but this kind of post makes me have zero compassion for you. Like I do not care about you.

But you have to admit, he overall did way better than you thought he would when you jumped on board!

do a bit of self-examination about the campaign and ask why, despite coming into this thing with a nearly cleared deck and every party-enabled advantage in the book, along with a heavy air of "inevitability", she still performed as poorly as she did.

The easy answers will be "misogyny", "they just don't like her/everyone is out to get her", that sort of thing. And yeah, it's there, and some people don't/are.

But the things she COULD have fixed, she clearly wasn't intending to, like coming into the campaign ready to run on empty gibberish like "the middle class needs a champion" (changed from "everyday Americans" which was a little too close to "everyday low prices&quot

and who can forget such gems like the "planned spontaneity" and "improved authenticity rollout"?

Does anyone honestly believe that, without Sanders in the race (forcing her to be a better candidate, I truly believe) the past 6 months wouldn't have been a steady stream of painfully poll-tested pablum sprinkled with (god, no) the occasional country music video?

Looking forward.. CAN she do better? Is she capable of it? I hope so.

(And of course, the nature of modern politics begs the question as to whether or not competent governance really even has a whole lot to do with being able to run a competent or inspiring campaign, but that's a question for another day. In the meantime, we still want and need to win.)

as we transition- and I suspect we are likely to- towards a GE footing, it would be nice if Hillary's campaign and supporters did some real self-examination about how to appeal to and inspire the folks who have felt less than inspired, by her campaign, particularly younger voters. And it would be great it we all could find other ways to handle it besides "screw those people, they're all a bunch of %))%s because they did this and said that and blah, blah, blah NEVER FORGIVE NEVER FORGET"

And I would apply that to BOTH sides.

But, I know better than to hold my breath on that.

My hope is that he has inspired many to take this further.
We laugh at the Teabaggers but they were smart enough to win seats locally for years, which led to Teabagger/creepy asshole Cruz actually having a chance to be POTUS!

Too many beltway types have been listening to the sound of their own wheels spinning for too long, while imagining it is the divinely ordained music of the spheres.

Or somethin'.

I think Bernie knows that he owns the West, and that is why he is staying in the campaign until the very end.

that TX, AZ, NM, LA, MO, AR, and OH are all west of the Mississippi right?

Thanks so much for that.

???

We'll chalk it up to being very late at night and you being obviously disappointed.

+ a few more.

...and I'm still never voting for her.

And it's fine, it's your vote.

Think I celebrated my bday a little to much. I meant Iowa.

Not one.

We all know what a disaster that would be.

I take it to mean they are willing to bust the nation to teach everyone a lesson for not voting for Bernie. It means, letting a Republican win the GE will be a "serves you right" lesson and therefore a preferred President to a Democrat

I've always understood "or Bust" means we'll do anything to get where we want to be.

Didn't the pioneers say "California or Bust"? Something like that.

It means you've failed, you're broken (physically, financially, emotionally), you're unable to move any further, you're finished, done, wasted, kaput.

It does ***NOT*** mean that you've seen a little difficulty, and will have a better chance to succeed next time around. With "or bust", there is no next time!

So in this context, "Bernie or bust" is blackmail meaning either we nominate Bernie, or we see the utter destruction of the progressive movement and the Democratic Party.

Sorry, but I *like* the Democratic Party and the progressive movement too much to see it high-jacked by people who relish in attacking them and wish to see them fail.

Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Hillary has to earn our vote. I am not voting for a Hawk who considers Kissinger a wonderful advisor...sorry.

If the Democratic Party would like us to vote for the candidate they need to run one we can stomach without having to vote for the lessor of two evils.

So for me, and I only speak for me, I will not vote for "the lessor of two evils". My vote is earned NOT given.

Been a Dem for 40 years and have voted for the lessor for too long now. NO MORE.

If a republican wins that is the DNC's fault - not mine. If Hillary can not earn the voters that is her fault.

