2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIf you're registered as an Independent, then you have no right to complain about the Dem party
Last edited Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)
If you're not a member of the party, then you cannot complain about the order of the primaries, the caucuses, the Super Delegates, the debate schedule, NOTHING. You're not a member of the party, then you cannot complain about the rules of the party.
The Dem party is designed to service those who are members of the party. Those who have put in the time and effort to build it. You didn't want to be a part of that process, so now you want to file list of complaints? That's absurd.
--On edit--
For those who disagree, if you were in a union, paid your dues, attend meetings, etc., you would be okay with someone outside of the union having a voice on what your union should and should not do, and who gets to lead the union?
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)another 'party' over principle OP eh?
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)so that it benefits you. Got it.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)My reply here sums it up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511595454#post13
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)complain about republicans. See how this works? It doesn't. Anyone can complain about anyone. First amendment.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)brush
(53,922 posts)Big difference.
ContinentalOp
(5,356 posts)But why would you complain about their internal party business and rules? I've never once given any thought to how the republicans conduct their primaries. Why would I care? It doesn't affect me in the slightest because I'm not a republican.
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)This is not Independents Underground.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)'fair' is debatable
it's a swipe at those grass root elements that the DEM party should be seeking to grow the party not exclude
the current system has flaws, exposing and discussing those flaws should be occurring, not trying to be rammed down peoples throats to protect certain candidates
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)Your anger is misdirected by lashing out at the party.
HumanityExperiment
(1,442 posts)...for instance
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)the other guys. If you can't complain about dems, then dems can't complain about repugs.
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)If you want to complain about Dems, simply be a Dem is what the OP is saying.
If Independents want to join the discussions here, then great. They should not be making demands or blackmailing Dems for their votes.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You don't have to be a Democrat to post here.
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)If Independents don't like it, they can change their party affiliation to Democrat and enact some changes.
Personally, I think Dems need to ignore everything a registered Independent has to say. I know I don't care to hear from them regarding the Dem primary process. Let them go join the Repubs if they think the Dems are so bad.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Democrats are 30% of the electorate. Unless you'd like to explain your master plan to win elections with 30% of the vote, you're going to have to listen to Independents.
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)They can change party affiliation if they want to change the Dem primary system. Otherwise, they can try that crap with Repubs and see how successful they are.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2010? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2004? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2002? Not so well. How'd that plan work in 2000? Not so well.
How 'bout we stop using that plan?
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)Those losses were not due to Independents voting R. They were due to Ds staying home.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Independents are actually two groups: Democratic-leaning independents and Republican-leaning independents. They will never cross over to the other party. They will either vote for their -leaning party, or stay home.
Democrats turned out in 2010 and 2014. Lower than 2008 and 2012, but still pretty good. The massive drop in turnout was among Democratic-leaning independents.
Btw, both groups of independents are to the left of their associated party. So the upcoming "pivot to center" is exactly the wrong thing for Democrats to do. But our party has a very big problem believing the country is not full of Republicans.
Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)LonePirate
(13,431 posts)salinsky
(1,065 posts)... and, you vote Repuke, or third party, or choose not to vote ...
... then you have no principle of which to speak.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)LonePirate
(13,431 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)I am contemplating a change to I, since I do not support/agree with the DNC/DWS/DLC.
Karma13612
(4,554 posts)we are pretty close to having to change the dynamic of the predominantly two party system.
I can see the day, very soon, where, if you only have the Dems and the Repubs voting in the presidential election, there won't be enuf votes by either candidate to win the election.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)argument between the D's and R's, and endless grid lock. I don't think it's very healthy at all the way it is. And those discounting the independent vote really apparently do not understand the statistics of party affiliation in the US. I register D so I can vote in the primaries. But the new democratic party continues to leave me with the DNC/DWS/DLC. For the most part I do not support their views. And millions of people are fed up with both the R and D establishment. I always vote, however, for the D nominee. In the future, I might change to I, but I will still support and vote for the D party candidates. I just get tired of the DNC/DWS/DLC thinking by the numbers I'm in the bag for them!
Karma13612
(4,554 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Svafa
(594 posts)where nobody has to take a loyalty oath to any party. Partywise, I'm not registered as jack shit, and I'm happy that way. However, I have voted dem across the board every election, so I believe that does entitle me to have an opinion on the party and how it operates.
GeorgiaPeanuts
(2,353 posts)debunction.junction
(127 posts)Theoretically, if Bernie ran as an Independent, and if all the Republicans voted Republican, and if all the Democrats voted Democrat, and if all the Independents voted Independent, Bernie would win with 43% of the vote. The same percentage that Bill Clinton won the Presidency with.
