2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAmericans May Be Too Religious To Embrace Socialism
If you want America to be more like Europe, you need a cultural revolution, not a political one. For example, if we went to a Single Payer healthcare system, you would have to convince large swaths of the American people to accept that the government would pay for women' reproductive healthcare. That's a big hurdle to overcome.
The conventional wisdom is that the individualist, evangelical style of American religion is a strong antidote to socialism. If faith alone can lead you to salvation, then efforts to reshape society are beside the point. But the animosity between them has been more pointed, especially regarding so called Godless communists who portrayed religion as the opiate of the masses. In these data, those who agreed that social problems would be resolved if enough people had a personal relationship with God were 20 percent less socialist than those who disagreed. A worldview that pits faith directly against collective action explains clearly why collectivist efforts have traditionally foundered in the U.S.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-may-be-too-religious-to-embrace-socialism/
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Yavin4
(35,442 posts)The data is providing you with information on which to develop a political strategy. No one is saying "give up". What they are saying is that you have to take analysis into consideration when developing a strategy.
There are millions of religious folks in this country (Evangelicals, Mormons, Catholics, etc.). They have votes, and if you want a socialist agenda, you have to figure out a way to get their votes.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Yavin4
(35,442 posts)Or, should a political/legislative strategy incorporate data in order to get where you want to go?
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Yavin4
(35,442 posts)You cannot get anything done without the congress, and if you leave the red states to the fundies, then it's a wash.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)I will opt for bold and inspiring leadership building a national agenda.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Also have the goddamn national Democratic Party support them instead of making up excuses and/or scuttle them because "this won't work because the electorate is too conservative" like they are trying to do to Sanders.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Because if I'm not mistaken, Jesus was all abut administering to the sick, feeding the hungry and helping the poor.
In other words Jesus was all about socialism.
3catwoman3
(24,007 posts)I think Jesus would be completely appalled by many things done by those who claim to be his followers.
Gandhi nailed it when he said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are not very like your Christ." (apologies for any possible paraphrase - I didn't look it up before quoting it)
(content questioning agnostic UU here)
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Less lgbt and women's rights, less health care and education, and more religion!
Let's put more straight Christians in positions of power!
Hillary 2016: Because we don't deserve better.
Yavin4
(35,442 posts)It says that religion is a roadblock on collectivist action. Figure out a path around that roadblock to get the things that we want.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We get the message, and we reject it
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...they wouldn't be so opposed to socialism.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)radical noodle
(8,003 posts)that many Republicans prefer to see the ill die in the streets.
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)fun n serious
(4,451 posts)I see it as " free will."
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)It resonates, seeing how Christianity is all about loving God and loving one another because (or as if) God is in the other person, just like in you.
Punkingal
(9,522 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,735 posts)EmperorHasNoClothes
(4,797 posts)Universal healthcare benefits everyone. Don't like it? I hear Algeria is nice this time of year.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)TheFarS1de
(1,017 posts)I should become a reporter . If all you have to do is speculate and make it up as you go .
JFKDem62
(383 posts)We are finally moving into the 21st century and the old rules are going by the way side.
Yavin4
(35,442 posts)Arazi
(6,829 posts)It really was a discussion point
Yavin4
(35,442 posts)Obama took that data into account and designed an election strategy to account for it. He lost the White vote, 72% to 39% in 2012.
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/
Arazi
(6,829 posts)If he's facing Trump, this election will be nothing like the past and I'd say the religious issues may (dare I say it) finally take second place to discussions about xenophobia, torture, fascism etc
Yavin4
(35,442 posts)If he were to win, his agenda is much, much larger than Obama's.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)when sitting at the negotiating table.
The Presidency has the "Dreamer in Chief" role as one of its jobs. Go to the moon, transform voting rights, institute national pollution controls, anti-nuclear proliferation treaties, rural electrification, national highway system - all of these were big unrealistic dreams at one time.
Someone had to articulate these ideas even as they had no idea how that would evolve in the Congress. Some never managed to effect that idea during their presidency (JFK and his man on the moon speech in 1961) but the idea took hold and created an enormous space race (man goes to moon 1969i that has transformed our world in so many ways.
You have to start though with the big idea. I don't know if Bernie can get even one idea passed but his ideas MUST pass sooner or later. We need universal healthcare as a right. We need to get corruption out of government. We need to stop interfering in the Middle East
JFKDem62
(383 posts)Your question brings me a lot of pleasure, it means that times have changed
to the point young people cannot even imagine what the times were like before Obama was elected.
Wow, amazing in a really neat way.
Just like when I was young, women getting into any professional/graduate program was difficult.
Today, it is difficult to believe that could have happened.
Racism and sexism were both rampant and widespread.
A female or AA being elected president was totally unthinkable.
It is sad but true.
We do have the Democratic Party to thank for the many advances we enjoy and take for granted today.
awake
(3,226 posts)Taking care of people, doing to others as you would wants others to do unto you, these are so anti religion?
Armymedic88
(251 posts)Matthew 19:21-
Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.
Human101948
(3,457 posts)How, then, was one to know if they were one of the elect? The answer: material success. If a businessman's coffers were fat and he was benefiting from what appeared to be a shrewd and effective business acumen, then surely it is evidence that the Almighty had smiled on him, welcoming him, perhaps, into the Divine's august company. This, of course, is a ready-made philosophy for any self-flattering elite - no matter what the century - anxious to justify their good fortune as divinely mandated.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/21526-calvin-and-jobs-why-the-right-hates-but-still-needs-social-welfare
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)There is right wing Calvinism of the kind you describe. And there is left wing Calvinism, which is basically the opposite.
