2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAll this hand wringing over Susan Sarandon reminds me of another female political activist who dared
to speak out & was vilified for doing so.
Heaven forbid women speak their mind!!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)I think this one might be:
Omg I wish I could vote there.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Thanks for turning this ugly thread into something beautiful.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I wish somebody would put names on these "Hunk of the Month" posts.
polly7
(20,582 posts)for a friend who's getting his chopped off, it's down to his waist and I was teasing him how he should go. He donates his hair often, it's thick and beautiful blond; I've never seen anyone's hair grow that fast in my life.
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Weathering's good for a man.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I just thought all those young girls first time voting might want to see there's (possibly/hopefully) those 'boys' down in hell just waiting for them.
He is quite stunning though ......... I'd love to draw him.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)There are special places for old skanks who see children as collateral damage...
janlea
(26 posts)The women in my family got a shopping trip out of this!!!!: new flame resistant outfits for Hell. Re. Susan Sarandon: when did it become anybody's business who she votes for? I hope you don't think she cares what anyone thinks of her.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Although this hatred for her is unhinged, if I were her I would up my security.
RandySF
(59,092 posts)I would the same about Sanrandon's remarks if she were a man.
salinsky
(1,065 posts)... concern for your fellow countrymen used to be one of the cornerstones of progressivism.
I guess when you're a super rich Hollywood liberal, it's easy to forget about that.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Had she said this in October I could see the criticism.
senz
(11,945 posts)If Sarandon were running for president, I'd vote for her.
jillan
(39,451 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)argument?
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)RandySF
(59,092 posts)For holding a rally with the people who were shooting at American servicemen.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)On the nose.
senz
(11,945 posts)RandySF
(59,092 posts)I don't have recourses like she does to insulate myself and my family from the consequences of a Trump or Cruz presidency. I don't have a ping pong club to retreat to.
senz
(11,945 posts)I don't have resources either but do not want to entrust the future of this country into the hands of either a Trump or a Hillary.
So let's get behind the only candidate actually cares about and represents the people of this country.
RandySF
(59,092 posts)I respect one's right to back a candidate in a primary. But would you step back, like Sarandon is suggesting people will do, and let Trump or Cruz burn the country down?
senz
(11,945 posts)and sees greater opportunity for rebellion under anyone else.
Who knows? If it comes down to the false dichotomy of Hill vs. Trump maybe someone else will step into the ring.
LexVegas
(6,088 posts)KPN
(15,647 posts)LexVegas
(6,088 posts)Your laughing is why your guy does so bad with minorities.
KPN
(15,647 posts)Thought you were referring to Hilly. But no matter, that was a non-incident and Sarandon did not attack her.
This is all so petty. Sarandon's an enemy because she doesn't fall in line and has some visibility.
You Hillary folks fail to recognize that some if not many Bernie supporters don't feel obligated, have never been obligated, and certainly don't feel represented by the Democratic Party or DNC. Your outrage at their "disloyalty" is pointless. There is some legitimacy to the their view that maybe things just need to get worse or very bad before they really do get better -- afterall, it's been the history of mankind/civilization generally.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Vote2016
(1,198 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)LonePirate
(13,429 posts)People are upset with her for supporting Trump if Bernie loses the primary contest. Everybody here at DU should find that unconscionable.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)They even slut shamed her the other night.
jillan
(39,451 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And another said "sex sells".
It reminds me of that, either your with us.... saying.
jillan
(39,451 posts)We don't have to agree with her. But she has that right & shouldn't be vilified.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Have people forgotten where they are posting nowadays?
jillan
(39,451 posts)followed it up with if Trump wins you will see the revolution in full force.
Paraphrasing here, but it was along those lines.
KPN
(15,647 posts)For basically pointing out that she doesn't see Hillary as the person who will push the nation in the direction it needs to move? My son has said the identical thing she said -- basically, that in the long run (i.e., several years down the road) maybe it would be better if Trump wins over Hillary. I understand where he's coming from: darkest just before the dawn. BTW, he's 32, college degree and makes a decent income. He's not inspired by the Democratic Party today any more than he is by the GOP, though he believes in long held democratic principles (which he feels today's party does not).
