2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe 1994 Omnibus Crime Bill did not create mass incarceration.
Mass incarceration was already in place, crime was actually starting to decrease, according to the data.
ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
The Clinton campaign had a hiccup yesterday. President Bill Clinton was at stop in Philadelphia when protesters from the Black Lives Matter movement shouted him down. They said Hillary Clinton should be charged with crimes against humanity for supporting the anti-crime law Bill Clinton signed in 1994. That law funded 100,000 more police officers and new prisons. It also set harsher prison sentences, especially for repeat offenders.
On the campaign trail, Hillary Clinton has backed away from her previous support of that law. The law's defenders say it helped reduce crime. Critics say it threw black people in prison in record numbers. I asked Fordham University law professor John Pfaff what the data show.
JOHN PFAFF: In fact, by the time the law was passed, we were well underway to mass incarceration. By 1994, prison populations had grown by about 250 percent from 1978. And in fact, after 1994, the rate of growth actually slowed down. So we kept adding more and more people, but actually at a slower rate.
SHAPIRO: And what about drug offenders specifically?
PFAFF: So if you look at the state systems, where most people are held in prison, the fraction who are in on drug charges actually started to decline over the course of the 1990s.
SHAPIRO: That sounds completely out of sync with what we are told this crime bill accomplished or the negative consequences the crime bill had.
PFAFF: I mean, I think the crime bill increased the number of drug offenders in federal prison, but the feds make up about 13 percent of all inmates. Eighty-seven percent are held in the state system. And the crime bill's impact on the state system was actually fairly minimal.
SHAPIRO: And so what was the driver of the mass incarceration that we have seen over the last few decades if it wasn't this 1994 crime bill?
PFAFF: So I think it was - a lot of changes actually took place at the state and at the county level. DAs became more aggressive. States passed tougher sentencing laws. Also, simply between 1960 and 1991, we did see a fairly sizable increase in violent and property crime. And some of it was just a response to the underlying trends in offending.
SHAPIRO: If those were the prison numbers, what happened to the crime numbers?
PFAFF: So crime went up until around 1991 and then began sort of a long, slow, steady decline that's continued through pretty much to today.
SHAPIRO: That suggests that the decline in crime that the bill's defenders credit the bill with accomplishing actually started before the bill was even passed.
PFAFF: They did. They started about four years before the bill went into effect. Crime started to go down, and there's no real indication that it went down any faster after the bill was passed. So it didn't seem to change the trends that were already in place.
SHAPIRO: It sounds like you're saying the Clintons cannot be credited with the drop in crime, and they also shouldn't be blamed for the increase in incarceration.
PFAFF: I think that's right. The bill did not raise incarceration, but it also did not reduce crime. Its impact on both was fairly minimal, which is not to say it was a good bill. Many of its provisions were clearly ineffective at the time it was written - three strike laws or forcing violent offenders to spend more time in prison. These things - we already knew at that - in the 1990s that this kind of tough, luck-them-up, throw-away-the-key approach wasn't an effective way to handle crime. So it wasn't sound policy, but I think its overall impact on both prisons and crime was fairly slight.
SHAPIRO: How is it possible that a bill that requires people to spend more time in prison, that says three strikes, you're out, actually didn't have the effect of increasing the prison population?
PFAFF: Most of its tough-on-crime parts like the strike laws only applied to federal offenses. And there just aren't that many federal crimes. Its main state visions were aimed at getting states to spend more money to put violent offenders away for longer periods of time. But in the end, only about four states, actually, really took advantage of that grant program.
SHAPIRO: And so do you think that this political debate we're seeing today is completely misguided, or is there actually truth and value in it?
PFAFF: I think there'd be more value in it if we emphasized how - the things the crime bill could've focused on, but didn't, that matter today. So for example, the crime bill focused - provided no assistance, say, for public defense, which is a huge crisis today. Public defenders' offices are underfunded and overwhelmed. Eighty percent of defendants needs this kind of assistance, and they're getting swamped. And the debate was something like, why did you focus on three strikes and tougher sentencing laws and not on public defense? We could fix the problems we have today. But I think a lot of it is sort of re-litigating something that doesn't really matter that much now.
SHAPIRO: That's Fordham law professor John Pfaff speaking with us about the 1994 crime bill. Thanks a lot.
