And to stop being told I have to fucking choose.

to rectify through the legislative process and what would be the long term consequences of economic correction?

We always had poverty but racism was artificially created.

This was the implicit message to poor Southern Whites, no matter how bad you're circumstances are slaves are worse off.

The same message has been passed down through Jim Crow and to some degree today, the result being poverty and welfare in many white peoples minds has been subconsciously linked to race, that was Reagan's subliminal message and his legacy.

It's primarily black people sucking off the teat of government so being poor became just an inherent personal or racial vice, it isn't so much about hard working white people even though in fact more whites live in poverty.

This isn't just tied to the U.S. it's a universal problem.

This is a long read but worth it.

Racism - at least the American flavor of it - is indeed an intentional construct.

You're on the right path yourself though, in that the black-white-native divide in the early years of our country was invented and manipulated primarily to keep the underclasses from rising up against the ruling class, or abandoning for the Native nations.

it was lust for their land and precious minerals that fueled racism.

It's much easier to conquer and abuse a people once you have demonized them but it was greed that drove it.

As I posted in the above article, Americans aren't different from other peoples when it comes to the human frailties of envy, greed, resentment, hate and fear, this is universal and the author in the U. N. Report has studied societies around the world.

Having said that, there has always been a core of people that resent others that aren't like them, this human frailty is played on and magnified to suit or justify economic exploitation by those in power.

Racism wasn't invented in America but that seed was fertilized, pruned and watered in to a toxic plant for economic reasons.

Racism, poverty and unbridled greed are inextricably linked.

Based on fighting for resourses. No colonizing projects and forced slavery based on color and religion.

In prehistoric or cave days contact with people of different colors or even religion such as it was would've been more limited.

We all come from the same tribe down in africa, starting long ago. We aint different type of humans like cro magnon and neandertals.

I am talking american racism. We created that shit. We need to end it not justify it's existance.

Color based.

for economic reasons.

Slavery had existed in Africa, from Africa into Europe and Asia long before America came on the scene.

his economic policies were passed greatly equalizing our dysfunctional society which in its current form creates great deals of stress; financial and emotional, racism would be in the long term diminished as a result.

I do hope that one day racism can all but disappear into the dustbin of history and I believe a more balanced society would go a long way toward those ends.

Having said that, in the meantime Institutional racism should be called out, condemned and to the utmost ability of government prosecuted, however on personal levels and interactions that would be infinitely more difficult for government to rectify.

This will take time.

Peace to you.

People have been discriminating on the basis of color for millenia. Anything that can be used to group people together as 'other' has been used as groups for discrimination. Humans are very tribal in their outlook.

Birth to death slavery of ones entire line just because of being black? No. That was ALL OUR INVENTION.

But it doesn't really matter where it started first, it certainly doesn't change how sick and twisted the whole thing is.

BUT on this you could not be more correct.

The nature of the institution of American slavery, particularly as practiced in the South (but also, to a large extent, in ALL of the Atlantic slave trade), is unique in world history. Moreover, the absolute unconscionable evil of American slavery, is unique in world history. It is by far the greatest human rights violation to have occurred since the dawn of humankind. Moreover, significant aspects of the institution have been continued through this very day, not just in the heart and mind of the dominant culture, but in its policies.

Private property is the most obvious example, especially when we moved from a personal-property system to a private-property system.

As we disagree on issues.

You musta said something. I do not remember. Link if you want and I will see if I actually did that.

I am not going to spend a lot of time searching. I would think you would remember. I asked you at least a dozen times if you thought I was racist. You just deflected and never answered a simple yes or no question. You then went on vacation for a couple of more times.

Very sad in my opinion

To leave yours an opening. It is very easy to say, I have seen nothing you have posted as racist and I do not think you are until I do. But you can't, guilty until proven innocent, sadly

You know I would.

Until you decide they are not. Very sad actually. I do not care fore guilty until proven innocent. Very un-American and un-democratic

And remember who you're talking to... my people have seen NEITHER.

Ban overt racist practices with laws? Sure. All day long. Few congresscritters in their right mind would vote against THAT.

Ban racist hearts and minds and the covert actions those hearts and minds use to oppress?? Fucking never.

That's the folly of the Sanders "one dimension" argument.

Everybody should check them. Fire them. Write law after law and enforce that shit.