Simply because you blame me does not make it truel

Plenty of posters have tried in vein to explain this. It doesn't mean our rationale is right, but it must be willful ignorance on your part if you don't at least address the reasons we put forward, and instead go with this bullshit straw-man.

Here's a very simplistic version for you. Bear in mind, this is based on my version of the state of things, not necessarily the state of things.

I want what's best for this nation. Damn straight that's not Trump. He's a fucking embarrassment. But I am tired of being tacked over to the slow lane and lulled to sleep by democrats, who from my perspective, are working for the same interests the republicans are working for, and driving us down the same road. Its just a lot more elegant when they do it. They're taking money from the same people the Republicans do, so that they can be viable candidates in our ridiculously expensive election process. By necessity, their interests are the interests of the corporate elite, or else they wouldn't have gotten so far(unless they are off in some corner like Vermont) and even if they would like to do some good, the price for it is always too damn high.

This election cycle in particular, has been very enlightening to me as to what "insider" really means. It means to me, good intentions or not, that no good will ever be done under these conditions. What will be done is we will continue to fight over solutions for the symptoms while the real illnesses go unchecked, and sadly, I've come to the conclusion that that's the way both parties like it.

I think a Trump presidency would be humiliating, and his candidacy alone is making the looneys come out of the woodwork. But in my opinoion, he's only in a position to become president because Republican's and Democrats alike have continued to foster a war around wedge issues and not the bigger picture items that make people more susceptible to fear and tribalism. That means he's not going to be the last.

I don't want to "serve anybody right" by not voting for his opponent. The funny thing is though, I'd be more likely to vote for Hillary over Ted Cruz or Kasitch, because in the case of insider vs insider, I'll go with the lesser of two evils, even if it continues to validate the DNC system of disenfranchising liberal voters. Trump though, is such a bumbling fool, with likeables in the toilet. He's no Hitler or Stalin. He's a lightening rod for righteous fury and action because he isn't tactful, and he isn't smart. The backlash to a Trump Presidency is likely to be monumental, and nobody, republican and democrat alike are going to work with him. Am I willing to bet the next 4 years on that(assuming he wouldn't get impeached first), I ... doubt it. It scares the hell out of me. But so does our current and continued trajectory as a nation, irrespective of the party at the wheel.

So please, by all means, talk about how we're conspiracy theorists, or naive to the complicated issues that make tweaks to the status quo the far better option to political revolution, but the next time you characterize our reasons for considering passing on the GE Presidential ticket as vindictiveness and nothing more, well know that you would be lying.

You are the one who lacks the historical knowledge of statements made here.

Your noble cause and verbose writings mean little when compared to the reality of statements made here for all to read.

Fwiw at DU we attempt to stick with the terms of service and avoid personal attacks, like calling a fellow board member a liar.

Before you engage in more conversations with this person, please read his transparency tab first. in my opinion, as someone that has been here 10 years, I would not waste my time.

That's one sick puppy.

1. He's not that into foreign military involvement
2. He doesn't take corporate cash
3. He's been consistent on his issues for years

These three things are the exact opposite of what I see in Hillary Clinton. In order for me to vote for her, I need to set aside three things that are very important to me. That's what the Bernie or Bust struggle is to me.

anyone else if Trump did win. It's grotesque.

I thought Hillary's peeps said politics is a contact sport?

Hillary buried him.

have been a liitle bit unruly the last week.
Since the debate when she really put it away.

You have to expect a little bit of push back now that he's done.

Have fun in the GE.

The un-Democratic lot of them are going to continue their insulting and bellyaching for the foreseeable future. Every single thing from here on out will be "rigged," "stolen," or some other complaint.

They were never Democrats to start with, and they are intent on taking the party down with their golden boy.

I am kind of curious to see Jill Stein's numbers in November. She will probably get some good money from the Feds to the Greens...


Interesting times, interesting times.

...what the Hillary OP above says we do and yet YOU are doing just that. Saying we are not dems...what an Ass.

