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Baobab

(4,667 posts)
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:28 AM Mar 2016

Arizona's election appears to have been A LOT closer than we thought

Must read article at
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/sanders-currently-winning-democratic-primary-race-ill-prove-to-you_b_9528076.html




Bernie Sanders has terrible name recognition in states where he hasn’t advertised or campaigned yet; meanwhile, Hillary Clinton has universal name recognition everywhere. Realizing this, the Clinton camp pushed hard to rack up the early vote in every state where early voting was an option. They did this not primarily for the reason we’ve been told — because Clinton performs well among older voters, and older voters are more likely to vote early than other age demographics — but rather because they knew that early votes are almost always cast before the election season actually begins in a given state.

That’s right — in each state, most of the early primary voting occurs before the candidates have aired any commercials or held any campaign events. For Bernie Sanders, this means that early voting happens, pretty much everywhere, before anyone knows who he is. Certainly, early voting occurs in each state before voters have developed a sufficient level of familiarity and comfort with Sanders to vote for him.

But on Election Day — among voters who’ve been present and attentive for each candidate’s commercials, local news coverage, and live events — Sanders tends to tie or beat Clinton.

In fact, that’s the real reason Sanders does well in caucuses.

It’s not because caucuses “require a real time investment,” as the media likes to euphemistically say, but because caucuses require that you vote on Election Day rather than well before it.

Consider: in North Carolina, Hillary Clinton only won Election Day voting 52% to 48%. Given the shenanigans in evidence during the live voting there — thousands of college students were turned away from the polls due to insufficient identification under a new voter-suppression statute in the state — it wouldn’t be unfair to call that 4-point race more like a 2-point one (51% to 49% for Clinton).

Consider: on Super Tuesday 3, because early voting is always reported first, Clinton’s margins of victory were originally believed to be 25 points in Missouri, 30 points in Illinois, and 30 points in Ohio. Missouri, which doesn’t have conventional early voting, ended up a tie. Illinois ended up with a 1.8% margin for Clinton (after being a 42-point race in Clinton’s favor just a week earlier) and Ohio a 13.8% margin.



Hmmmmmmm...



Any one of us could do the math there. And yet the media never did.

Consider: in Arizona yesterday, the election was called almost immediately by the media, with Clinton appearing to “win” the state by a margin of 61.5% to 36.1%. Of course, this was all early voting. CNN even wrongly reported that these early votes constituted the live vote in 41% of all Arizona precincts — rather than merely mail-in votes constituting a percentage of the total projected vote in the state — which allowed most Americans to go to bed believing both that Clinton had won Arizona by more than 25 points and that that margin was the result of nearly half of Arizona’s precincts reporting their live-voting results. Neither was true.

In fact, as of the time of that 61.5% to 36.1% “win,” not a single precinct in Arizona had reported its Election Day results.

Indeed, more than two and a half hours after polls closed in Arizona, officials there had counted only 54,000 of the estimated 431,000 Election Day ballots.

That’s about 12%.

So how did Bernie Sanders do on Election Day in Arizona?

As of the writing of this essay (2:45 AM ET), Sanders was leading Clinton in Election Day voting in Arizona 50.2% to 49.8%, with just under 75,000 votes (about 17.3% of all Election Day votes) counted.

So imagine, for a moment, that early votes were reported to the media last rather than first. Which, of course, they quite easily could be, given that they’re less — rather than more — reflective of the actual state of opinion on Election Day. Were early votes reported last rather than first, Arizona as of 2:45 AM ET would have been considered not only too close to call but a genuine nail-biter. In fact, only 400 or so Election Day votes were separating the two Democratic candidates at that point — though the momentum with each new vote counted was quite clearly in Sanders’ favor.

So the question becomes, why does any of this matter? Does the point being made here — that Bernie Sanders is as or more popular than Hillary in both all the states he won and many of the states he didn’t — gain Sanders a single delegate? Does it move him one inch closer to being President?

No.

What it does do is explain why the Clinton-Sanders race is a 5-point race nationally — just a hair from being a statistical tie, given the margin of error — despite the media treating Clinton’s nomination as a foregone conclusion.

What it does do is explain how Clinton is “beating” Sanders among American voters despite having a -13 favorability rating nationally, as compared to Sanders’ +11 rating. That dramatic difference is possible because in favorability polling, pollsters only count voters who say they know enough about a candidate to form an opinion. That eliminates the sort of “early voters” who cast ballots for Hillary Clinton before having much of a handle on who Bernie Sanders is.


And what it does do is explain why Sanders outperforms Clinton against Donald Trump in nearly every state where head-to-head general-election polling data is available. While some of this is undoubtedly due to the fact that Sanders beats Clinton by between 30 and 40 points among Independents — itself a major warning sign for a Clinton candidacy this fall — the rest is explained by the fact that when voters come to know Bernie Sanders as well as they already know Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, they tend to prefer him to these two by clear margins.

