[link:

there wouldn't be a need for Clinton to waste time in senseless debates or campaigning; this is hurting the bottom line for the CFI, corporate interests, and special interests. When are those refusing to accept the inevitable going to realize that making up for these deficits will necessitate cuts to SS, Medicare, and other safety nets? Some voters are so delusional. (is this really needed? )

President Obama has been the target of a great deal of hate speech here. As is the case with Hillary Clinton.

it gets better during presidential general election mode, when the hostile elements have to STFU at the risk of being banned.

Criticizing policy is not hate speech.



.

Posts like this, and there sure are a LOT of them, just seem, I don't know, fearful or something.

If the eventual candidate cannot inspire people to vote for them, then that is their fault, and the DNC's fault. No one else's fault.

These authoritarian little rants are getting old. 'bye.

It isn't blackmail to demand a candidate inspire you to vote for them. Some of us do not vote out of fear, plain and simple.

Is threatening not to vote for the nominee if the threatener doesn't get his way.

This whole thing is like if you and a coworker decided to play poker for your entire paychecks. You win, but as soon as you do, you coworker grabs his stake back out of the pot, says he doesn't believe in gambling and leaves.

The purpose of the nomination and the party is so that we can all work together, which we need to do to win. It benefits us all. Participating in the process and then not honoring the result is flat out dishonest.

If you don't want to support the nominee, stay out of the primaries.

You can see it as a game if you want, but this is damn serious to me. I am not a fan of child labor or slavory that many of the trade deals support. The US has been a bully saying not forme,but for the world, carpet bomb them it's OK. the Ugly American is back ,many fold and it is not pretty, while we have a vote I want to use it to vote for candidates that reflect my views - I don't look or a perfect candidate because that person does not esixt but I need someone not to paint fary tales about free trade or war in the middle east or environmental laws but to see the world as it is and the dangers that are there, Nothing is more endangered that our vote right now.

So please respect my moral beliefs and I will respect yours

The analogy is about the dishonesty of taking part in the system and then ripping it off in the end. Its not a game to want to win, and that takes a majority. Without that majority, none of what you would like to see will ever happen. That's when it becomes nothing more than a game.

Free trade has dramatically improved the standard of living in countries we partner with. China was growing at about 10% a year. Trade deals do not support child labor or slavery. If those things are taking place they were there before the trade deals and are more likely in the impoverished conditions before the opportunities of trade come.

We aren't carpet bombing the mid-East.

Please don't interpret my disagreement as a disrespect for your beliefs.

may have increased their use of slaves. most do not really pay a living wage. It has destroyed private farming in Mexico, it has allowed companies to come into these countries and override their environmental laws the minimum wage laws. No that is not a true statement. It sounds lovely when spoken by the corporations, but they are the only ones who have profited, many of the people have suffered under these very same trade laws - well it has helped some who cot jobs from the US, but even then many are not paid a living wage, are not trained properly and no longer have safety protections.

I disagree

And the wages of the Western middle class have stagnated.

It is possible that neither of those have anything to do with trade ('free' or otherwise). After all wages are high and unions are strong in Sweden and it trades 2 1/2 times as much as the US does.

It is possible that both are largely due to trade. Then liberals should want to change the system, not to harm the world's poorest 70%, but to go after the top 1% (particularly the top .1%) who have also had large income gains during the same period.

If so, those are some uncommon morals.

That's no different than actively supporting the GOP.

that they have the latitude to make that choice. There are many who always vote from a place of fear because there is that much at stake for them. Their vote is a defense against those who would deprive them of very basic human rights. Being in a position to not need to do that is unimaginable, not unlike the insulation from consequences enjoyed by the 1%. A genuine measure of socialist intent is a desire to protect the welfare of all, especially those with the least access to resources and human rights.

May I add the word "progressive" to your last sentence?

A genuine measure of socialist and progressive intent is a desire to protect the welfare of all, especially those with the least access to resources and human rights.

Many BS supporters say their vote is their vote to vote their conscience, but I say vote for someone else besides yourself. That's what being a progressive is all about — voting for those less fotunate than yourself, voting for the good of the country.

Vote for the immigrants which Trump has promised to round up and deport behind his ridiculous wall.

Vote for women who will be denied abortion rights after Trump appoints right wing SCOTUS judges to overturn Roe v Wade.

Vote for innocent Muslims who he has promised to deny entry into the country.

Vote for seniors who will no longer get Social Security as that has been a repug objective since FDR got it passed.

Vote for seniors who will no longer get Medicare as that has been a repug objective since LBJ got it passed.