So should he be vilified for that thinking too, or me for understanding where he's coming from?
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)I said people should be figuratively raked over the coals here at DU for supporting Repubs. Therefore, if you disagree ...
KPN
(15,647 posts)Because she refuses to follow blindly. I didn't say anything about what I, as a Bernie supporter, may possibly do if he's not nominated -- yet in your mind I deserve to be vilified?
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Where did I say you should be vilified for something you have not done?
If you don't want flack here on DU, then do not advocate voting against the Dem in the GE (or voting for a third party candidate because of so-called principles).
senz
(11,945 posts)It's not nice.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)That's a bizarre interpretation of things.
KPN
(15,647 posts)Sad.Sigh.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Do you understand the purpose of the website? Do you oppose voting for Dems in the GE?
KPN
(15,647 posts)I already told you why I disagreed. Let's not chase our tail here. You don't like or agree with my explanation, fine.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)I am not questioning you as in implying you are being dishonest but do you have a link?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She said some people will support Trump, not that she would.
Here's the quote:
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She would probably write in Bernie's name or vote for Jill Stein.
She would never vote for a racist sexist asshole like Trump.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)The facts are the facts.
Anyone who says what she said there, is having some real big white privilege problems.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Those are the facts.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)So she is considering supporting Trump.
Now that is a fact.
But why argue about it, many here are as well they just wont admit it or at a MINIMUM they are going to inadvertently support him
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Speculation is fine but they cross the line into lying when they say she supports/is voting for Trump.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)not run out and vote for Trump. Jeez.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)altogether serious.
On trade, Bernie and Trump are closer than Hillary and Bernie.
Bernie is simply the best bet for our candidate.
But I don't think the Republicans will nominate Trump, so for me this question is irrelevant.
Trump will not have 50.1 percent of the votes in the primary season, and I have heard that according to Republican rules, that's what he needs to go into the Republican convention with his nomination pretty much in hand.
So don't worry about this too much.
Cruz, unless a scandal makes him an impossible candidate, will probably be the candidate in my opinion. And Hillary will not do well against Cruz. She is not a good enough speaker. Bernie will win against Cruz, but not Hillary.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)such as what you've posted here.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)There's no need to insult HRC's supporters when Sarandon's words are damning all on their own.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Stating that Sarandon is considering voting for Trump is a dishonest statement, and I think I'll just keep on saying so.
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)You may not like the statement but it is not dishonest. Her own words make that pretty clear.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)of her statements. It on DU.
Here's the link to the DU discussion thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017346070
Here's the link to the YouTube post:
senz
(11,945 posts)That's not nice, either.
KPN
(15,647 posts)and defense of others here. Good on you.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)..............................
LonePirate
(13,429 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)Unless I misread yours. I was referring to the disjunct between the avatar and the message. No insult meant.
senz
(11,945 posts)Some kind of misunderstanding.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)They have no right to stand in judgement of a women's political thoughts and feelings.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)demmiblue
(36,875 posts)having had a relationship with a man 30 years her junior.
Still could happen, though.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And two DUers did slut shame her the other night.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)to this, I am not surprised in the least, though.
senz
(11,945 posts)back in the day. And I wasn't even very outspoken.
I do believe she stood for something in their minds, something they find deeply disturbing, definitely gender related. I've seen the same reaction on this thread. Brought all my old adolescent repudiation of such men, fresh as if it were yesterday.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And I will be the first to admit many men feel the same way about Hillary but the vast majority of them are Republicans.
Having been called a traitor, told I was going to hell and am supporting "white maIe rule" by OTHER WOMEN if I vote for Bernie I'm just a little sick and tired of these same types pretending they can take the high road now.
That ship has sailed.
senz
(11,945 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)demmiblue
(36,875 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Hillary has no principles and never takes a stand to protect anything.
Absorb that. Know it.
demwing
(16,916 posts)and define "stand in judgement" and "thoughts and feelings."