G_j
(40,372 posts)Doesn't mean you took part in the process.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Response to Yavin4 (Original post)
Post removed
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Jbradshaw120
(80 posts)That don't have party registration? Am I to shut up and sit down as well?
Bettie
(16,130 posts)and I can and will complain about a party that is no longer interested in serving anyone but the very, very rich members of the party and the corporations they pay fealty to. Down here at the peon level, no one in the party leadership gives a single fuck what we think or care about.
angrychair
(8,736 posts)I second this motion and move to consider all issues from Independents voting as Democrats.
Is that allowed or only "certain" Democrats allowed to make motions?
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)And you'll be looking for all you can get in November, especially if HRC is the nominee.
Vinca
(50,313 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Karma13612
(4,554 posts)Wait until the day that all independents stay home on presidential election day, and it's left to the dems and repubs.
There might not be enuf from either party to win the election.
You still want to tell Independents to go away??
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)to complain about the Republican party either
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)Kinda of the point.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)LOL
840high
(17,196 posts)complains about them.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)as the Rs. can't wait. And it is partly due to these attitudes.
Literally puts a smile in my face.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)in our system or anything, baka.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I saw what you did there
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)....you can't complain about Trump, Cruz, and everything Republican?
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Oh wait, you are serious? Yeah, let's slam the door on constructive criticism and we can keep losing membership to the ranks of the independents.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)As the two halves of the duopoly have granted themselves super-constitutional powers to regulate elections and monopolize control of the governments of the states and the nation, I, as a citizen, have every right to criticize the fuck out of their collusion in corrupt practices.
In my state I also have the right to register at the poll and vote in their corrupt elections, so even if I accept your nonsense assertion, I am granted the right to complain about their crap even under your terms, due to my 20 minutes as an official Democrat every two years.
'kay?
WheelWalker
(8,956 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)and "votebluenomatterwho
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)Response to Yavin4 (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)move to another if you don't like it.
demmiblue
(36,898 posts)You do realize that there are millions of us who are not registered dems (due to state laws), don't you?
Good grief, the ignorance is strong.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)See: every sports team in history.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And my state has open primaries and I say they can. So shut it.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)certainly do have a right to a free and fair elections.
Democrats are not the only ones that are to have fair elections. Just look at you call your own self out here....it's undemocratic to say this.
jillan
(39,451 posts)aidbo
(2,328 posts)'Grounds to complain' would be more accurate.
Whether one's complaint is taken seriously is another thing all together.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)smiley
(1,432 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)See how silly that sounds?
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Registered DEM here. I'm allowed to COMPLAIN! Woo Hoo!
This registered DEM dislikes caucuses and supports open primaries.
This registered DEM supports getting rid of super delegates and delegates and supports letting the popular vote -- and only the popular vote -- decide a primary, even if it means the candidates I support may never win another election.
YAY!
I love complaining!
peace13
(11,076 posts)...I think a person has the right to complain with words about anything that's on their minds.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Hovering right around 30% and dropping.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)The first time I was eligible to vote in a Presidential primary was in 1992, and I voted for Bill Clinton. I voted for him in the GE, and have always voted for the Democratic nominee.
That said, I think primary voters this time around have had plenty to fuss about. The crap that went on in Arizona is just the most egregious example - there have been issues with many polling places.
If you are a registered Democrat, and you go to vote only to find your registration has been flipped to something like a Libertarian or a Republican, you have every right to scream to high heaven.
If you do not take exception to loyal Democrats being unable to vote in the primary because of registration flipping, or lack of polling places, you are saying that you are just fine with voter suppression.
I sure as hell am not fine with what has been going on during this Primary.
Who put you in charge? I'm still a Democrat, but if I were an independent, I would complain if I chose. We have free speech in this country. At least for now.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)but then again, I've got actual principles and a desire to improve both the Party and myself.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Don't like it? Tough shit. Independents have helped win elections.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)casperthegm
(643 posts)Not trying to exclude them. If the Democratic party expects to survive and grow it should be paying attention to why more and more people are becoming independent.
speaktruthtopower
(800 posts)you're not born with a "D", "I" or "R" on your forehead, and Independents are needed to win elections.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)then many are going to, y'know, leave
I'm not in yellow unions but I can still call 'em scabs
and since we're not Pubs, does that mean we can't criticize the RNC?