Vote for all the people who have Obamacare now, something the repugs will destroy and not replace.

Vote for all the innocent, unarmed black men and women being shot down as you know the police state will get even worse under Trump.

Make of that whatever you want.

A: When Democrats stop acting like Democrats.

I make that you have an idea of what you think the Democratic party should be, based on a distorted and idealised view of what it was 50 years ago, and that you use the word "Democrats" to mean "people who share my personal views, regardless of political affiliation" rather than "members and supporters of the Democratic party".

those that serve the corporations I have no use for. If that means you don't want me in the party, so be it.

The solution is there.

From the Terms of Service: "But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats."

A web site that supported and promoted progressive, liberal, small "d" democratic values.

Not one where you were expected to pledge allegiance to THE Democratic Party.

Having said that, the Democrats MUST win in 2016, and yes Bernie is running as a Democrat. Again, the Democratic nominee must win in 2016. The alternative serves the interests of no one here at DU.

But, it is the candidates responsibility to understand the concerns of their constituents and move to address to concerns to be more inclusive. The candidate must earn my vote. I am sorry, but the shut up and get in line tactic is no longer going to work.

TOS reads: Well, read post #13. See the difference?

you will see what you have wrong.

And leave site until end of election. Until then though I'm going to actively campaign for the candidate I believe best suited for the office.

Those running for public official should earn people's vote. It is the job of Hillary to earn my vote. I can't in good conscience vote for a candidate that I feel embodies everything I believe is wrong in this corrupt political system. I wish that wasn't the case and instead of blaming me, blame your candidate.

I thought 2008 was bad, but this is something else. It's really disheartening to see.

THAT'S the question you should be asking yourself...and, no, Republicans are worse is not the right answer.

That fact is lost on some people it would seem. Sometimes voting for the lesser of two evils is the only choice even f we don't like that choice. Maybe some people are comfortable with President Trump or President Cruz. I am not one of those people.

for being a voice of logic and reason. It is baffling that some of the same people who hold their votes to be sacrosanct (as they should) are able to reverse and somehow disavow that those same votes have any value. However small the measure may be, every one of our votes (or lack thereof) has a consequence. Every single one of us is free to vote as we wish and each of us is 100% responsible for our part in whatever the consequences of that may be.

anyone should refuse to vote for them on "principle".

that would simply be a lack of principle.

They have no principles if they permit either of them to be elected in November.

Congressman from swamp country does-- I only have some say with mine, and not a whole hell of a lot of it. Same with the Senate, although have even less say there.

In a democracy, it's YOUR responsibility to get your ideas out there-- nobody is going to do it for you.

So bitch all you want about RINOs and that Debbie person, but if you can't get a Democrat in Congress, or your town council, or the "right" Democrat in there, you have no place to look into but the mirror.

but I found out when I advocated for Green and my post was hidden that this blog is actually affiliated with the Democratic Party. You all should make that perfectly clear. The Greens consider themselves on the side of democracy. I changed to independent because I no longer want to be strictly Democratic Party because I do not want to be a slave to any party nor do I want to compromise my principles for a party. I've almost always voted with the Democrats but I can change my mind any time. I reserve that privilege. And as long as I'm moving left - even when the party doesn't - I still consider myself pro-democracy. Right now, man y people believe we live in a plutocracy or oligarchy and that is with the help of the now centrist-right Democratic Party. Thank you DLC. And that's not my opinion. It has been written about ever since the Clintons and Rahm campaigned in the 90s.

It's a bit of a problem to those of us who want to vote for one in the GE, considering that candidate is not actually supported by the party.

I was not aware you were the arbiter of who is or is not a Democrat.

And I put no name on it, which party would you put that person in?

As honest as your avatar.

then you would recognize there are two Dems running for President this year, not simply the one you think is a Dem. It's interesting how you stand in opposition to what someone above called a purity test but here you are imposing a purity test on what you consider to be a Democrat.

One candidate has been a Democrat for "all of a year. " The other has been playing one on TV for over 30 years. Check your head.

"Playing one on TV for over 30 years"

Truer words...and 30 years of varying acting quality at that.

I know it is challenging for some to believe, but there are Dems out there who voted for Bernie during primary season but will gladly vote for Hillary in the GE if she becomes the nominee. I am not one of those Bernie or Bust voters who will take their ball and go home if Bernie is not the nominee. Evidently DU is infested with the Bernie or Bust people nowadays.