At first I wanted to agree with your post, but then I wondered if I am allowed to stand in judgement of Hillary's "thoughts and feelings" about the Iraq war, for example?
If we're talking about personal thoughts and feelings about something like reproductive rights, I'm with you.
If we're talking about publicly shared thoughts and feelings about how you plan to govern, then I say some things need to be judged. There is a difference between judgement, and being judgmental.
So, please help me understand what you mean.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)Or not.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Like Bernie being a democrat and dictating what a democrat is.
jillan
(39,451 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Boy Bernie really chapped a lot of hides on Saturday.
potone
(1,701 posts)Bernie represents the ideals of a large part of the Democratic party, as well as many Independents. You may not agree with him, but it is absurd to claim that only Hillary represents Democrats, which seems to be the assumption of many Hillary supporters. Nor is Sarandan dictating to anyone; she is stating her view, which is her right. She also has not said that she would vote for Trump if Hillary wins the nomination, as some Hillary supporters are claiming that she said.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I don't think there are enough inhalants in the world for me to continue with this stupid line of reasoning.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)We decide if Bernie is a Democrat. ..
He is, by the nature of his policies ...
Now, begone ....
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)They keep his back bench warm for him in the Senate and Chuck Schumer isn't too hard on him when he gets back and let's him keep his committee assignments after his behavior the past few months.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)All full up with the latest snarky b.s. From the master of b.s. ....
12 days and gone ...
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)You felt you needed to reply twice
longship
(40,416 posts)Spinning away!
They aren't interested in any discussion whatsoever. Just division.
Marr
(20,317 posts)and giddily slapping each other on the back.
They're ridiculous.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)because they are women, but open season on Hillary because her gender is irrelevant?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She sold us the Iraq war in 2002 and 2003 and then defended it by calling what we did to the Iraqis the "gift of freedom".
Hillary is being criticzed for her opinions, not for being opinionated.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)She was the same as Obama, it was chickenshit to be sure, but she wasn't the Phyllis Schlafly or Anita Bryant caricature Team Bernie portrays her as.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And a flat out unapologetic NO to same sex couples in New York:
No one is portraying her as anything other than what she was, an opponent of marriage equality.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)marriage
second clip is from 2000.
She's followed the same trajectory as Obama has on the issue.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That's fierce opposition based on religious/moral grounds. It's offensive as hell.
And again with the deflection, she didn't support marriage equality until 2013, long after the rest of the country.
When you need to rely on polls to tell you that civil rights are for everyone you don't get to pretend to be on the right side of history.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it was distasteful pandering, and it was almost certainly disingenuous.
this is how politicians are. they don't lead, they follow the public
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She opposed equal rights for same sex couples using the same arguments as the Republicans, that marriage is "sacred" and only hetero couples should be allowed to marry.
Stop trying to spin this, it's a matter of record.
jillan
(39,451 posts)Susan and Jane are actresses. They are citizens that are paid to entertain us. They can do and say whatever they want.
Hillary is running for POTUS. I don't see any similarities - unless of course you are talking about their body parts.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And that means vapid, hyperprivileged doltish celebrities can be criticized when they say stupid stuff.
jillan
(39,451 posts)Get it?
They BOTH have introduced our candidates at rallies.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Oh wait, no.
jillan
(39,451 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)For the candidates they run? And when are you blaming the conservadems who voted for dubya?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Voting for Bush made a person functionally a Republican--e.g. Zell Miller.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And every other loss, consistently are never conservadems. You might think you are fooling folks, but you truly are not
On edit, I predict the left will be blamed (again) if your party loses in November. This is at this point tone deaf.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and Naderites both deserve the scorn they get.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It is rather funny and tone deaf. Now time to write a story about the erasure of a bunch of people in this cycle. It is starting to backfire, and yes, they will be blamed too
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It is hysterical at this point
MattP
(3,304 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)sigh....
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)for Hillary. She was just a supporter and she could say whatever she wanted.
