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Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:19 AM Apr 2016

A single spark can start a prairie fire

Those of us who have any respect for Hillary know that her record is progressive. While some have come to believe that she is some kind of reactionary, the fact remains that all her stances were at worst mainstream Democrat and at best progressive. The attacks on her are mostly political.

There's no denying that Hillary is far more of a politician than Bernie, though on issues such as gun rights and the stealth bomber Bernie showed he too was capable of being a politician when necessary. There's no denying that Bernie is more progressive than Hillary, but by most measures she was a reliable progressive, and like it or not, people like Kennedy, Kerry, Gore, and even FDR had strong ties and support from Wall Street. There's no denying that Bernie is one of the rare ethical and honest politicians, but Hillary is not the corrupt liar that political campaigns make her out to be. She overall has an honest record, even if you disagree with some of her choices or dislike the way she and her husband went from middle class to almost as wealthy as Gore and Kerry.

But, even though she is a little to the right of Bernie maybe she would be the better choice if we want real change.

When Obama got elected, he also helped sweep in a Democratic Congress. During those two years, major legislation was passed. The Stimulus Bill, which created tens of thousands of blue collar jobs, invested heavily in renewable energy, put 100s of billions of dollars into healthcare and education, and so much more was like nothing we had seen since the New Deal. Healthcare reform, a dream of Democrats since at least the early 1970s, came to fruition in a tough battle where every single Republican voted against it, and the Democrats were forced to woo their conservative Blue Dog Democrats. Many smaller bills were passed, such as The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Hate Crimes Prevention Act and the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. It was an awesome two years.

But, then in 2010 everyone stayed home, especially the millennials. In both 2010 and 2014, only 20% of millennials voted and in 2014, they voted Democratic by only a 54 to 43% margin. Needless to say Republicans gained control, and Obama was forced to govern from the center and act alone to get anything at all progressive done.

I think that if Sanders gets elected, there's the risk that the same thing that happened with Obama will happen again -- a large part of the anti-establishment movement will be co-opted or will feel it's achieved its aim and largely disband.

But, what happens if the election is between Trump and Hillary and Hillary wins? The anti-establishment movement will certainly not be satisfied. You have the millennials who have no love of the establishment, even if they vote for Hillary, and you have the Trump supporters who feel the same way. Doesn't this lay the groundwork for a real political revolution? If Hillary wins and the movement remains strong, it may become something we haven't seen since the era of the great labor movements and great civil rights movements.

Mao Tse Tung said, "A single spark can start a prairie fire." Well, in Bernie and Trump we have two sparks. If they both lose, that may be enough to start a real political revolution, one that is run by the people, not the institutions of power.

Given that Bernie is among the most ethical presidential candidates in history, my guess is Bernie will not do what's best for him or even for the Democratic Party, but will do what's best for the social movement he's helped inspire. My guess is that he will negotiate soon with Hillary to secure some gains, do what he can to get his supporters to vote for Hillary, and figure out a way to keep his movement alive. If he does, then the Trump supporters will be able to come left to continue their own revolution, and the White House and Congress will be kept on notice.

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A single spark can start a prairie fire (Original Post) Onlooker Apr 2016 OP
the bernie crowd will not vote for hillary and would not even before they ever heard of bernie nt msongs Apr 2016 #1
That is not true. You're thinking of DU and not the real world. musicblind Apr 2016 #4
The ones that refused to consider her in 2008 do, like me. Kittycat Apr 2016 #10
Feminists will vote for Hillary Onlooker Apr 2016 #11
Sorry, I'm not going to take your bait. I'll just put you on ignore. Kittycat Apr 2016 #12
Funny how the poor women of that generation back Hillary by large numbers Onlooker Apr 2016 #14
I did not say every single person would vote for her. musicblind Apr 2016 #17
Bernie will remain in until the convention. No reason not to. He has the money and the supporters. peacebird Apr 2016 #2
Of course not pat_k Apr 2016 #3
Ethical? Not from where I'm sitting he isn't. n/t Lucinda Apr 2016 #5
If Hillary wins we need to organize to stop the next horrific neocon war. killbotfactory Apr 2016 #6
Appreciate the effort...But I am not accepting this Armstead Apr 2016 #7
World war III angrychair Apr 2016 #8
Not sure that Bernie could get me to vote for Hillary. That Guy 888 Apr 2016 #9
In the end, a democrat in the White House does more to advance my issues than not. LostOne4Ever Apr 2016 #13
You're post seems to reflect my sentiments tech3149 Apr 2016 #16
You lost me in the first sentence. frustrated_lefty Apr 2016 #15
If you want a President to sign progressive laws, elect the President a progressive Congress. nt IamMab Apr 2016 #18

musicblind

(4,484 posts)
4. That is not true. You're thinking of DU and not the real world.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:33 AM
Apr 2016

I voted for Hillary in 2008 and Bernie got my vote this time. If Hillary wins the nomination then she will get my vote in the general; if Bernie wins the nomination then he will get my vote in the general.