Democratic Party is a label. If affiliating yourself with a label is what all this is about, then it is sort of a fraud. I affiliate myself with the same values I've had since I was eighteen and started voting. As many people say, my party left me and it was pretty damn recent. No labels for me. Is this what consumerism and media advertising has brought us to? As long as the label is there, we'll buy it. Amazing.

Looks like it would be bad for us. Lots of instant war in the ingredients...and corporate sugar.

This third way shit,is just that,shit.

no more. The Democratic Party (third way) is getting worse with each election. When will people wake up?

When the Admins changed the TOS to allow any "substantive criticism" of Obama, and removed language which stated that criticism had to be constructive.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9563958


And then even further on Dec 11, 2011, when all the rules went out the window, and the Community Moderating System, and mob-rule community standards, became the law of the land.



Sid

It's no wonder this primary season is worse than the one in 2008.

But I think you should well advertise what this site supports: the Democratic Party warts and all or democracy, the left and liberals regardless of party. Anybody who gets his noise out of joint when the Party is criticized is accelerating the day this site will become exclusive and for insiders only.

A lot of people on this blog are emotional bloggers and they turn to censorship much to easily. It is a shame.

Thanks.

I'm looking forward to whatever changes are in store after the primaries.

How do you square that?

IOKIYSHRC?

.

Might have started a couple weeks earlier when participants for the inaugural were announced.

I wouldn't support him if he called himself "Republican" or "Libertarian" either.
Neither is David Brock, although David's PAC coordinates directly with Hillary's campaign.
Henry Kissinger isn't my kind of "Democrat" either.

So it seems to be a question of "repugnance factor" when offered "the lesser of neocon evils".

There are apparently a lot of "Dems" who think a million dead Arabs isn't nearly enough.

Robert Kagan announced in the Washington Post on Thursday that he intends to back Hillary Clinton if Donald Trump receives the nomination...

for most Dems when choosing their candidate this year. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it is near the bottom of concerns/issues. However you're certainly welcome to make that the litmus test issue for you personally.

The "right thing to do" is a personal choice, and not dictated by anonymous internet barkers.

You're entitled to one vote. Your own.

Sure, it's your one vote but do you really want that one vote helping Trump or Cruz? It's not a difficult decision for any sensible and rational voter.

Deal with it.

What makes you think anybody gives a shit about meeting your standard. Take a hike.

That's great. Perhaps you should spend a little more of your time minding your own business, instead of everyone else's. Just a thought.

and checking it twice
Gonna keep track of who's naughty and nice

eom

Air whatever criticisms you have of the DNC (or Clinton if you want to stop using code words). Simply confront the reality of the choice in November. If you don't vote Dem, you're helping to elect Trump or Cruz.

At some point, if you can't cut yourself off from the pack, you're just postponing the inevitable which could be anything from people finally waking up and voting their self-interests(assuming they still will be able) to armed rebellion or a complete takeover by the Koch Brothers and their buddies. Voting for the status quo is never the answer. It takes courage.

If voting for the status quo keeps Trump or Cruz out of the White House, then it's a vote I have no problems making and it shouldn't be a problem for any other Dem.

for your own values. Well, good luck with that. I imagine you'll still be doing that when your party and their party are indistinguishable. Which, by the way, many people feel has already happened.

Me? No I won't vote for republican lite. I will vote my values. When enough of us do that, then we may be able to take our country back. But the more you give in to big money - whether Clinton or Trump - the less likely you'll be able to get your country back - the Kochs will own it all. Many of the things Clinton is for moves us further and further right and right into the hands you think you are avoiding by voting for her.

No, I am not voting to keep somebody out. I never have and I never will.

Just be prepared for the hell we're all in store for come January 20, 2017.

Then your argument might hold true but with the winner take all electoral college system that we have in this country there are areas where your vote won't matter. This holds true for both major parties, depending on where you live.

eom

Absent those values... I got better shit to do.

I'm confused about this site now. Is it affiliated with Democratic Party or with democracy on the left?

I guess it is a logo and a reference point. I posted earlier something about the Green Party maybe becoming the new liberal party while the Dems become the new party on the right. I got a "hide" for that. That was all I said but it was enough to ruffle some feathers. So I wondered if this blog were affiliated with the Democratic Party or if the "democratic" referred to democracy. Can you unconfuse me?

The name of the site was chosen when W was "selected" in 2000, Skinner et al thought the Democratic Party would sort of unite under an underground moniker while the neocon fires ravaged the world, regrouping to retake power. My opinion is the Underground term is horribly misleading, it is more accurately DLC Support. Skinner was even the website designer for the old DLC and PPI websites.