It's really no different for Susan, is it?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They're going after her for preferring the most misogynistic presidential candidate in history--Trump-- to Clinton (a sentiment she was clearly transmitting even if she didn't come out and say it).
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)She doesn't support Trump, she never said she would vote for him.
It's pretty obvious to anyone who can read.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)would smash the status quo and lead to revolution, blah blah blah.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)But keep digging, watching so-called liberal men trying to shame Susan for not supporting Hillary is very enlightening.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's about as convincing as when Sarah Palin tried to play that card
2) Here's what she said, it's a very clear distillation of the Rock Bottomer dogma:
Hayes then asked her if she thought that it would be dangerous to allow Trump to become president.
If you think that its pragmatic to shore up the status quo right now, then youre not in touch with the status quo, she responded.
I think its dangerous to think we continue the way we are, with a militarized police force, with privatized prisons, with the death penalty, with the low minimum wage, with threats to womens rights and think that you cant do something huge to turn that around.
She very clearly declined to say electing Trump would be dangerous, but said preserving the status quo (i.e. voting for Clinton) would be dangerous.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Some people do, where did she say she was one of them? You must have skipped that part, maybe go back and copy/paste again?
Nope, still no vote for Trump.
This isn't that difficult, try reading for comprehension.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)winning.
Bernie believes that, Susan Sarandon does not.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)So what?
I don't care who she votes for.
I support Bernie but I would never ever ever vote for Trump. Most of the people who do not support Hillary are not voting for Trump. Maybe some, but probably a small minority if even that.
Why all this hand wringing about who Susan Sarandon is going to vote for?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Kind of like he shouldn't have been using Cornel West to reach out to black voters.
jillan
(39,451 posts)this as a supporter. She is no different than Danny DeVito. But she is not asked by the campaign to travel with them.
Nina Turner is a surrogate.
Tulsi Gabbard is a surrogate.
There's more... but the difference is they are asked by the campaign to speak for them.
George Clooney, Katy Perry - those are examples of Hillary supporters that are activists for Hillary. No one would call them surrogates.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)They are passive victims of use by others.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)some surrogates wind up being counterproductive.
Geraldine Ferraro was not an effective surrogate for Hillary in 2008.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)Good to know (though it was obvious from the way she ran her campaign that the two were birds of a feather).
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)That's makes someone a poor surrogate.
Sarandon is a vapid narcissist insulated in a cocoon of privilege, so she will say stupid shit that directly contradicts Sanders.
demmiblue
(36,875 posts)Look at Trump.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)demmiblue
(36,875 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This is a faux outrage to add to a leg list of them
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Do carry on
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)for Hillary would be analogous to Fonda standing on a North Vietnamese tank during the Viet Nam War. A very lame analogy. A sure sign of desperation is the increased frequency of unforced errors.
treestar
(82,383 posts)by thousands of exponential multitudes.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bernie must be pissed off.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)WHEN WILL BERNIE SANDERS TELL THIS WOMAN TO STAHP HATING AMERICA???
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Gore won, history is hard.
senz
(11,945 posts)When you're on, you're ON.
Renew Deal
(81,869 posts)Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I didn't even know who the Dixie Chicks were until 1 of them spoke out about Dubya.
And they took a lot of hits for a few years 'til many (not all) in county music to admit they were right. Yet many country stations still wont play their records.
I hope the Ms Sarandon doesn't suffer the Hollywood version because of this.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)kind of shit befalls the rest of us if Trump were president.
The rest of Bernie supporters not do much which leaves me guessing what are they thinking?
longship
(40,416 posts)No appeals! They are authoritarians. And they don't take kindly to jokes about birds.
Their block message says:
You have been blocked from posting in the Hillary Clinton group by <host>. If you believe this is an error, you may contact <host> for more information.
Except that this is a fucking lie.
The message should read:
You have been blocked from posting in the Hillary Clinton group by <host>. If you believe this is an error, that's too fucking bad. Even if you PM <host> we will ignore you. After all we didn't get 768 blocked DUers by being reasonable or (horrors) actually listening. Like Hillary, we're authoritarians. Deal with it.
