Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:19 PM Mar 2016

Look-either call Bernie a socialist, or call him a libertarian.

He can't be both.

(and no, he can't be a "libertarian socialist"-that's a word for one form of anarchism, and if Bernie was an anarchist he wouldn't be running for the presidency).

Are we all quite clear on terms now?

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Look-either call Bernie a socialist, or call him a libertarian. (Original Post) Ken Burch Mar 2016 OP
I can think of a few terms for Mr. Sanders... TheProgressive Mar 2016 #1
Ugh! Patriot! The Republicans have hijacked that word. Maybe "real patriot," would be better. kerry-is-my-prez Mar 2016 #11
I've heard of libertarians who like him gollygee Mar 2016 #2
The power of truthtelling. FlatBaroque Mar 2016 #4
It seems odd to me too, but ... surrealAmerican Mar 2016 #13
because some like to pretend that anti-censorship, anti-surveillance, anti-drug war "libertarianism" Warren DeMontague Mar 2016 #23
I don't care RobertEarl Mar 2016 #3
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2016 #15
Then too RobertEarl Mar 2016 #19
How about calling him a great person who knows a lot and cares about America and Americans. ladjf Mar 2016 #5
Actually he can be both. There are right-libertarians and Warren Stupidity Mar 2016 #6
I wouldn't have thought that was possible, but I'm interested. SusanCalvin Mar 2016 #27
It's called anarchism. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2016 #32
I like Bernie, I don't like Ayn Rand... Skid Rogue Mar 2016 #7
Yeah...his tragic secret is that his name is a combined tribute to Ayn Rand AND RuPaul. Ken Burch Mar 2016 #8
LMAO!!!!! Skid Rogue Mar 2016 #14
That's not where his name came from, so I hear, but I wouldn't find it surprising. SusanCalvin Mar 2016 #28
This is how it was explained to me Cheese Sandwich Mar 2016 #9
No one has ever called me a care bear before. Warren DeMontague Mar 2016 #25
His foreign policy is libertarian (more in the Gary Johnson vein) ... Onlooker Mar 2016 #10
only if you assume that no one but libertarians question the idea Ken Burch Mar 2016 #18
Not exactly ... Onlooker Mar 2016 #22
Look - either call him a democrat, or call him a socialist. NCTraveler Mar 2016 #12
Not the same thing, actually. Ken Burch Mar 2016 #16
One sentence I typed meant something. Nt NCTraveler Mar 2016 #17
Many sentences you have typed have meant things. Ken Burch Mar 2016 #20
I think "socialist libertarian" is what Noam Chomsky calls himself ucrdem Mar 2016 #21
Yes, he can be a libertarian socialist. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2016 #24
Bernie is a socialist ... salinsky Mar 2016 #26
Now that's funny! redstateblues Mar 2016 #31
Has someone been calling him a libertarian? drm604 Mar 2016 #29
It's been one of the weirder memes against Bernie. n/t. Ken Burch Mar 2016 #33
Not supporting him in primary, but I would not call him a Libertarian. Far too many of them are Hoyt Mar 2016 #30
 

TheProgressive

(1,656 posts)
1. I can think of a few terms for Mr. Sanders...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:28 PM
Mar 2016

Statesperson. Patriot. Democratic Socialist...

And they are all good!

kerry-is-my-prez

(8,133 posts)
11. Ugh! Patriot! The Republicans have hijacked that word. Maybe "real patriot," would be better.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:14 PM
Mar 2016

"The Patriot Act."

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
2. I've heard of libertarians who like him
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:30 PM
Mar 2016

Which seems odd to me as he is very much not a libertarian. I don't understand why he'd appeal to them at all.

surrealAmerican

(11,360 posts)
13. It seems odd to me too, but ...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:23 PM
Mar 2016

... a lot of people who call themselves "libertarian", don't really understand what that means. Many of them are simply people who think marijuana should be legalized, and are anti-war.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
23. because some like to pretend that anti-censorship, anti-surveillance, anti-drug war "libertarianism"
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:51 PM
Mar 2016

is totes the EXACT SAME THING as privatize fire departments, drown government in a bathtub "libertarianism".

It's convenient when people don't want to actually own up to the fact that they secretly support shit like censorship, unconstitutional spying, or putting pot smokers in prison.... so they can call their opponents names instead.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
3. I don't care
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:39 PM
Mar 2016

Just make sure he is called Mr. President come Jan. 20, 2019

As for the smears the H camp dishes out, well, lets just call them what those are: mere smears straight from the dear's rears.