People change when their position in the world depend on them fixing themselves.

What law would you write that guarantees your realtor takes you to the rich neighborhood?

Fucking stupid or daft I can't figure out which.

That one.

Daft. Thanks for the answer.

My lawyer can extrapolate from there and a jury can decide. Get sued often and one WILL CHANGE HOW THEY OPERATE.

hoping the government will end racism and its oppression without addressing inequality in the bank line first.

And keep doing that...

And keep doing that...

And keep doing that...

In the meantime vote for people like Hillary Clinton who's never known discrimination in her fucking life... see how far that gets ya.

You get it. I have been posting a short time on this site compared to many who post here. I understand exactly what you are saying, and I agree with your premise. It is impossible to end racism by implementing laws to end it. If that were possible Native Americans and some African Americans would be living a much better life in this nation today. Economic issues can help address some of the misery we suffer at the hands of those that would take advantage because they are economically superior, but it won't change racist behavior. Think of Red Lining by the banks, think of Pay Day Loans by loan sharks that prey on the citizens of this nation who are economically incapable of supporting themselves. Red Lining stopped even those who were capable of paying their bills. Just think of the many situations where minorities are charged more for items such as homes, cars, and many other things that we don't even know about, those things have been proven. Look at the Healthcare industry and how it is racially prejudice against minorities who have the same insurance, the same ability to pay, but have to more often than not visit a clinic or hospital where they have to be serviced by someone who is white. Many who have grown up with racist bias.

Arawak men and women, naked, tawny, and full of wonder, emerged from their villages onto the island's beaches and swam out to get a closer look at the strange big boat. When Columbus and his sailors came ashore, carrying swords, speaking oddly, the Arawaks ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts. He later wrote of this in his log:

They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane... . They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.

These Arawaks of the Bahama Islands were much like Indians on the mainland, who were remarkable (European observers were to say again and again) for their hospitality, their belief in sharing. These traits did not stand out in the Europe of the Renaissance, dominated as it was by the religion of popes, the government of kings, the frenzy for money that marked Western civilization and its first messenger to the Americas, Christopher Columbus.

Columbus wrote:

As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts.

The information that Columbus wanted most was: Where is the gold? He had persuaded the king and queen of Spain to finance an expedition to the lands, the wealth, he expected would be on the other side of the Atlantic-the Indies and Asia, gold and spices. For, like other informed people of his time, he knew the world was round and he could sail west in order to get to the Far East.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

Time for more laws. Period. Aint working good enough so more damn laws are needed.

the first set of civil rights laws spawned a branch of the legal community who specialized in contravening those laws by one means or another , the second will do the same, as will the 3rd and so on

sadly to one degree or another racism is hard wired into American culture but what can be done is setting up economics in such a way that segregation by race and social class becomes difficult if not all but impossible, albeit there will always be those who self segregate in one way or another

We have to get the dialogue going to the point that we are steeped in discussion. To where we have a national anti racism campaign. Otherwise? The benefits NEVER REACH US. We get left out in many different ways. So, race needs to get settled. Period. Might need to involve more targeted affirmative action. But without those modifiers to the plans, I am not interested at the fuck all. It's a con game unless race is accounted for. Just like the fraud of the New Deal, leaving us out.

And if we cannot get agreement from day one that race will be accounted for and get binders on that, fuck it, the american govt never keeps its promises to dark folks, we do not trust it.

Being able to sue a person/corporation/institution into the ground for being bigoted is fucking great. But if it's reliant on the victim being able to pay the costs of legal action, doesn't that still lock a lot of marginalized people (because one of the effects of their marginalization is having less/no money) out of said remedy?

Now, if we're talking *criminal* penalties for being racist that's different.

But how about on top of that we add in, say, universal no/low cost out of pocket health care and a 15 dollar minimum wage? Suddenly that same victim of racism is now better placed to afford the legal fees required to fight against racial discrimination in your scenario.

Of course there are other ways but I was just responding to your specific example.

We need a bill to provide legal services for the oppressed and discriminated. Funded by the govt that allowed those bigotries to be baked into our society.

I don't know why one can't come with the other. Not saying the OP believes that, just that the whole discussion is weird to me. As a Democrat, I want it social and economic justice.

Respect!!