PFAFF: Thank you very much
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)You have to be kidding right?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I am interested in what objectively happened back then, having lived through the era. What is being spun now is not what happened.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)Has admitted that the bill he signed into law was a detriment to the criminal justice system. Please see, e.g.http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/15/politics/bill-clinton-1994-crime-bill/
But what does the man personally responsible for the law know...?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)This entire issue is taken out of political and historical context to use a campaign issue against the Clintons in a very inaccurate way. The law was supported by members of the Congressional Black Caucus at the time.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)But, besides from a few community leaders, it was not supported by the vast majority of the black community. Further, no, Clinton didn't start the problem, but he was the president of the United States and could have swayed public opinion. Instead of using his soap box to help fight the underlying issues, he went with what the rich, white people were lobbying for and lobbyied for the increase in incarceration and in sentences.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)opposed.
No votes:
1. William Clay, Sr. (D-MO)
2. John Conyers (D-MI)*
3. Charlie Rangel (D-NY)*
4. Bobby Scott (D-VA)*
5. Louis Stokes (D-OH)
6. John Lewis (D-GA)*
7. Earl Hillard (D-AL)
8. Mel Watt (D-NC)*
9. Don Payne, Sr. (D-NJ)
10. Cleo Fields (D-LA)
11. Maxine Waters (D-CA)
12. Ron Dellums (D_CA)
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)to the average black citizen living in "high crime areas" that were against the bill and not those in power that were lobbied by the Clintons to support the party line...
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I actively opposed the bill as a citizen at the time and back then I had a bit of standing and access to do so. It was not a popular position.
The Republicans, and people forget this, they insisted on taking educational opportunities away from prisoners in return for the support lent to the bill by Republicans. So for example prisoners who had been able to get Pell grants to study while incarcerated no longer could, and still can't, and that's just idiotic and petty and this bill was full of that. Idiotic and reactionary politics.
Not many had the foresight. I had good teachers, the foresight was not my own.
Else You Are Mad
(3,040 posts)away from those incarcerated is possibly the worst thing that could have happened to those impacted by the bill. It was a punitive attack on those in prison that ensured that those affected would be repeat offenders. Our justice system is so messed up.
Zira
(1,054 posts)They lobbied many times for more incarceration.
But hey, go believe what they say when they need the black vote when they're campaigning.
Hillary only took the private prison lobby(who lobbies for more incarceration) out of her superpac on Nov 23, 2015, after the Huffington post exposed her for lying to the blacks when she said she would stop mass incarceration. Hill had said that last year WHILE taking money from the prison lobby - hence why the Huffington Post exposed her. She only removed the lobby from her superpac because she had to after the expose'.
Updated title: as Regan did not create 3 strikes so corrected it.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Zira
(1,054 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)What happened is what happened. 1994 crime bill only covered a small percentage of crime. Three strikes was mostly created by state legislatures.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.
U.S. Department of Justice
Fact Sheet
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt
Some things you will see there:
Three Strikes
Mandatory life imprisonment without possibility of parole for Federal
offenders with three or more convictions for serious violent felonies or
drug trafficking crimes.
Gang Crimes
Provides new and stiffer penalties for violent and drug trafficking crimes
committed by gang members.
Death Penalty
Expands the Federal death penalty to cover about 60 offenses, including
terrorist homicides, murder of a Federal law enforcement officer,
large-scale drug trafficking, drive-by-shootings resulting in death and
carjackings resulting in death.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Thus rendering the federal government incapable of creating mass incarceration, which had already happened in the US state prison system before the 1994 law.
24 states have three strikes laws.
The following states have enacted three-strikes laws:
New York has employed a habitual felon statute since 1797.[12]
Texas has had a three-strikes with some form of life sentence (either mandatory, or later optional at the jury's discretion) since at least 1952.[13]
In Rummel v. Estelle (1980), the Supreme Court upheld Texas' statute, which arose from a case involving a refusal to repay $120.75 paid for air conditioning repair that was, depending on the source cited, either considered unsatisfactory[14] or not performed at all,[15] where the defendant had been convicted of two prior felony convictions, and where the total amount involved from all three felonies was around $230.[16][17]
In 1993: Washington
In 1994: California,[18] Colorado, Connecticut, Indiana, Kansas, Maryland, New Mexico, North Carolina, Virginia, Louisiana, Wisconsin, Tennessee, and Georgia[19]
In 1995: Arkansas, Florida, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Utah, and Vermont [20]
In 2006: Arizona
In 2012: Massachusetts[21]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)133,689. And look at all those States that followed the Federal example, some taking grants to lock up more for longer....