That's how they play in the ol' Hillary group, even when one supports their candidate in the GE.
One can post as long as one doesn't look cross-eyed, or (horrors!!!!!) make a joke about a bird, which apparently puts the whole group into apoplexy. Well, I am not sure whether it was the bird or the humor as my inquiry was never responded to, in spite of their blocking PM. I think that they have no sense of humor. Or maybe they just hate birds, since birds like Bernie. My post in no way maligned their candidate.
I think that they all watched Hitchcock's "The Birds" and thought it was real. That is my conclusion. I will stick to it until I receive a PM response. And I will also taunt them until they honor their banning message and explain themselves.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)No warnings-I didn't even realize I was there. Very thin skinned over in the Bernie Bus
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)151. If America is ready for a Socialist President
Perhaps but I doubt it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=6167
Uh huh.
longship
(40,416 posts)For supporting the DU TOS when one of their so-called members was PPR'd.
I expressed approval for the PPR. Like you, I had no idea that it was the Bernie group. Seconds later I got the banning PM.
At least the host had the fucking decency to correspond with me via PM. We even went back and forth politely. The answer was no, which I still disagree with, but it is their group.
The Hillary group obviously just doesn't care to abide by their own rules. When they say that you can contact the host to appeal what they really mean is: "La la la la la! We don't hear you. La la la la!"
That is maybe why they have 768 DUers blocked, more than any other group.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I have no problem with it but this argument that the Hillary Group is any worse is silly.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)Diem, Nhu, Ky all corrupt dictators propped up by the U.S. When they served no purpose to the U.S. PTB at that time, they were done away with in one manner or other. Jane Fonda, rich or not, did what her conscience led her to do. Hell. I'm an army brat whose family has served this country in the military since Buffalo Soldier days. I turned against that 'war' just like I knew the 2nd Iraq incursion was political postering and protecting our oil assets. Look at our mess our leaders made of the region. Susan Sarandon has a right to suppoert anyone she pleases and I will go to the mat to protect that right.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)To me
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)The conservatives will applaud the Fascists
The moderates will watch the execution on TV
The Liberals will cry over your grave and regret turning you into the Fascists
On an old SDS button.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)That having Trump as president would bring the revolution...that had me seeing red.
She'd be watching the "revolution" from her ivory tower, while the rest of the country is isn flames..
brooklynite
(94,679 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)You look at the rants being posted about her here, they'd fit right in to Free Republic.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I would be saying she was a naderite moron if she were a man also. Also Jane Fonda DID apologize for her stupid stunt during the war. She's lucky she didn't get arrested for treason because she certainly did give aid and comfort to the enemy.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)RandySF
(59,092 posts)For having her picture taken with artillery used to fire at American servicemen. She grew up to understand her actions have consequences. Something, I suspect, Sarandon never will.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)Jane Fonda spoke out against an unjust war, she didn't promote the supposed virtues of a far right-wing candidate backed by the Aryan Nation.
It's really touching to see you stand up for a woman who defends a candidate that seeks to strip away equal rights for women, people of color, and LGBT Americans. Sarandon's courage in defense of white male supremacy--how noble.
When she was supporting Bernie rather than Trump, she announced her decision by insulting women who failed to vote for male candidates by calling them "vagina voters," a misogynist meme repeated often. It seems women can speak their mind as long as they do it in furtherance of male rule.
If you want to see a picture of a woman who has been vilified, none come close to the one in my sig line. So much so that fake "progressives" have declared their intention to support a right-wing hate monger over someone with a long history championing liberal causes. A cynic might say it's because they in fact support the platform and goals of the right over the left.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Depaysement
(1,835 posts). . . all bothered by Susan Sarandon's comments.
Beacool
(30,250 posts)Her comment was idiotic.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)is it Dis a woman's opinion for Hillary week?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Or talent acting?
Can't think of anything else they have in common.
Renew Deal
(81,869 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)she was inspiritional. the "national conversation" and all.