You spent the entire span of August to February insisting that social justice and economic justice are mutually incompatible, and that the latter must be discarded for the former. You and I went around about this plenty, where I maintained - and still maintain - that they are not exclusive and must be worked together, while you insisted that I must be a white supremacist because of that.

I will not fight with you in front of the kids, Scoot. It's not healthy for them.

You made it abundantly clear that you have no interest in "having both" and spent a LONG time screaming at people who did.

You tried to label it "Third Way progressivism," remember? Much like Milhouse, it failed to become a meme

otherwise you wouldn't be pretending to care about both issues now when clearly five months ago poor people were expendable including but not limited to POC.

I think it would be pushed in the House and Senate yesterday if the bill was on the table. But, we both know you can't write such a bill. I would vote to end it. It is not as if I have never experienced such a thing at least as a secondary if not a primary victim.

I cannot expect shit that I want but you can? Did you write a bill? But you are satisfied with his policy so I should be too or write a bill? Serious? And ya wonder why we are not interested. He already speaks to your issues so I have the burden of writing a bill a getting it to congress, but all you need to do is vote and you get what you want. See why we think his revolution has not a damn thing to do with us? I cannot ask for anything that might help blacks without being told that I need to write a damn bill, something they never even dream of being asked to do to get policy they want. I got to do so much extra work.

no star But seriously do you think I would have moved to states away from my family if I wasn't afraid of racist? So, once again I would love to see racism end. No one should have to worry about racist jackals going after their kids.

Tired of that lie that people wanna believe because it's easier than doing something real. We are too complacent. All of us have inventories we need to clear out and fix up. Me too. Everyone.

Instead of insisting that white people fix it while at the same time sitting down and shutting up while no one tells them any thing cuz they already should know and it's their problem just isn't gonna work. I am pretty sure it won't work anyway.

And stop acting like nothing needs fixing. Cede the power that they did not deserve over the rest of us in the first place. Stop using force of numbers to get the power to make all the decisions on race.

And I have seen you take them on. Yet, you are still kinda swinging wildly into the crowd. Meh no skin off my nose.

I can just go by what I read. Taking on people that attack you? Yes, I have seen that so...

My bookmarks are filled with stuff I have found.

She can't talk about breaking up banks, because that wouldn't end racism. I agree, breaking up the banks wouldn't end racism.

So i'm sure that any day now, Miss Scarlett will come up with a comprehensive plan for ending racism, once and for all. Imagine my surprise that apparently preserving the financial status of her big donors is actually the centerpiece to ending racism. Who knew?

And after she ends racism, i'm sure she'll get around to reparations. I know that you were real interested in reparations there after Mr. Coates came after sanders on it, i have to assume that you, like he, are a fair-minded person, and hold Richwhitelady to the exact same standard you hold the Jewish guy to, riiiiight?

*cough, cough* sorry, had a little *cough* tickle in my throat there, that wasn't a giggle, I promise. heeee! Wheezing! ghee hee hee!

But she at least says we need more laws. I say, good. She can do that much, at the very least. People don't wanna hear bout that cause they know we just need jobs and free college and legal weed and to get out of prison, maybe a bit of welfare. Talking about the racism part is DIVISIVE and I'm probably gon get called a race baiter soon.

That would make a major dent at the very least wrt ending racism.

Like just off the top of my head -

Giving the right to vote back to felons the moment they complete their term/parole (and this would make every swing state lean Dem as a side effect assuming it's a Dem congress/administration that pushes it through)
Implementing a quota for interviews of non-white job applicants who are qualified
Implementing strict penalties for redlining and other exploitative practices aimed at AA homeowners/prospective homeowners
Removing suburban mortgage deductions to not incentivize white flight (the mortgage deduction is literally one of the biggest examples of welfare/free stuff in our society and it's primarily aimed at white middle to upper class families)
Banning payday lenders and replacing them with post office banks
Designating the KKK and similar groups as terrorist groups and aggressively investigating potential racial terrorism (imagine if DHS had dropped the hammer on Roof or the Bundy boys)
Removing 1A protections from hate speech (goes with above)

like this is just what I came up with in like, 10 minutes.

You know who hasn't?

It was about "we can't make a law to fight racism" which is categorically untrue. I agree with bravenak that we need more laws to cover and punish more racist practices.

