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kennetha

(3,666 posts)
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 12:52 PM Mar 2016

Free Trade and Clinton vs. Sanders

I'm a big supporter of Clinton's and think she will be an infinitely better president than anything the Republicans have to offer and orders of magnitude better than Sanders would be. The one area where she has somewhat disappointed me is on the topic of Free Trade. I think that in her heart of hearts she is a free-trader. How could someone who served as Secretary of State not be? How could she not know that for the world as a whole Free Trade is a good thing not a bad thing. It is an essential ingredient in the attempt to alleviate global poverty and essential ingredient in addressing global migration problem. People have to be able to work productively in their nations of origins, to trade productive work for higher living standards that keeps them rooted in their communities.

I am sure she believes such things. But because free trade doesn't sell in certain democratic constituencies or perhaps even with the public at large, she is playing it very, very cagey.

But I wish she would at least not let go unchallenged Sanders simplistic narrative that free trade only benefits the billionaire and millionaire class and is mainly responsible for the decline of manufacturing in places like Michigan and Ohio. it is just not true.

First up in the decline of Detroit was the rise of Toyota and other Japanese automakers in the 70's and 80's -- long before NAFTA. They were producing more fuel efficient cars than Detroit -- during a time when an oil crises was making Americans hungry for such cars. Those Japanese car makers kept gaining market share, despite the fact that those auto were subject to voluntary import restrictions. And Japanese trucks were then and are still subject to a 25% import duty, but the way. This was all way before NAFTA.

Moreover, when the factories did start moving out of Detroit -- again long before NAFTA -- they started out moving to the South, not to foreign shores. In the South not only were unions were weaker, but States were throwing tax incentives around like candy. Lots of Northerners moved South in those days chasing the fleeing manufacturing economy.

Eventually the move South were followed by moves out of the country. But Sanders gets things wrong about the current incentives to build factories in Mexico.. Mexican auto factories actually pay pretty well -- not by old UAW standards -- but not close to 25 cents an hour as he says. More like $8 to $10 dollars an hour.

In addition, Mexico is a heavily export depended economy. It has free trade agreements with many more countries than the US does. o if I am a manufacturer and I want to trade with the world, building my factory in Mexico makes it much easier to do that. Making the US less trade friendly would therefore only make matters worse.

Sanders also doesn't address the effects of automation on manufacturing jobs. A long time ago, when i was a young man, I actually worked as a spot welder in an auto assembly plant. It was back breaking work, but it paid very well. But that kind of job no longer exists in any auto assembly job in the world. Spot welding is done by spot welding robots on completely automated spot welding bays. Lots of manufacturing jobs have disappeared because of technology and they are NEVER coming back.

The point is that the decline of manufacturing in the US has many cause. Free trade may have played some role, but it is an infinitely more complex subject than Sanders in particular makes it out to be. And on the upside free trade has played a significant role in reducing world poverty and contributing to the gradual but steady rise of a global middle class. And that is a good thing for everybody.

Yes free trade contributes, as one factor among others, to economic dislocations here in the US. And those dislocations need to be addressed by serious progressive policies.

What I don't get is why Clinton -- who usually happily acknowledges and openly embraces such complexities in other spheres -- has been so silent on this subject. I have no doubt that she has a much more nuanced and sophisticated understanding of all this than Sanders -- for whom nuance is a dirty word, it seems.

I guess our politics is not made for dealing in nuance and complexities. It's made for simplifying grand narratives, painted mostly in black and white and maybe a few shades of gray here and there. That's what mobilizes people, I guess. Depressing thought though.

13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Free Trade and Clinton vs. Sanders (Original Post) kennetha Mar 2016 OP
It's a losing issue for her... TTUBatfan2008 Mar 2016 #1
Mexican auto workers kennetha Mar 2016 #4
Nothing to be proud of either libtodeath Mar 2016 #9
Excellent post. I think the reason that she and others don't address it is that the underlying truth Hoyt Mar 2016 #2
excellent points all kennetha Mar 2016 #3
Only one area? Really? Motown_Johnny Mar 2016 #5
Huh? kennetha Mar 2016 #6
From the OP... Motown_Johnny Mar 2016 #7
Yep darkwing Mar 2016 #8
Exactly kennetha Mar 2016 #10
Great post. interesting comments, too. NurseJackie Mar 2016 #11
Just remember, "Free Trade" and "Globalization" are all code words for "Offshoring", nothing more! TheBlackAdder Mar 2016 #12
Sabnders is attacking the whole Anto-Human orientation of you modern Corporate Economy Armstead Mar 2016 #13

TTUBatfan2008

(3,623 posts)
1. It's a losing issue for her...
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 01:00 PM
Mar 2016

...both in the primary and in a general election against Trump. If you think Sanders is hammering her for it, just wait until Trump gets going on this topic. Chuck Todd pointed out that Trump has had very protectionist trade views since at least 1987. It's apparently the one issue where he has not had major flip-flips. Obviously she can kill him on immigration, racism, and so on. But I think she will have a tough time in the Rust Belt against Trump because of the trade issue.