This link to the Federal Bureau of Prisons shows you a graph of the Federal Prisoner population over the years, marked with each year.....
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/population_statistics.jsp#old_pops
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)He was wrong.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders campaign manager on Thursday reiterated the senators reasoning for voting in favor of the Clinton administrations 1994 Crime Bill despite serious reservations. The House version of the bill included a ban on semi-automatic assault weapons. Sanders had supported the ban since 1988. The conference committee version included not only the assault weapons ban but also the Violence Against Women Act provisions. Sanders supported these efforts to protect women.
In Sanders statement at the time, he criticized the mass incarceration and death penalty provisions in the bill, saying:
it is also my view that through the neglect of our Government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence.
And Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world, and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country, and all of the executions in the world, will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails.
Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance.
During consideration of the bill, Sanders voted six times to weaken or eliminate the death penalty provisions and voted separately against creating new mandatory minimums. Then-First Lady Hillary Clinton spoke strongly in favor of increased incarceration, labeling at risk youth as super-predators who had to be brought to heel.
..
Jarqui
(10,130 posts)(CNN)Bill Clinton said Wednesday that the crime bill he signed into law as President in 1994 worsened the nation's criminal justice system by increasing prison sentences.
"I signed a bill that made the problem worse," Clinton told an audience at the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's annual meeting in Philadelphia. "And I want to admit it."
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Let's not forget that wonderful phrase of the Clintons.
Zira
(1,054 posts)It's only par for the course since Hillary said it to support Bill's crime bill, in the first place.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I can't believe this is being defended here.
Jarqui
(10,130 posts)who used that term received.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Must be a lesser of two evils vote, I've pulled the lever for the same reason.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Bill Clinton rejected a U.S. Sentencing Commission recommendation to eliminate the disparity between crack and powder cocaine sentences. He also rejected calls to end the federal ban on funding for syringe access programs.
Hillary's views on drugs have gradually improved but she is still trapped in the old drug warrior ways of thought. Her wait-and-see attitude about marijuana is, at this stage of the game, just dumb.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Bernie pie in the sky about mass incarceration?
So we know that Sanders voted for mass incarceration while in congress. But now he says he will fix it. However, the promise he made apparently cannot be fulfilled unless he wants hundreds of thousands of violent criminals convicted of rape, murder, etc on the streets.
Is he just shining folks on? Or does he plan to release violent criminals? Or is he just uninformed about what he is promising?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251885143
See? It's all Bernie, and Mass Incarceration....
Sanders, unlike anyone else running, voted for the 1994 Violent Crime Control & Law Enforcement Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026757168
So why all that whining and crying about one House member's vote if it was not a big deal?
TheBlackAdder
(28,211 posts).
Create hyper-addictive people, increase crime, create the foundations of fear, and presto...
Popular support for increases in police, increases in locking people up. The start of a Police State.
Now, if there was only a way to see who leant support for the Contra efforts... Hmmm.
.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...along with former Black Panther, Bobby Rush?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You know the parts that your candidate pushed for?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Bobby Rush voted for DOMA and later when SCOTUS overturned DOMA Bobby Rush failed to mention that he had voted for it when exploiting the moment to polish Bobby Rush's image:
House Democrat Bobby Rush of Chicago said the high court confirmed what civil rights leader the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. said: "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice."Rush called the landmark decision a "victory for all Americans."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-supreme-court-gay-marriage-illinois-delegation-met-20150626-story.html
How Illinois Voted on DOMA
In the House, where everyone was up for re-election, only two Illinoisans voted no: Luis Gutierrez and Jesse Jackson Jr. Besides Gutierrez, the only members still serving are Bobby Rush and Dick Durbin, who was then a congressman representing a Central Illinois district. Both voted in favor of DOMA.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/How-Illinois-Voted-on-DOMA-200365831.html
I have a few issues with all of that sort of posturing positioning and lack of clarity.