Castro and Ortega please by all means do so, with your own OP.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Last night, I witnessed Sanders run away from his 1985 remarks. That's relevant.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)Compared to the rogues' gallery of despots that are our "allies" today and were supported by HRC as SoS.
Would you not take Castro over the roving bandits now in control of Libya?
Would you not take Ortega over the murderous Fascists now running Honduras?
Either way, these are Cold War era concerns. These are not what anybody actually cares about in 2016. 30 years have gone by - time to download an update to your political operating system.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Sanders just slandered the power of the individual and we all know one person can accomplish so much more when freed from the collective mind set that operated on the assumption that we're all in it together. Clearly some are not. And They are what makes America Great!
So, remember: Policies that punish poor people for being poor, oppressed for being oppressed and reward the wealthy for inheriting their wealth is good. Individual good. Collective (United?) bad!
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)...if you put the video in context, it is not a 'I Love Castro' tape, but a 'I love my Country but the propoganda their trying to sell you here is wrong' tape.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)He ackwardly sidestepped his past statements regarding Castro and Ortega last night.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)piece who tried to add context to a 30 second clip.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)There's no place like home... There's no place like home...
There's NO place like home...
greymouse
(872 posts)If you had seen the films and photos of how Batista, whom the U.S. government loved, tortured people, you would be a fan of Castro too. Batista makes Castro look like the Pope.
Trustbuster's arguments seems to be getting busted up at the moment.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)It matters what the American people will think when they see political ads over and over of Sanders praising Castro and Ortega and their communist system of government.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)(btw, Ortega was and is a democratically-elected leader, so he isn't like Castro. Don't treat them like peas in a pod).
Most of the American people don't want us trying to overthrow other countries' governments anymore.
Response to Trust Buster (Reply #25)
tazkcmo This message was self-deleted by its author.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Who is America's largest trading partner? Need a hint?
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)well rounded answer somehow blaming Wall street.
raging moderate
(4,305 posts)Under Communism, there is government ownership of all means of production with planning by a dictatorial central committee and no toleration for dissent. That is not what Bernie Sanders advocates.
Yuugal
(2,281 posts)As a Hillary fan, I can say conclusively that in order to appropriately visualize progressive products in our party, we need to quickly right-shore global metrics. That is the key many of you forget. When we dynamically supply viral synergy to the base we sometimes rapaciously fabricate inter-mandated internal or "organic" sources.
Look, no one likes outsourcing, but the globally supplied granular processes we use to conveniently network economically sound ideas quickly builds scale-able mind share! Try to keep up!
And yes, I love corporate bullshit generators, both sentient and otherwise:
http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)I'll have to make extensive use of that site!
Yuugal
(2,281 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It's been a great primary on our side and I'm excited about its direction.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>The electorate is pissed. By "populist" the media means, "Anyone willing to tell the truth to America's face". >>>
Part of the electorate is pissed. Part of it is still asleep. Part of THAT part WOULD be pissed if it weren't unconscious.
( I was going to link to two "safe-haven " Groups here at this point but thought it might serve to distract; besides, with you, I don't have to.)
If we can get the central argument to the Sanders v Trump stage... if Clinton, Rubio, Kasich (and the rest of the perennial candidates for perennial public office) can be gotten out of the way... we will have accomplished something wonderful. Their presence serves only to distract.
At that point the choice for EVERYONE will be ...as Brandeis said... "You can have democracy or you can have oligarchy; but you can't have BOTH." ( paraphrased.)