2016 Postmortem

kcjohn1

(751 posts) Mon Apr 11, 2016, 04:46 PM Apr 2016

Another Clinton Lie: Vermont drowning NY with Guns

Just saw it on MSNBC. She said "per capita" Vermont leads the states where illegal guns come from to NY.

This lady can lie with just ease. So misleading, and no correction from MSNBC of course. It may be true for per capita due to Vermont small size, but here is the fact.

In 2014, officials traced only 55 of 4,585 guns used in New York crimes to Vermont. Before 2013, there were too few to be reported

26 replies

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Another Clinton Lie: Vermont drowning NY with Guns (Original Post) kcjohn1 Apr 2016 OP

That presents a mathematical impossibility. guillaumeb Apr 2016 #1

you have to divide the 55 by Vermont's population and then divide 92.4 by avg pop for the other Bill USA Apr 2016 #11

There you go again, using actual math instead of #BernMath, which has no relation to reality n/t SFnomad Apr 2016 #13

Clinton oversimplified to make a Vermont connection to attack Sanders. guillaumeb Apr 2016 #14

In other words, you didn't understand the math wyldwolf Apr 2016 #19

This message was self-deleted by its author guillaumeb Apr 2016 #25

Hartmann debunked that one on the air Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #2

LOL. "It may be true for per capita." That means it's not a lie. DanTex Apr 2016 #3

to Sanders fans most everything she says is lie. Shameful riversedge Apr 2016 #4

This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #6

Not every Sanders fan says this: guillaumeb Apr 2016 #7

Per capita. DanTex Apr 2016 #9

What she said: guillaumeb Apr 2016 #12

Yes, and that statement is true. Most of the guns come from out of state. DanTex Apr 2016 #15

This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #16

Well, gee, since you've personally spoken to them, I guess we should ignore the statistics then... DanTex Apr 2016 #17

This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #20

No, those don't contribute to the statistics. DanTex Apr 2016 #21

This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #23

This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Apr 2016 #24

I thought they mostly come from Virginia. moondust Apr 2016 #5

A much bigger problem is NYC heroin traveling up the Interstate to Vermont. Vinca Apr 2016 #8

Here is Camp Clinton's favorite NYC paper, the Daily News giving the trus in 2013 Bluenorthwest Apr 2016 #10

That's where Bosnian snipers get their rifles. dogman Apr 2016 #18

She never used those words. Per capita... Jitter65 Apr 2016 #22

If there is a little carry over to NY causing all of their killing, then Vermont as the braddy Apr 2016 #26

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)

1. That presents a mathematical impossibility.

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 04:56 PM

Apr 2016

Assuming that the numbers of total guns and the guns traced to Vermont are correct, let us do the math.

4585 total guns, minus 55 guns from Vermont leaves 4530 other guns.

Divide 4530 by the other 49 states and one is left with an average number of 92.4 guns from every other state.

According to my math, 92.4>55. So the claim is nonsense.

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)

11. you have to divide the 55 by Vermont's population and then divide 92.4 by avg pop for the other

Reply to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:34 PM

Apr 2016

49 states, to come up with a 'per capita' comparison.

She was using 'per capita' statistic to 'normalize' the data. For example is it sensible to compare Vermont with a population of 626,630 to a Pennsylvania, with a population of 12,773,801? The only fair way to compare the states is to use a per capita basis.

SFnomad

(3,473 posts)

13. There you go again, using actual math instead of #BernMath, which has no relation to reality n/t

Reply to Bill USA (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:35 PM

Apr 2016

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)

14. Clinton oversimplified to make a Vermont connection to attack Sanders.

Reply to Bill USA (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:37 PM

Apr 2016

The oversimplification may not qualify as an outright lie, she did nuance her statement a bit, but the intent is clear.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)

19. In other words, you didn't understand the math

Reply to guillaumeb (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 06:33 PM

Apr 2016

Response to wyldwolf (Reply #19)

guillaumeb This message was self-deleted by its author.

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)

2. Hartmann debunked that one on the air

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 04:57 PM

Apr 2016

last week

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

3. LOL. "It may be true for per capita." That means it's not a lie.

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 04:59 PM

Apr 2016

riversedge

(70,244 posts)

4. to Sanders fans most everything she says is lie. Shameful

Reply to DanTex (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:04 PM

Apr 2016

Response to riversedge (Reply #4)

CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)

7. Not every Sanders fan says this:

Reply to riversedge (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:20 PM

Apr 2016

But the statement is mathematically impossible

Assuming that the numbers of total guns and the guns traced to Vermont are correct, let us do the math.