I have been a Dem voter for 40 years...never once deviating...never once. And often sending money to those I support - like Franken, Warren and others.

Bernie was close and will get a good number of delegates - a very good number....so he is still in the game and that is chapping your rump because you all want him out...well we are not getting out!

Bernie and his supporters are running a good campaign that are exposing aspects of our candidate we would rather not have exposed

It's over and believe me the treatment many received from BSers wasn't nice.

This was a nastily run campaign, with untrue innuendo of corruption.

I'm glad it's over, FINALLY. Everyone should be.

Hillary's campaign manager John Podesta (Group) handles PR (public relations) for billions of dollars in arms sales to the Saudis from such big players like Lockheed Martin.
You know Saudi Arabia?... the country responsible for 9/11?
Well the John Podesta Group is essentially a go-between that helps Saudi Arabia with their image to further sales growth in weaponry, etc.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/01/07/washingtons-multi-million-dollar-saudi-pr-machine

In Latin America her support for coup regimes, militarization, and privatization; trade deals that wreak economic havoc, all of which have resulted in death.

http://www.thenation.com/article/a-voters-guide-to-hillary-clintons-policies-in-latin-america/

"Hillary has nothing to brag about: Her foreign policy record is a disaster"

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/23/there_is_no_foreign_policy_d_league_hillarys_foreign_policy_disastrous_experience_partner/

She has waffled mightily regarding the potentially disastrous Trans Pacific Partnership trade deal (TPP).

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/08/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-now-opposes-trans-pacific-partners/

She was for fracking and the Keystone XL pipeline before she told us she isn't.

"Hillary Clinton's State Department Sold Fracking to the World"
http://m.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

She is a recent convert to supporting same sex marriage after a decade of opposing it.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

...supporter to supporter from both sides.

I'm more issue oriented although I'm not squeaky clean I'll admit.

But going after each other I find pointless.

I just don't get the visceral hatred towards a man who has lived his entire life according to the principles of civil rights and economic and social justice. I'm just so heartbroken about the way our party has been divided because I thought we were better than that... but I also hope that the party as a whole isn't represented by what I see on DU, so maybe in real life it's not so bad. Gosh, I hope not.

and the bern baggers are upset that all those stupid Democratic voters made their preference known.

Well, there's always a home for them over at Jackassradicals.

They're back in they're "You have to be nice to us if you want our vote" bullshit.

Maybe later. For now, you reap what you sowed for the past month.

They will just take their game to another party, a progressive one.

but the missing Bernie supporters will be replaced by 2 kitchen table issue Democrats.
The ones who don't think Pragmatism and compromise are dirty words.

Who understand that steady progress will always get you there faster in the long run.

You've got nowhere to pull any 2 for 1 voters out of anywhere. There is but one untapped source of voters and that is the folks on the couch and the folks running the Turd Way show are all about doing nothing to mobilize and invigorate those people, might as well work with the stinking leftist if that was the direction they were willing to go that would be easier.

So, that leaves the move right to fail to pick up Independents hokey pokey or the unicorn crapping 4 leaf clover rare "moderate" Republicans shuffle both of which are not only nonsense but actually preposterous.

There is nothing particularly left to hook and reel in conservatives and be able to hold what is the firewall of votes. Gonna give them a half loaf on abortion? Gonna build "The Wall"? Gonna let cops murder more black kids or deny the vote to them? Gonna roll back gay rights? Gonna repeal Obamacare? Gonna get those deportations up? Gonna finish off the unions?

Nutty as the clowns have been, I don't think you have enough cover to give right about anything else. I honestly do not believe you have enough chips to cover that bet.

You can't replace much beyond typical bleed rates and even that is only because of truly ridiculous options from the opposition, I say.

There are no 2 for 1 votes hiding in the bushes over yonder. That is bluster. Whistling past the graveyard.

The already red states will stay red. The already blue states will stay blue.
It will come down to swing states just like it always does.

OH FL and this year VA and probly NC will be in play.
Bernie wouldn't have come anywhere close to winning those states.