In South Africa, where I grew up, Calvinism gave rise to apartheid. It was also an important part of the resistance to apartheid. While some Calvinist churches are extremely conservative, their conservatism tends to be different from the conservatism of evangelicalism, which is rooted in a different religious tradition. And other churches in the Calvinist tradition are extremely liberal: the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Church of Christ, etc.
Not to defend Calvinism against well-deserved criticism, but the picture is complex.
Human101948
(3,457 posts)In this country Calvinists are the inspiration for the following observation--
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnkennet107301.html
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)I've lived here for nearly 20 years, and did my Ph.D. in theology here. The good Calvinists include the Presbyterian Church USA (very concerned with social justice, ordains gays, etc.), the United Church of Christ (Obama's denomination), etc.
We're a mixed bag!
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need."
Apparently, the word of God isn't for the people of God?
Armymedic88
(251 posts)Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)Yavin4
(35,442 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)not a slam on all christians, just the fake republican ones
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)All organized efforts compete against each other. All organized efforts want the world to be molded into its particular image. One has to replace the other. You have to replace God with The State.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What does agnosticism have to do with a buy one get one free blizzard? Nothing. but it must be true!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Supporting Hillary Clinton while wanting an atheist president is a lot like advocating a vegan lifestyle while eating a box of McNuggets.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I talk about clensing out while smoking a bowl.
Talk about excersizing while eating donuts. It is what it is. Honestly, I discuss working out all the time but I'm always eating instead. Might get fat maybe.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)who knew.
Land Shark
(6,346 posts)It was only in response to FDRs successful New Deal, promoted with religiius references, that they tried to harness Christianit for conservative political purposes, leading to "under God" in the 50s, etc.
To this day, religion goes both ways politically so the assumptions in the title of this piece are pretty massive and controversial.
Lone_Wolf
(1,603 posts)The business elites in the US have been hostile towards socialists and the progressive labor movement. Religion is just one of their tools.
ConsiderThis_2016
(274 posts)...Go figure
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)But in practical matters, single payer would present a problem in the US because of abortion.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Or, Americans MAY be too diverse to vote for a WASP.
Using MAY, you can say almost anything at all. And fsck 538 for throwing Medicare for All under the bus in its zeal to help Hillary, which is approaching insane levels. It's already thrown it's own credibility under the bus trying to create self-fulfilling prophesies that help her.
senz
(11,945 posts)It's only about six minutes, gets a bit drippy with the music, but it's Bernie, and it's real.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)That's all it is.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I don't embrace socialism but I have no fear of the concept either.
Then again, we don't have a socialist running so it isn't a concern except for republicans who call both Clinton and Sanders socialists.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The Acts of the Apostles is so full of Socialism that if you quote it to Christians they think it's Karl Marx. 'From each according to ability, to each according to need' is New Testament and it is what the people who knew Jesus in the story did when he was gone and they were trying to live righteously without him. They pooled all resources and shared according to need, 100%.
The first couple to hold some back for themselves were struck dead by God. Struck dead by God voluntarily. I mean to say it surprised everyone watching, and it was two separate events. They both lied, both died.
Once the discussion is on, and it is, religion has no choice but to acknowledge their own damn texts at some point. Sermons will be preached, and alter calls will be made and many will be answered.
But without looking at the link, how much too religious does 538 say Michigan is?
G_j
(40,367 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/methodist_1.shtml
terms but it can adequately be described 'as a broad-based endeavour for the
betterment of men and women of the working classes'. It began in the early years
of the nineteenth century and culminated in the birth of the Labour Party at the
start of the twentieth. The English Labour Movement was not in itself explicitly
religious but it was nevertheless permeated by religion both in its origin and in its
subsequent development. Its roots lay in three areas in particular: the French
revolutionary spirit of 'liberty, fraternity and equality', early Owenite socialism and
John Wesley's Methodist religion of the poor.
http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/14-1_036.pdf
Then, of course, there's liberation theology.
kgnu_fan
(3,021 posts)https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/pope-to-church-benefactors-we-dont-need-your-blood-money/2016/03/02/0c63cb56-e06f-11e5-8c00-8aa03741dced_story.html
Francis railed against employers who mistreat and underpay their workers during his general audience Wednesday. Its a theme the Jesuit pope has frequently emphasized, denouncing how the wealthy exploit the poor and working class for their own profit, often subjecting workers to slave-like conditions.
Francis told the crowd in a sunny St. Peters Square that when he thinks about church benefactors who offer donations that are fruit of the blood of exploited workers, he tells them: Please, take your checks back and burn them.
He added: The people of God and the church dont need dirty money. They need hearts that are open to the mercy of God.
* I think all great teaching (religion or otherwise) says the same thing: Share what you have with everyone. Peace.
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)"Hillary has a 99%+ chance of winning in Michigan!"
november3rd
(1,113 posts)Check out
Noyes, John Humphrey, 1811-1886: History of American Socialisms (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott and Co., 1870)
oh, yeah... there's also Acts 2:44, 45
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)and Americans have well and truly embraced them.
Second, the anti-progressive Bible Belt has pretty much already spoken and they did not turn out strong enough to end the primary and this region is basically irrelevant to the general election because no Republican has to campaign there because those states are a lock for them.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)beedle
(1,235 posts)that what exists now?
Any health care arrangement needs to deal with these same problems.
Even the old private insurance system had to, and would continue to have to, deal with that issue.
This is nonsense .. the religious right is a force that needs 'dealing with' no matter what 'the bent' of the government.
One might even argue that single payer would be beneficial for the religious right anti-abortion side, as when there is a single large access point into the system then there is only one point they have to attack in order to invoke their anti-abortion agenda onto others.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)...from the usual source.