Free trade as it has been pushed by both parties for a long time means corporations outsourcing jobs overseas for slave labor and then selling the products to the American people. I agree with you that automation has hurt the manufacturing industry, but this doesn't absolve our political leaders for the policies we have in place. Apple uses slave labor in China. Apple was not making iPhones back when you were working on auto assembly. There are manufacturing jobs that could be in the U.S. for a decent wage, but our current trade agreements allow corporations to engage in downright immoral manufacturing processes overseas.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
9. Nothing to be proud of either
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 04:39 PM
Mar 2016
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/08/12/mexi-a12.html

While wages vary from region to region and factory to factory, Mexican autoworkers are paid an average of 90 pesos (US$5.64) an hour compared to $27.78 for their American counterparts. Total labor costs, including wages and benefits, average 129 pesos (US$8) an hour in Mexico, compared to $58 in the US for GM and $38 at Volkswagen’s factory in Tennessee, the lowest hourly cost in the US, according to the Center for Automotive Research.
Workers assemble car radios at a maquiladora in Matamoros, a city on Mexico’s border with the United States

Autoworker wages in Mexico are now below the pay of comparable workers in China, where a series of strikes in 2010 led to a rise in auto industry wages. Productivity at Mexican plants—where a line worker often labors 12 hours, four times a week—has risen twice as fast as workers’ wages since 2005.
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
2. Excellent post. I think the reason that she and others don't address it is that the underlying truth
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 01:09 PM
Mar 2016

is that without free trade, America is in for a rough 21st Century. With robotics, computers, foreign competition, etc., the way we have done things in the past will not provide the economic activity we need to sustain jobs; tax revenue for health care, welfare, education, research, even sustainable income, and the like; and more. Small businesses work fine here, but we are dealing with big corporations from other countries that will leave us trading among ourselves if we don't do something. Trading among ourselves will not produce the jobs and revenue necessary for "free or debt-free" education, healthcare, etc.

The future is bleak enough unless we make some major changes. Sadly, any candidate that levels with people will be defeated at the poll. While Clinton may be dancing around the issue to avoid that fate, she's not making promises that she can't keep. I admire her for that, and I am convinced she knows things are going to be tough and will work for policies that make the landing better for all of us.

I also think, a world where every country is progressing economically will help with that landing. That's why I am for all the trade we can encourage. Sanders derision of free trade is kind of like a poker player who wins most of the money at the table, and leaves without giving others a chance to win some back. We've taken more of our fair share of the world's resources and wealth, now we owe it to other countries, particularly the poor like Vietnam where all we've given them is fire bombs.

You are so right, trade is nuanced and quite complicated especially when you consider all the factors involved. Most people can't see beyond the fact that they had an uncle who lost his job making buggy whips or fitting bumpers on cars that can now be done by a robot. I'm not minimizing the human pain when that happens because I've felt it too, but we better find solutions for that kind of stuff happening at an increasing rate. But if you say it, you will lose.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
5. Only one area? Really?
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 03:08 PM
Mar 2016

So you are pro death penalty?

You believe there should be limitations on abortions in the third trimester?

You think children should be deported back to places like Honduras?

You think we can wait to act on climate change for another 20 years?

You have not opposed any military action the United States has taken within the last 30 years?

You want to expand the use of corn based ethanol?

You think a no fly zone over Syria would be a good idea?

Oh hell, I am tired of typing.








 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
7. From the OP...
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 03:20 PM
Mar 2016

I'm a big supporter of Clinton's and think she will be an infinitely better president than anything the Republicans have to offer and orders of magnitude better than Sanders would be. The one area where she has somewhat disappointed me is on the topic of Free Trade. I think that in her heart of hearts she is a free-trader. How could someone who served as Secretary of State not be? How could she not know that for the world as a whole Free Trade is a good thing not a bad thing. It is an essential ingredient in the attempt to alleviate global poverty and essential ingredient in addressing global migration problem. People have to be able to work productively in their nations of origins, to trade productive work for higher living standards that keeps them rooted in their communities.

darkwing

(33 posts)
8. Yep
Thu Mar 10, 2016, 04:31 PM
Mar 2016

Trade is like the goose that laid golden eggs. We shouldn't kill the goose. Instead, we should support policies that make sure the eggs benefit more people.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
13. Sabnders is attacking the whole Anto-Human orientation of you modern Corporate Economy
Sat Mar 12, 2016, 09:09 AM
Mar 2016

You are correct. Free trade is not the only culprit. That's why he is also gouing after "Wall ST" which is shorthand for the whole Profit Uber Alles mentality of the modern business world.

The most efficient form of production is slavery combined with automation, and a large population who are pushed out and starving. The movie Soylent Green captures that pretty well.

Is that what we really want?

He represente a much larger movement -- and larger public sentiment -- that is trying to connect the dots to push the economy back to at least a counterbalance to the worst aspects of Corporate Greed and Capitalistic Rapaciousness.

That should be supported, not dismissed.


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