Basically, this site is a party operation. It isn't quite official, as far as I know. I do know (or think I know) that Skinner's wife is or was on the payroll of the Clinton campaign. I think there are other formal connections to the party but I don't know precisely what they are. All of this should be openly disclosed by the admins but I don't think it is.

So basically, and sadly, IMHO, this site is not about moving things to the left, it's setup to do exactly what this thread is attempting to do, support and coerce support for Democratic politicians, regardless of policy or where they fall on the political spectrum. It's about supporting a label, a team, little more, fighting Republicans regardless of how much inner Republican any Democratic candidate may be hiding.

People like you (and me, so far at leasst) are allowed to post here so long as we follow the terms of service. If you're willing to bite your tongue once in awhile when you feel like giving them hell, it's not that hard to keep an active account in good standing here. We can do some good here, learn some things, teach some things, and it's sometimes worthwhile to dialogue with people who differ from your perspective.

Hartmann is an odd duck. I love him, but he tries to keep a foot in mainstream Democratic society, while his heart is on the left side of that. It makes for some contradictory situations if you ask me. Regardless, we're lucky to have him.

I was a member of the Green Party for a long time after I got tired of seeing Democrats who said what I wanted to hear and did what the big money people wanted behind my back. That was from the mid 80's until I reregistered Democrat to vote for Obama in the '08 primary. I was instantly re-disgusted with what the party actually does.

That said, the U.S. version of the Green Party is one of the more disfunctional organizations I've ever run across. Impossibly bad at organizing, and it tends to be filled with people pulling for their niche affinity groups rather than working towards a common goal. Their platform is and always has been amazing, it's a shame they never got it together but I see them as pretty hopeless. YMMV.

So personally I made the choice to fight to win back the Democratic Party for the people rather than for the corporations. There are many similar people here, though plenty of us have been banned from DU.

There are other places on the web where people like you are more welcome, like Reddit or JackpineRadicals (a new site setup by banned and/or disaffected DU members, some of our best posters). You would do well to hang out in those places a lot.

But I hope you'll stick around here if you can stand it, there is a battle going on and the populist side of the party needs to represent, with courage and wisdom. Engaging here is a way to do that. Best to you whatever you choose. I can tell your heart is in the right place.

And thanks for asking me to stick around. Sometimes I feel a little out of place. But I'm addicted! I will be more thoughtful in how I post knowing that it was originally a party-establishment site.

About the Greens, I do agree but they are my only alternative. This election tells me that change may not be possible. Perhaps voting Green at the local level will be the only way. In Seattle we have Kshama Sawant who is a form of socialist and she has brought so much change to Seattle that you'd be surprised I think. She's been smart and effective and she was the force behind our $15 minimum wage successful campaign. She sounds a lot like Bernie.

Thank you again for the very complete and informative response. I get it now.

I'm very aware of Sawant and am a big fan. I would suggest her for a possible Bernie VP but I don't know if she's ready for such a national role.

I saw a post of yours elsewhere that openly advocated for the Green Party, to the end of the Democratic Party. I get where you're coming from, but a post like that will get you banned from here and can be pretty easily avoided, assuming you value membership here.

Many of us are thinking about the long-term viability of the Democratic Party as a vehicle to serve the people. It is much worse than even I realized, as this election season has revealed. The mask is off and it ain't pretty.

I'm not all that radical, really, but the corporatist takeover of this party, and its use of superdelegates in the primary, are not giving me much hope for anything other than climate disaster, endless wars, and substandard living conditions for all but the extremely wealthy.

There is a Group here on DU called Populist Reform of the Democratic Party, you might want to check it out.

I'm still, for now at least, working to win control of it from the corporations. I would like to see the Progressive Caucus formalize into an entity that forbids SuperPAC or any corporate campaign contributions, and provides members with a crowd-sourced campaign funding mechanism so long as they meet certain progressive values. I think that would go a long way towards getting control back.

If the party is too resistant to reform, as it seems to be so far, an alternative solution will need to be found, probably something new rather than the U.S. Green Party, IMO. That is a very steep hill to climb, but so is reclaiming the Democratic Party. This is now being very actively talked about in various places, here's one such article:

Time to Transform Bernies’s Campaign Into a Permanent Organization
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/time-to-transform-bernies_b_9547060.html

Such discussion is probably outside of the scope of DU, although it might be more acceptable in the Populist Reform Group here.

Regards.

I don't think I meant that exactly. I do think I suggested that perhaps that was happening . . . Dem Party becoming the old Republicans and Green becoming new Democrats but who knows. Sometimes I get to typing and I'm not very good at previewing! I'm kind of impulsive

You are still teaching me. I'll check out the these various groups. Thanks again.