Income inequality and racism are structurally fundamental to America; the latter being invented to produce the former. They can be made somewhat better.

Because I don't vote in push polls based upon false assumptions.

Or not. Either way, your avatar pretty much dictated how you'd vote. As I predicted.

Doo dah. Oh de doo dah day.

I didn't figure you'd be willing to put your fingers on the line.

and meaningless rhetoric with no basis in reality,

So you're saying the government possesses NO mechanism with which to make the racism situation better.

Got it.

You own that.

Come back to reality and we can discuss the six issues with connections to another two dozen surrounding your simplistic and almost childish views expressed in your push poll.

It's okay. I've seen enough people like you come and go at DU in the last ten years to fill the stands at Indy.

Why would I expect anything more than such a fallacy from somebody who would reue complex issues to silliness in a push poll?

It's a false choice and a distraction. Both are strands of the braid of social injustice. Forcing a choice instigates division among people who should be forming coalitions to address all social injustice. Also, I don't think you solve injustice, or income inequality, or racism. I don't believe we are capable of building utopias. But you can decide that you do not want to live in a world where the gap between elites and commoners is so immense, where people and institutions discriminate on the basis of race (and class and gender and disability and,....) so you work with others to make the world a better place

and don't want to deal with it.

Bothered enough to say "PASS", even though you needn't have responded at all.

When you wake up in your middle class neighborhood and your neighbors are black, muslim, indian, asian, etc. after a while you just think of them as your neighbors.

If you take a walk downtown and you see poor minorities trying to keep warm or desperately trying to make some money, not so much.

Though it's not entirely due to their social democratic policies, and there are still real discrimination issues in Europe. Racism simply isn't built into their national fabric and identity the way it is in the USA (which was fundamentally a slave colony until 1865 with a majority of its presidents prior to Lincoln southern white slaveholders).

And you oughta hear those folks go on and on about Gypsie, Eastern Europeans, Muslims, and Jews.

Now if you are a black Christian from America - you are aok. But that's because you appreciate the freedom and acceptance - and well - even my husband's almost 97 year old former Fascist (you can find him in all kinds of pics with Beni) would tell you - black Christians (in particular from our hemisphere) traditionally have moved there and completely assimilated.

I find it funny that America wants to be color blind yet on my citizenship application I point blank got to list myself as Mulatta. Just from a health services perspective (have a gnarly genetic disease) that's smart citizenship and health care access vetting.


From 2007 to 2009 I had a ld relationship with a man based in Lyon France - and he was foaming at the mouth against Arabs and Muslims - Chinese. Black people! Fine! Hispanic people Fine! Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) Fine! I got rid of him when he was pretty vile to a young Algerian girl that could have been my a million times hotter younger sister who was the biggest sweet pea in the world. He acted like her Muslim was going to rub off on me. Yeah - got rid of him and replaced with a man without a prejudiced bone in his body.

Now Me Irishman! He had no prejudice.

My Ghananian - he would smile in a white persons face in America - but he really believed in keeping to 'one's own'.

Toronto has many middle class neighborhoods and even upper class neighborhoods full of all races.

Due to an immigration boom in the 1990's some of the wealthiest neighborhoods are full of Chinese immigrants from Taiwan and Hong Kong.

During the 2000's many middle class neighborhoods filled up with people from India.

There are poorer neighborhoods but they are multi-racial.

Walking anywhere in the city you won't see severely disadvantaged people of color the way we do here.

Actually all over Canada. First job out of university was working for a snow making company -

I don't know if the Cree folk would agree with you.

Native Canadians have a sort of self-imposed lack of economic mobility because they tend to stay on reservations in less than economically prosperous areas.

This makes them appear to be more like disadvantaged minorities in the United States also locked into inner city situations because of lack of opportunity.

This doesn't deter from my original point.

If your neighbours, classmates, and workmates are muilti-racial and multi-cultural you become color blind.

follow, but focus on changing or creating laws to address institutional racism. Oprah could get killed by a cop or trigger happy neighbor just for driving/walking while black--that's not an issue that can be resolved through income equity.

But regarding your poll, both issues are equally important. They go hand in hand. Are you familiar with how past attempts to create a middle class in this country systematically excluded non-whites?

What bullshit she spews.