Not all Bernie supporters hate Hillary.

Kittycat

(10,493 posts)
10. The ones that refused to consider her in 2008 do, like me.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:51 AM
Apr 2016

She didn't earn my vote in 2008, and there is no way in cold hell she's getting it now after the horrors she's committed since. Worse for her, democrats have abandoned the party since 2008. Independents now make up 42% of the electorate, and our party is a lifetime low of 29%. The democratic party super delegates had better do some serious soul searching before that first vote is ever called to the convention floor this summer. I'm voting my values come November, and I sure as hell will not be voting for Bush Lite.

 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
11. Feminists will vote for Hillary
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:04 AM
Apr 2016

I think most feminists understand the issues and the meaning of what it is to be a woman candidate in a white male establishment and the importance of getting a woman elected. Real feminists, even those who supported Bernie, will vote for Hillary. Women for Bernie probably has many feminists among them, and they will vote for Hillary. I think people understand that the white male establishment has been defining Hillary for years as shrill, smirking, cackling, a lying woman, a dishonest woman, an incompetent women, etc. and using other subtle forms of sexism to make her out to be far worse than she is. (Yes, there are a handful of isolated things she's done that are disappointing, but the same is true to some extent for Bernie, and there are some reasonable things she's done that one can disagree with.) But, I truly believe that those who are well read in the issues of feminism, in the backlash to women's rights (Susan Faludi's great book Backlash is highly recommended), and in the rise of microaggressions against women will come around and support her even if there are things they don't like about her.

Kittycat

(10,493 posts)
12. Sorry, I'm not going to take your bait. I'll just put you on ignore.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:19 AM
Apr 2016

But leave you with the parting reminder about how Bill/Hill worked to destroy the safety net for poor women, through welfare "reform".

http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/12/how-bill-clintons-welfare-reform-created-a-system-rife-with-racial-biases/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/christophermassie/hillary-clinton-used-to-talk-about-how-the-people-on-welfare#.bfR7k2YrAn

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/02/the_betrayal_that_should_haunt_hillary_clinton_how_she_sold_out_working_women_then_never_apologized/

As welfare reform shredded the social safety net, other Clinton Administration policies buttressed corporate and Wall Street power. The shift from good-paying manufacturing jobs to horribly compensated cashier work in the service industry accelerated. Wall Street went on to tank the global economy. When the bottom fell out, there was little to catch poor people falling hard to the ground. As Ron Haskins, a Brookings Institution senior fellow who played a key role in welfare reform, put it, “any mom who does not have the ability to maintain her household and work at the same time is going to have trouble.”


And next she will come for the social security safety net. Without question.

And meanwhile, she will continue to plunder the wealth and lands of any country she can invade, or exploit for the sake of 'charity'. She is no champion of women, she is a manipulator of them. Someone who once pushed for single payer, won't even consider the thought now, begging at the trough of her campaign donors. I don't think so. No, the clintons - especially Hillary has always been about herself, and self preservation to the top. The greed and corruption stinks from every footstep, from Bill's scandals - to the foundation collecting huge sums coinciding with her arms deals and government agreements. No thanks, no thanks.
 

Onlooker

(5,636 posts)
14. Funny how the poor women of that generation back Hillary by large numbers
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:31 AM
Apr 2016

But, you know better than them. Tow the line, kittycat, tow the line right into the dustbin of history where Hillary haters will end up when they have no influence left, but that will leave room for the real feminists to assert themselves.

musicblind

(4,484 posts)
17. I did not say every single person would vote for her.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:35 PM
Apr 2016

But I don't think it is accurate to lump all of us Bernie voters together and say that the "Bernie crowd" will not vote for her. Some Bernie supporters won't. I'm sure. Some die hard Hillary supporters refused to vote for Obama. I never understand that; it made no sense to me, but it was there vote and their right...