Those are kitchen table working family states with large diverse populations.
When Bernie started talking about Democratic Socialism and free college the voters in those states
saw it as naive idealism. President Obama couldn't get a public option on the ACA because the congressional
support wasnt there but somehow Bernie will deliver universal healthcare for all. And when ask how he'd do it
he deflects with talk about a revolution and marching on Washington.
That's a naive pipe dream.

Kitchen table issue voters don't have time for Bernies we want it all right now, no compromise revolution.
They see that as unrealistic.
Their importanat right now issues are the same as they've always been.
Working their jobs, raising their families, getting their kids to school and soccer practice and
making their payments and stretching their money.

The vast majority of those voters are ok with incrementalism. Things have gotten steadily if slowly better since 2008.
They're not going to put that progress at risk for Bernies ideas when he can't even explain how he intends to get them passed or pay for them.
All or nothing doesn't appeal to most families who tend to be more than 1 issue voters.
They're sure as hell not going to trust anybody the Republicans are offering.

I understand that Bernies supporters are very disappointed but saying over and over only Bernie can win
isn't supported by the facts.
He couldn't even get Democrats who describe themselves as very liberal to vote for him.

Except for MI Bernies successes came in small not very diverse states. I don't mean racially diverse altho that too.

I liked a lot of Bernies ideas and in 20 more years we may be ready as a country to give those ideas a try but right now we're not.
We 're not going to get there with some over night revolution.

Sorry that your candidate lost.

Sounds like shrinking the political map back to the Kerry math and trying to eek out a narrow win against a ridiculous opponent.

Fucking brilliant!

He wasn't ever going to win those states
keep on letting your anger drive you if that's what it takes.

She will be president Bernie supporters can't wish that away anymore than they could wish Bernie
to the nominatation.

Hillary will take all of those swing states and that will easily offset the Bernie supporters in the already rock solid blue states who won't vote for her.

How is putting states like NC in play shrinking the map.
You seem to suffer from tunnel vision.

You don't like her so nobody will vote for her.
If that were true then Bernie would be our nominee.

just as we would be though we at least could make a play for the couches, you will not because you are unwilling to attract them because they doesn't work for the real people you serve.

You claimed the magical 2 for 1 but it is a crock, if you could have got those 2 for 1 votes you would have already and had 3 losing none.

I never said anything about a secret cache of voters.
Hillary will carry Democrats and liberals and moderates. She'll even carry right of center
Indies and Republicans.

Those voters aren't secret. The tent will get bigger.
Most of Bernie supporters will vote for her. Exit polls yesterday showed only 13%
of Bernie voters wouldn't support Hillary.
Not 13% of all voters. 13% of the small minority that voted for Bernie.

Hillary got more total votes yesterday than all the Republican combined.

Of course there will be some perpetually disgruntled Bernie or Bust people.

They won't be missed.
Average Americans rejected Bernie decisively.

Bernie lost.

The Bernie or bust bravado is annoying as hell and it will be great day when that level of mentality is gone from DU

but I cannot understand supposed democrats voting for a neocon in sheep's clothing.

Actually, I don't wish I had more tolerance. You guys are screwing the world.

No one ever made the mistake of thinking you were that type.

He worries me.

Desperate and unwilling to understand how odds work as the remaining delegates become unavailable.

Bernie will not concede. I'd say there is an 80% chance he will not stay a Democrat, and he will not campaign for Hillary.

Sanders has spent twice as much as Hillary for around half the votes. Those who are funding him as an investment--Rove, for example--are going to cut off the funding stream as it becomes clear he can't produce.

Hillary spent comfortably more this campaign than Bernie, I posted a link proving it just a day or two ago.

Where Bernie spend 5.4 million and Hillary 2.8 million, partially just because she had so much infrastructure there already.

and other states. It keeps cropping up precisely because it's true.

You're right. You have no compassion.

Just because of a few unpleasant people (which you have on your side too - trust me on that), you have lost your compassion? Really?

