2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhen Hillary sends your job to India, China and/or Vietnam...
I guess we can still admire her pluckiness.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Others don't. Be careful whom you choose.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)CalvinballPro
(1,019 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Some of Bernies ideas sound ok until you realize that eventually we'll be handing over all that govt control over to Republicans, who will then use it all in hostage negotiations against Democrats. It will be Democrats choosing between cutting single payer healthcare, cutting foodstamps, or a govt shutdown.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)If only to protect domestic production from a "race to the bottom". That's why nations have sovereignty.
Some presidents do away with sovereignty because they believe in free trade, and consider a race to the bottom an acceptable risk / a desired outcome.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Trump advocates a trade war.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)I think I spot a strawman there... A YUUUGE strawman.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Leveling the playing field at the level of living wages, so to speak?
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)I think your strawman argument is a bit too obvious.
revbones
(3,660 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Maybe 'workers of the world' do? If we are leading the way and promoting our values?
Promoting - not imposing.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)Bush/Clinton tag teamwork against the American working voter.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)When corporations like Walmart began demanding lower-priced goods and suggested China as the source - or they would put American corporations out of business by buying Chinese corporate products, including SOE's - MFN was just a response to reality, for the American consumer.
Isolationism and protectionism hurts everyone. We live in a global economy - and it is done.
Our wages now includes the world's wages!
Armstead
(47,803 posts)It makes no sense to take out a knife, and make the cut and bleeding woirse.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)when stitches are needed will only lead to a longer healing period. We are now competing with global wages. Starting a trade war will only delay world wages increasing. We're half way through the global pipeline. There's really no turning back at this point. I have no problem making adjustments to TPP but we can't live in a bubble in an increasingly shrinking world.
But politicians make it easier along with actual tax breaks for moving operations overseas. No or little import tax on sending goods back into the US. Not taxing US companies on profits that are made from operations outside the US.
Companies shouldn't be rewarded for leaving the US.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)Which allow companies to take advantage of the lower wages and no employee protections overseas.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)We live in a global economy now. That trend will not be reversed with legislation or a lack of trade deals.
revbones
(3,660 posts)Spouting forth lines like "global economy" without an understanding for why jobs move overseas is just ignorance.
When tariffs were in place, it was not economically feasible to capture the cheaper labor because your costs remained the same. For example.
If it costs me $100 to manufacture a widget in the US because of various costs including $30 of labor (wages, insurance, etc...) and the labor in China would only cost $5, then a $25+ tariff would be the equalizer and the company would keep the job in the US because all things being equal the logistics would raise costs.
Now, that example under a normal free trade agreement, the tariff is removed. Now the determining factor is whether the logistics of shipping are cost-effective enough to avoid cutting too deep into the gains made from lower cost labor. In which case they have $25 per widget to play with, so the answer is usually yes, it's cheaper to manufacture and ship from overseas.
You've made a lot of comments here in this thread that ignore reality and how we got where we are. I would suggest reading some stuff before demonstrating such a lack of knowledge again.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)other countries will just accept it lying down. China would love it because they will be allowed to monopolize the Asian market, the fastest growing market in the world, because our exports would be shut out according to your thinking. Globalization cannot be reversed at this point. Trump shares your opinion, though.
Yavin4
(35,445 posts)Folks with less than HS diploma could earn a middle class wage. That world started dying in the 60s and that trend continued for the rest of the century.
Those glorified 1950s mfg jobs are not coming back, no matter who you elect as president. We have a global economy now.
bjo59
(1,166 posts)H2O Man
(73,581 posts)this shit up. Amazing, isn't it?
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)Hillary is for jobs going overseas and reduced wages in America. She has been for nearly 25 years, at least.
djean111
(14,255 posts)if Hillary is the cause of it.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)How insincere.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)But then, she has to be elected first.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Neither the President nor Congress has the power to tell a company that they will not move elsewhere. This argument makes no sense.
As much as I would like to see the U.S. become a manufacturing mecca, again, with high paying union jobs, the nature of technology means we will never again have that time of jobs economy.
A great article from 538 explains why manufacturing is not coming back.
Manufacturing Jobs Are Never Coming Back
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)Trade deals are the domain of the president.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Globalism driven by technology, and the ability to move a factory and take advantage of cheap labor, and information technology that allows just on time delivery enable companies to increase profits for owners and investors is what drives manufacturing from the country.
It is cheaper to kill a chicken here, send it to china for processing, and then ship it back than to pay for people to process it here. That is not TPP, NAFTA, or any other trade deal. It is the result of technology and cheap labor.
A President could initiated a pure isolationist policy and companies will leave because the can make higher profits using cheaper labor.
And all those jobs will never come back, no matter what a candidate promises.
Manufacturing Jobs Are Never Coming Back
Technology has changed and big, labor intensive factories, are going away.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)well they do in China. Let them live with the work force they love in the nations with the worst human rights violations
That would be perfect. Let's see how fast they run back to the US.