I do not believe she is Bush Lite. I believe that she is a center left democrat and Bernie is a farther left democrat. Don't believe me? Here look at this chart that I got from CNN who got their data from crowdpac. Crowdpac tracks votes, statements, and money in order to determine political candidates right/left placements.

This chart was done before Iowa or any of that, but it's still a good reference tool.

[img][/img]

Look how far away Hillary is from Jeb Bush. Only Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are to her left. Then look at how far away Hillary, Bernie, and Elizabeth are from the likes of Rubio or Ted Cruz. They are literally on opposite sides of the chart! From an empirical data standpoint, they couldn't be more different.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
2. Bernie will remain in until the convention. No reason not to. He has the money and the supporters.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:26 AM
Apr 2016

if he were to do anything else Hillary and her corporate DNC/ThirdWayers would immediately throw put any promises they made Sanders. He is not a fool, he knows she is not trrustworthy, she flips with the slightest breeze and will say anything and mean nothing.

killbotfactory

(13,566 posts)
6. If Hillary wins we need to organize to stop the next horrific neocon war.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:37 AM
Apr 2016

I'm sure on domestic policy she will be better than the GOP.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
7. Appreciate the effort...But I am not accepting this
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:43 AM
Apr 2016

The Clintons and the brand of Democrat they represent have done serious damage to the liberal spirit of the Democratic Party, and aligned it far too much with Wall Sr. and Corporate monopolies. The corruption of the Democratic Party has gotten far deeper and wider than the good old days when they just accepted Wall St. and business donations. Modern Dems (most) have been purchased outright.

They have made the two-party system into a sham when it comes to issues of wealth and power.

They have proven their contempt for meaningful reform in this primary.

I may pull the lever for her in November if need be -- but that's it. No enthusiasm for her or the Democratic Party. Apathy will win.

angrychair

(8,700 posts)
8. World war III
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:50 AM
Apr 2016

She insists, despite the advice against it from PBO, Pentagon and most foreign policy experts, for a no fly zone in Syria. This will lead us into direct conflict with Russia and a cold war at best or WWIII at worse.
What Do you expect from a person that is good friends and seeks advice from Henry FUCKING Kissinger.

 

That Guy 888

(1,214 posts)
9. Not sure that Bernie could get me to vote for Hillary.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:15 AM
Apr 2016

She herself is the reason I don't want to vote for Clinton. Iraq war, fracking, unquestioning support of Israel, supporting undemocratic coups in south America (no wonder Kissinger likes her), and on, and on. I literally don't know what she could do to win my vote, I have no confidence in her.

Unless the pukes really screw up and Texas comes into play for the Presidential election, I can vote my conscience with no regrets.

LostOne4Ever

(9,289 posts)
13. In the end, a democrat in the White House does more to advance my issues than not.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:20 AM
Apr 2016

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]So I WILL be voting for the democratic nominee.

Whoever wins the nominee, This Millenial/Gen Xer will be voting against the Republicans and for the democrats in every race I can. Just as I did in 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, ect.. I haven't missed a vote yet and have ALWAYS voted against the Republicans.

But, if Bernie wins (and I know that the odds of that happen are probably sub 1% at this point) I will actually be voting FOR a candidate. If Hillary wins, it will be a vote against the republicans not for her.

She just has betrayed the issues I care about too often to trust her.[/font]

tech3149

(4,452 posts)
16. You're post seems to reflect my sentiments
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:57 AM
Apr 2016

I will vote for the nominee but I do not want to support a party that doesn't give me something or someone to vote for. It seems like the last thirty years it's been "vote for X because they're not as bad as Y"
When I see those political elite in the "Democratic" party doing something restore their presence locally, I might cut them some slack.
Problem is there is no structure or visibility for "the party" locally. How many local and state elections have uncontested races? With Republicans being the only one on the ticket?
How often has the "party" kneecapped a truly great candidate because they didn't have name recognition or couldn't raise enough money?
If the party elite want my support, they better learn that investing in the base is much more productive than big money to advertising and consultants for one sorry assed candidate.

frustrated_lefty

(2,774 posts)
15. You lost me in the first sentence.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:43 AM
Apr 2016

Hillary is a Progressive? How in god's name do you not choke forcing those lies out of your mouth?

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