Bleacher Creature
(11,258 posts)I see that the Naderites aren't particularly happy with you, so I wanted to make sure you knew that at least some of us get it.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)Calling Independents who consistently vote Democrat "Naderites" is proof.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)I complain about the Republican party but I don't vote for them....EVER!!!! An independent is not about to hijack the Democratic party. Start your own third party since we've had to hear ad nauseum that Independents are now the largest share of the electorate.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Democrats are 30% of the electorate.
Please explain your strategy to win with 30% of the vote.
UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)n/t
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The OP has repeatedly failed to explain how he will win elections with 30% of the electorate.
I was hoping you might have some sort of insight into how that can be pulled off, since the OP continues to fail to provide it.
UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)Truth be told I'm dissatisfied with the Democratic party and will never vote Republican. I wish we had 3 or 4 really powerful parties in this country instead of 2. But this is what the Democratic party is now and if you are an Independent and don't like it then start a legitimate 3rd party. The numbers are there. Lord knows the Dems and Repubs are in bed together to try and prevent this from happening though.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There you go, criticizing the Democratic party. The OP would ban that, btw. Previous incarnations of this OP have not specifically targeted independents, but instead have targeted all criticism.
UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)I either continue to ride the donkey out or switch to being an Independent and hope that someone runs as such that shares my values and political ideology.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)In most of his previous incarnations, he did not restrict his "you're not allowed to complain" to independents. He'd silence you just as much as he'd silence independents.
UMTerp01
(1,048 posts)n/t
jeff47
(26,549 posts)After all, you're not an independent, so you have no right to complain about him.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)They are gatekeepers to the political process. There's a public interest to making sure they are run well.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)"only registered Democrats may complain about the Democratic party"? Do you have a copy and can you send a copy to this website because maybe they can upload it here for all of us to read.
You should tell the Republicans that they also can't complain about the Dems because it's against your rules. They've really been smacking you guys down. Did you know that?? They complain about the Dems ALL THE TIME!!
This must be tough for you.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)DWS is by the very rules of the DNC NOT allowed to take sides in a D campaign. But she did. Tulsi was forced to resign from the DNC to support Bernie.
The DLC/DNC/ThirdWay are corporatist warhawks. They are for the 1%, not the people.
Under them the Democratic party has left ME. And hell yes, I have the right to complain!
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)voted in past Dem primaries...and then was told she was registered as an Independent when she went to vote again? Can she complain about the Dem party.
Newsflash: Anyone can complain about the Dem party. You are not the boss of us.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)and being a life long Democratic voter, is it OK by you if I f@#king complain about the direction the Democratic Party is taking?
Never mind, I don't need your permission.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,917 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)About Republicans, independents, Green Party?
What silly nonsense.
awake
(3,226 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)You know, the fucking memo where you were appointed gatekeeper?
*drops the mic*
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Gothmog
(145,631 posts)I have been working inside the party for a very long time
Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)Same poster who thinks there are only a 27K people in Ak,Wa,and Hawaii who voted.
jeepers
(314 posts)to complain or critize anything I wish to critize. You have the right to take me seriously or to dismiss me. Take me seriously and I will take you seriously. Dismiss me and I will critize you.
longship
(40,416 posts)Because Michigan, like in many states, there is no party registration allowed. Those would be the states with open primaries. When I was a Democratic committee person in KS it was required that I be registered as a Democrat, and indeed I was.
But this silly Democratic Party membership thing has gone by the wayside in many states which have no such thing. Just like in Vermont, where Bernie could not register as a Democrat if he tried.
The definition of who is or is not a Democrat has changed. It is now defined as somebody who votes for Democratic candidates. And even though neither Bernie nor I can register Democratic, nobody can accuse either of us as being essentially unDemocratic. I am also not in the legislature so I cannot even stake the claim of having caucused with the Democratic members for decades. Bernie can.
Would you all call people in a state where everybody is an independent a non-Democrat?
Silly argument that ignores the reality. Really.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Buns_of_Fire
(17,201 posts)When they start paying my rent, buying my groceries, keeping the car running, and making sure the electricity stays on, I'll be happy to pledge my troth to them (and I don't even know what a "troth" IS!).
As it stands, I'm one of those horrible "left-leaning independents" who has somehow wound up voting for Democrats in every major election since I was first eligible to vote. Odd, that.
But as the republicans morph into batshit crazy and the Democrats morph into republicans, I think I'm just fine where I sit, even though The Party doesn't have any obligation to listen to a word I say. (BTW, The Party is under no obligation to listen to their OWN membership, either -- which is why they don't.)