China would hang the sons of bitches at Goldman.
Or simply shoot them in the head.
Let them live in Mexico and have them send their kids to the schools there.
Perfect.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)chasing low wages because the current technology makes it easy, and most foreign countries do not have labor friendly laws.
Higher profits takes them to other countries.
If they move back, it will be with highly automated factories that use a tiny fraction of the labor force that would have been necessary two decades ago.
China would not hang Goldman. They have set up places where they have their own millionaires and bankers. The leaders of the country are wealthy. Google "List of Chinese millionaires by networth." they have billionaires. China's Communist government has adopted their own version of Capitalism.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)But I could be wrong.
astrophuss42
(290 posts)The majority of people who are privileged enough to look forward to a HRC presidency are old enough to be retired or in a skilled position.
Response to astrophuss42 (Reply #11)
PonyUp This message was self-deleted by its author.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Priorities!!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That doesn't happen.
And that's who a president employs.
Oh, you're talking about companies offshoring jobs to other nations to save money and moreso, due to labor arbitrage.
So take it up at the next meeting of the investors.
Oh, you don't invest?
Then you have no right to tell the companies how they should be run. If you want that right, invest.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)In an effort to blame her for every problem in the world today. At least that would be more honest.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)Both quotes from Hillary...both lies.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)For now.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)The fascist worldview you have presented as your own doesn't exist, and I have every right. In fact corporations are bound by laws of US at a minimum. And those tax free operation I. India do not pay for the resources being used Olin the US.
Oh yes. It may surprise you corporation are not a sovereign nation.
Seems like I've heard your shpiel before.. is this Cliven Bundy... .?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)the same companies that were bailed out by us time and again, the same companies that would be the first to demand us help and solider if a Cuba were to claim their properties?
Sorry folks, there is a civil society, and all the money in any account foreign and domestic, will not help you if the corporations get rid of that idea, why, because then then billionaires will eat the millionaires, the millionaires will eat the upper middle class, and there will be no crumbs left.
The people who speak as if there is so such thing as society are the first ones that will demand help when someone wants to do to them what they do to everyone else.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The only people who have an absolute right to drive the direction of a corporation are those who are invested through their right to vote on matters related to the board of directors.
OF course, you do have an absolute right to bang your head against the wall and that will be every bit as effective as whining about what corporations do.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)or not to donate one red cent to the politicians that serve those corporations regardless of whose badge they wear. I truly hope that supporters of Hillary are already working on trying to sweet talk the people they insulted into helping them come November. I know Hillary is hoping they are. Not that we will not be doing our best to defeat Trump, but frankly, do not think that as Hillary tries to shift into her "unity" phase, she will not see that, like Bernie Sanders, it is possible to have your followers become your worst enemy.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)If you gave up the internet, moved off the grid and ate grass, you MIGHT be able to boycott all the "evil corporations".
pampango
(24,692 posts)If trade is the cause of our problems, why does it not cause worse problems in progressive countries that trade 2-3 times as much as the US does?
I doubt that our relatively minuscule level of trade is going to change no matter who gets elected in November (although there is a chance that Trump will trash the whole system) but we will still blame our problems on trade rather than on regressive taxes, 'right-to-work' or an ineffective safety net. And the 1% will keep laughing at us behind our backs. They know what would help the middle class and hurt them and it ain't restricting trade. (Germany, Sweden and Canada can attest to that, too. Trade ain't the issue; it's taxes, unions and safety nets.)
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)then there are the multiplier effects of destroyed communities. Your propaganda is pure BS when it comes to rationalizing the wholesale destruction of middle class America so Wall Street can take advantage of slave labor.
pampango
(24,692 posts)except for those two? Are you suggesting that if we traded even less, that would somehow solve our economic problems? It is funny that actual progressive countries have not arrived at that conclusion and actually trade 2 to 3 times more than the US does.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)Civil engineering
Electrical engineering
Mechanical engineering
Aerospace
Programming
Pharmaceuticals
General research and development
Architecture
Paralegal
Medical records
Graphic arts
Design
Fashion
Radiology
Networking
Web design
Call centers
Financial planning
Commercial investment, finance, banking
$60,000 for you degree with loans and you are fighting Asia by yourself with your own Government working against you.
When people talk about the new reality of global business they are really scolding you for wanting something more than a cardboard shack with open sewer.
After all, if it's good enough for Asia it should be good enough for the USA.
I don't understand how people like this can be Democrats but I guess they enjoy a few civil liberties like a right to an abortion, gay marriage , etc. But on economic issues they might as well be die hard GOP.
vintx
(1,748 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)They make me vomit.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)They aren't even worth $2 a day that they get in India.
They have no skills other than sending our jobs to slave labor in Asia.
Response to whereisjustice (Original post)
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whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)The middle class (like global warming) is real and not a left wing conspiracy... do you think they'll kill TPP?
Not a chance. They are just going to keep pouring gas on the fire.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)From her speech to AIPAC.