That's so interesting about the Green Party. They may be getting an enormous influx of new members soon, so perhaps with that, better organization will happen organically.

Or I'd really like to see a new party, with a different name. If we could bring different groups together, like the Greens, MoveOn, DFA, BLM, WFP, AFL-CIO, etc, I think we would have something amazing happen. The Peoples Party, Progressive Populists, something like this.

There's a critical mass right now for retaking our government from a corrupt establishment. I've never seen that before. It could be a flash driven by the energy of this primary, but I think it's more.

The entry hurdles for new parties are very high, which is why I hope we can gain a foothold in the Democratic Party. But if we can't (and it's clear the party doesn't want us and our populist demands) then we'll have to figure out the next step. This revolution must not be denied!

"So personally I made the choice to fight to win back the Democratic Party for the people rather than for the corporations. There are many similar people here, though plenty of us have been banned from DU."

They're not going to take away my party or run me off. I have no one on ignore here. I like to be informed and occasionally comment.

up trouble because no democrat would refuse to vote to keep Trump out of the white house. I dont think any words except "Im voting for the nominee" is sufficient for Sanders OR HRC voters.

After 30 years of voting republican I finally saw the light and changed my registration to the Democratic party last fall. Realize I was not all that politically aware, just a southern, middle class white male born in the 60's doing what we do but not really following politics that close. But the republican party began to scare me. And my father was a deep south FDR democratic who I always disagreed with. I wish he were still alive so I could tell him his was right all along.

I started looking on the internet and the right wing sites scared the hell out of me. Then I found DU. So I finally see the light and there are folks here, on both sides, willing to throw away their votes from a Democratic candidate in the General Election because one candidate or the other is not perfect. I remember how happy(as a republican) I was when Ralph Nader ran in 2000. And how unhappy I was in 1992 when Ross Perot ran as an independent.

For the first time in 10 election cycles I will be voting for the Democratic candidate no matter who, and I discover are folks on the left of the political spectrum stating they will not vote for someone who does not totally share their ideology.

If you live in any state that is reliably blue and you do not vote for the Democratic candidate for President, or throw away your vote on a third party candidate, you need to make sure you are prepared to do one thing: When Trump and a right wing congress and Supreme court start implement fascist policies, keep your Pie-Hole shut. You helped make this happen. Do not post here about how much worse they are even than the most conservative democrat. Some of us already know.

nm

This place can be an amazingly informative community when we stop fighting.

Meanwhile enjoy the Lounge.

I actually have been lurking for a couple of years and never thought I would ever post on any site. I do not Facebook or anything like that. But I guess I have the zeal of a convert and I am shocked at left leaning voters declaring they will, in essence, vote for the republican candidate by throwing away their vote.

aren't helping their candidate.

Pro-deregulation, Pro-cutting welfare, Pro-BigAg, Pro-Charter schools, Pro-fossil fuels, Pro-war for profit, Pro-massive spying on citizens, etc.

Is all that matters the name Democrat?

But this place has me wondering. Hillary herself has me wondering. We don't even know what the GOP's plan is at this point.

The contempt and hostility some promote does not reflect well on them or the site.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

I refuse to support Democrats that just wear the label and act like Republicans. The lessor of two evils is still evil.

If someone doesn't like it, tough shit.

i wish the damn thing had come with a warranty because i sure as hell don't want to buy another one...

freakin' thing really didn't work all that well in retrospect...

i am tired of having to think that two GE no-choices equals a choice...

I am a liberal more than I am a Democrat. If and when my Party ceases to represent my interests and the interests of our country, I have no obligation to support them. Our Party is supposed to represent us. If and when they refuse to do that, they can forget about my support.

It's as simple as that. The Democratic party has morphed into something that more and more represents a moderate version of the gop. Things like supporting fracking, money from Wall Street, opposing Glass Steagall, supporting the TPP- it seems to me that the party has left me, not vice versa.

The people bashing Hillary are the same ones who have been bashing Obama for years (plus the right-wing trolls who have joined in on the fun). The far left never accomplishes anything, they just like to complain.

I sometimes wonder where the party would be if Bill Clinton hadn't shown Democrats how to actually get elected-that is the goal

When I was first started coming here we were "Underground" because we stood against the mainstream Democrats rallying for war.

Now some are trying to nominate one of them.

That's outrageous! Shame on them. Don't they know Democrats are supposed to get in line and do as they're told?

DU is about proving other people wrong, wrong, wrong.

With occasional time-outs for hugs.