4585 total guns, minus 55 guns from Vermont leaves 4530 other guns.

Divide 4530 by the other 49 states and one is left with an average number of 92.4 guns from every other state.

According to my math, 92.4>55. So the claim is nonsense.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

9. Per capita.

Reply to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:25 PM

Apr 2016

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)

12. What she said:

Reply to DanTex (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:35 PM

Apr 2016

This is what she said:

"

Here's what I want you to know: most of the guns that are used in crimes and violence and killings in New York come from out of state," she said at an event focused on gun control issues in Port Washington, N.Y.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-vermont-guns-responsible-for-new-york-violence/

Probably true of most states. I know it is true for Illinois. But this misleading mix of accusations, from a lawyer who knows how to parse her words, tries to tie Sanders to gun violence by implying that most guns used in New York crimes come from Vermont.

Nice attempt at deflection. She could have simply said that most guns used come from out of state, without the so- called Vermont connection, but she is trying everything she can do to slow the Sanders momentum.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

15. Yes, and that statement is true. Most of the guns come from out of state.

Reply to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:38 PM

Apr 2016

And, per capita, the biggest "exporter" of criminal guns to NY is VT.

Those are two different statements, and both of them are true.

Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

17. Well, gee, since you've personally spoken to them, I guess we should ignore the statistics then...

Reply to CompanyFirstSergeant (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:56 PM

Apr 2016

Response to DanTex (Reply #17)

CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)

21. No, those don't contribute to the statistics.

Reply to CompanyFirstSergeant (Reply #20)

Tue Apr 12, 2016, 07:45 AM

Apr 2016

The stats come from the ATF, for guns that are used in crimes and then traced. Guns that are confiscated at the airport don't get traced by the ATF.

Response to DanTex (Reply #21)

CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to DanTex (Reply #21)

CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.

moondust

(19,993 posts)

5. I thought they mostly come from Virginia.

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:05 PM

Apr 2016

A state with a compromising Clintonite governor.

2/26/16

RICHMOND — Declaring the start of a “new era,” Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) on Friday signed into law a package of gun bills, the product of a deal struck with Republican lawmakers that cost him the support of some of his strongest allies in the fight for gun control.

Opponents of the compromise, including Andy Parker, the outspoken father of a television journalist who was killed in southwest Virginia, noted that McAuliffe’s victory lap came on the six-month anniversary of his daughter’s shooting.

~

The deal would expand the rights of concealed-carry handgun permit holders in Virginia and around the country in exchange for tighter restrictions on domestic abusers and voluntary background checks at gun shows.

~more~

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/mcauliffe-signs-gun-control-compromise-into-law/2016/02/26/4178f196-dcb8-11e5-891a-4ed04f4213e8_story.html

Vinca

(50,279 posts)

8. A much bigger problem is NYC heroin traveling up the Interstate to Vermont.

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:22 PM

Apr 2016

That happens on a daily basis and the arrests are in the newspaper to prove it.

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)

10. Here is Camp Clinton's favorite NYC paper, the Daily News giving the trus in 2013

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 05:26 PM

Apr 2016

" Bloomberg released a list of the top 10 out-of-state sources for firearms used in city crimes.

Virginia placed first and was followed by North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Florida, Ohio, Alabama, Texas and West Virginia.

All those states have some sort of "private sale loophole” that doesn’t require background checks, Bloomberg said. And those guns are maiming and killing New Yorkers, he said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/out-of-state-guns-ny-gun-crimes-article-1.1414139

The link has easy to read charts and maps with big arrows pointing to NY from various States......

dogman

(6,073 posts)

18. That's where Bosnian snipers get their rifles.

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Mon Apr 11, 2016, 06:31 PM

Apr 2016

In her spinning mind.

Jitter65

(3,089 posts)

22. She never used those words. Per capita...

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Tue Apr 12, 2016, 08:16 AM

Apr 2016

And per capita, Vermont is either 3rd or 4th in incarceration of blacks.

braddy

(3,585 posts)

26. If there is a little carry over to NY causing all of their killing, then Vermont as the

Reply to kcjohn1 (Original post)

Wed Apr 13, 2016, 09:15 PM

Apr 2016

center of the gun supplies, must be almost a Road Warrior society with death just a part of their apocalyptic hellish gun owning society.

Seems like I would have heard more about it in the newspapers.

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