Bless their hearts.

Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
6. Actually he can be both. There are right-libertarians and
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:56 PM
Mar 2016

left-libertarians. The Libertarian Party and the libertarian faction of the Republican Party are all right-libertarians. Plenty of people on the left are anti-authoritarian left libertarian socialists. Like me for example. Sanders is somewhere over on the libertarian socialist side as well.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
27. I wouldn't have thought that was possible, but I'm interested.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:01 PM
Mar 2016

Might I trouble you for a suggested link or two?

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
32. It's called anarchism.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:19 AM
Mar 2016

We are socialists in the anarchist tradition. The First International had two main factions. The anarchists led by Mikhail Bakunin, and the Marxists, led by Karl Marx. The enmity between the two were such that Marx out-maneuvered Bakunin and expelled his followers.

Anarchists characterized the State and Capitalism are inseparable, and should be destroyed to affect revolution; The Marxists believed in revolution in stages, and so the ideal march to revolution was to use the State to establish "The dictatorship of the proletariat," and the State would "wither away."

Bakunin turned out to be correct, foreseeing the failed Bolshevik revolution some 50 years later. He was not alive to enjoy his vindication, though.

A great starter is "Anarchism: From Theory to Practice" by Daniel Guerin. It's free and available online.

"Marxism has tended to be a theoretical or analytical discourse about revolutionary strategy.

Anarchism has tended to be an ethical discourse about revolutionary practice." ~ David Graeber

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
8. Yeah...his tragic secret is that his name is a combined tribute to Ayn Rand AND RuPaul.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:04 PM
Mar 2016


(btw...those two could have starred in the BEST production of THE ODD COUPLE ever).

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
28. That's not where his name came from, so I hear, but I wouldn't find it surprising.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:03 PM
Mar 2016

I had the usual high-school interest in Rand, but it didn't take me too long to despise her.

 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
10. His foreign policy is libertarian (more in the Gary Johnson vein) ...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:10 PM
Mar 2016

... his domestic policy is social democratic, though it's unclear where he currently stands on states rights.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
18. only if you assume that no one but libertarians question the idea
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:40 PM
Mar 2016

Last edited Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

that US foreign policy must be predicated on an endless series of war.

 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
22. Not exactly ...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:47 PM
Mar 2016

... Look on trade and military matters Bernie is very much America first. He does not have that much interest in the plight of the oppressed around the world. Sure, he's better than anyone on the right, but he really has not been associated that much with even the most righteous issues abroad. Even on Ebola he was almost completely silent. He's really very libertarian on foreign affairs in general. The alternative of course is that he's a pacifist, as the socialist were in the 1910s, but I don't think that's the case.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
12. Look - either call him a democrat, or call him a socialist.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:21 PM
Mar 2016

But please stop calling him a democratic socialist.

Please take that as a joke.

Sanders is Sanders.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
16. Not the same thing, actually.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:38 PM
Mar 2016

I get it that you meant it as a joke but, unlike being a libertarian and a socialist all at once, being a democratic socialist is not an inherent contradiction.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
21. I think "socialist libertarian" is what Noam Chomsky calls himself
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:43 PM
Mar 2016

But as far as Sanders he seems much more the rib-rock Republican a.k.a. Libertarian than any flavor of socialist, leaving aside his rather flimsy campaign promises which will be forgotten before the train leaves the station of his last whistle stop.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
24. Yes, he can be a libertarian socialist.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:52 PM
Mar 2016

"All anarchists are socialists, though not all socialists are necessarily anarchists." Said at different times by both individualist anarchists, Adolf Fischer and Benjamin Tucker, referring to their brothers, the Marxists.

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, a socialist, was the first to declare himself am anarchist.

Before the events at the First International, when Marx expelled Bakunin and his anarchist sect, the prevailing theories on socialist organization was leaning towards the libertarian constructs. Even Marx was first enamored with Proudhon and his work, "What is Property?" They eventually had a falling out but not before Marx lifted his ideas on scientific socialism.

Now, granted, Sanders isn't an anarchist, but the degree of his anti-authoritarianism is sufficient for many anarchists.

salinsky

(1,065 posts)
26. Bernie is a socialist ...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:58 PM
Mar 2016

... I like him quite a bit.

Many of his supporters are glibertarians ...

... I like them not so much.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
30. Not supporting him in primary, but I would not call him a Libertarian. Far too many of them are
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:08 PM
Mar 2016

are racists.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Look-either call Bernie a...