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Arizona's election appears to have been A LOT closer than we thought (Original Post) Baobab Mar 2016 OP
Is this new math, 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2016 #1
Explains a lot about the EV margins, thx! The election day numbers we've seen don't make any sense zwielicht Mar 2016 #2
"185,638 early votes, and only 32,949 on election day!?" Tom Rinaldo Mar 2016 #3
Stop questioning! zwielicht Mar 2016 #4
It happens in AZ all the time dsc Mar 2016 #6
Not trying to be difficult here Tom Rinaldo Mar 2016 #8
Sorry but that's an absurd claim. 85% early is not even close to realistic. zwielicht Mar 2016 #9
Name recognition is how she got those early votes... TCJ70 Mar 2016 #5
k&R kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #7
17.7% is not close. hrmjustin Mar 2016 #10
Great point. Early voters are not influenced by later ads, coverage, and campaign events. thesquanderer Mar 2016 #11
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #12
That's one of the benefits of planning ahead mythology Mar 2016 #13
Ridiculous unsubstantiated speculation Dem2 Mar 2016 #14
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
1. Is this new math,
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:41 AM
Mar 2016
As of the writing of this essay (2:45 AM ET), Sanders was leading Clinton in Election Day voting in Arizona 50.2% to 49.8%, with just under 75,000 votes (about 17.3% of all Election Day votes) counted.

So imagine, for a moment, that early votes were reported to the media last rather than first. Which, of course, they quite easily could be, given that they’re less — rather than more — reflective of the actual state of opinion on Election Day. Were early votes reported last rather than first, Arizona as of 2:45 AM ET would have been considered not only too close to call but a genuine nail-biter. In fact, only 400 or so Election Day votes were separating the two Democratic candidates at that point — though the momentum with each new vote counted was quite clearly in Sanders’ favor.


Where, with positive integers: "A" + "B" < "B" + "A"; but, only if Bernie+?

zwielicht

(134 posts)
2. Explains a lot about the EV margins, thx! The election day numbers we've seen don't make any sense
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:04 PM
Mar 2016

If you look at the Maricopa county site: http://recorder.maricopa.gov/electionresults/screen2.aspx

It says 185,638 early votes, and only 32,949 on election day!?

Out of those 12,802 for Clinton and 19,883 for Sanders? What on earth is going on there?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
3. "185,638 early votes, and only 32,949 on election day!?"
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:08 PM
Mar 2016

Yeah, that sounds like a normal voting pattern alright

dsc

(52,160 posts)
6. It happens in AZ all the time
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:56 PM
Mar 2016

maybe because the know that there are huge lines on election day if they don't. BTW, Democrats have argued, repeatedly, and loudly, and over and over and over again for early voting. Now that apparently Bernie loses early voters it is all of the sudden a plot.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
8. Not trying to be difficult here
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:06 PM
Mar 2016

But I can't just take that on your word that it "happens all the time" in AZ. Heavy early voting, yes I can accept that, much more than is typical nationally, yeah sure. But 6 early votes for each one cast on election day? I need a little more documentation before just accepting that. The little that I have read so far shows that this is new, very much more pronounced than in prior presidential election cycles.

zwielicht

(134 posts)
9. Sorry but that's an absurd claim. 85% early is not even close to realistic.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:07 PM
Mar 2016

I've never seen that anywhere, and if there would have been a new record, why would people have to wait in line for hours and hours, some until 1:30am? In the same county it was 140k:113k in 2008: http://recorder.maricopa.gov/electionarchives/2008/02-05-2008%20Final%20Summary%20Report.pdf

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
5. Name recognition is how she got those early votes...
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:50 PM
Mar 2016

...which is good strategy, but terrible for the country. Clinton folks won't like to hear this, but it also plays to the fact that the more people get to know him the better he does. These people voted, most likely (not definitely), without knowing who Sanders was and it clearly made a difference.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
11. Great point. Early voters are not influenced by later ads, coverage, and campaign events.
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:21 PM
Mar 2016

Early voters pretty much tell you what the electorate thought a week or two ago. Bernie campaigns down to the wire and often has late surges, but that doesn't help win among those who already cast their votes.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
13. That's one of the benefits of planning ahead
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:25 PM
Mar 2016

The Obama campaign did the same thing. There's nothing stopping Sanders from doing the same thing.

But the article is based on a really stupid premise. There isn't a good reason to assume that the early voters would vote differently if they voted on election day. They felt strongly enough to take the time to vote early when the place to vote isn't necessarily around the corner. That takes effort thus indicating a stronger pull to the candidate.

Additionally the early voters match the Clinton demographics much more than they do Sanders demographics. And yet the article assumes they will vote based on a different sample on primary day. It's not plausible to assume that given the previous examples that older or minority voters are going to start to vote like millenials which make up a higher percentage of primary day voters.

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