Have you contemplated what it would feel like to read an OP like yours after such a bitter loss if the tables were turned? Especially if so many people who wanted to vote for Hillary were purged and switched, and exit polls, once again, were waaay off, the discrepancy, once again, in Bernie's favor? How would you feel?

Just read your OP and imagine it the other way around.

And no, I'm not saying "Hillary" stole the election, but somebody is doing a masterful job of disenfranchising Bernie voters.

or vote for Trump or someone else, that is their issue, NOT mine.

turn around and say, you should really treat us nice for our votes and bring us back into the fold. After treating others like pieces of crap?

Sorry, doesn't work that way, at this very minute anyways.

At a Democratic forum. Think about that really hard.

than actually having more votes in an election.

Or something.



Think about that really hard.

People here (mostly) have no political capital at risk by their support, so its a good way of seeing who genuinely liberal and progressive people gravitate towards.

etc., pretending to be liberals and progressives. Judging by the sheer volume of right wing propaganda papering the walls of this particular forum, they have been very successful in using DU to spread their special brand of criticism.

Pretty sure the admins are changing the way things work around here for a reason.

Some trolls on the Bernie side definitely got away with murder because of over-weighed juries, but after the rules were changed a lot of Hillary trolls were allowed back to continue trolling. The system was broken on both sides.

Makes a note: 'BB doesn't give a crap if someone doesn't vote for Hillary in the GE' if she makes it.

this nonsense up to the bitter end.

...because you think it's about Bernie and that's it.

for weakness. Even Bernie got as nasty as Weaver and Devine. I'm not cutting any more slack.

It's over, he can't win. They need to face reality, no matter how strongly we have to keep saying it.

And there's a place where the sun doesn't shine. Put your compassion there.

That's DESPICABLE.

OP is misleading.

That was enough to rile up the mob.

such as being photographed speaking to her as Goodall was, makes them a target of the small but extremely obnoxious minority of Bernie supporters.

Vicious, vicious, vicious...

Nothing more to add beyond what you've already said here, just AMEN.

You don't wish that at all. Who do you think you are fooling?

The Bernstorm will win all 5 states next week with conviction that NY election results has to be completely considered fraud.

The superiority complexes, the name calling. The character attacks from Bernie and his followers. Sickening

And I won't shed a tear for you.

Trump Supporters, un-Democratic , golden boy, bern baggers.
"This has been one of the most disgusting, mean, rude campaigns ever run, imho.
I agree with ya there

If we followed up investing in our young people instead of putting them into wage slavery, curing people instead of forcing them to pay for profit Healthcare for the rest of their life taking meds. Getting off the Fossil Fuel addiction, having a choice where we can be self-sustainable and not a slave to Big Energy. Making sure everyone can afford and eat Organic food, including the homeless and incarcerated.
Breaking up the Big Banks so we don't have to worry about a crash that makes us all look like Detroit or seeing a trade bill passed that will essentially dissolve everything the labor movement worked for over 100 years, see: TPP. Lets not forget all the people that will die because their medical treatments will become too expensive. It will firmly establish a "Digital Feudalism&quot Max Keiser) in many areas of the arts(Max Keiser). What will it take for us to grow up?! When they print a barcode around our necks?!
I say, Viva Meshnet!!!!!!

how that sounds. You cannot blame a whole category of people for what a few of them do. Believe me, there are plenty of Hillary supporters who do the same things. In fact, Hillary has a large team of paid "digital responders" working for David Brock, the guy who ginned up the stories about Anita Hill, who churn up and throw dirt at all of her opponents 24/7. But I don't blame all Hillary supporters for this, just the one's doing it.

We've ripped up a bunch of sexism and anti-Semitism in our party, not to mention just a bunch of people on both sides who have no idea how to talk to or about black people, LGBTQ people, or poor people.

I hope Hillary supporters accept they embarrassed themselves too. I'm ashamed of my side enough, but you guys need to own it.