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Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:00 AM Apr 2016

PoliticusUsa: "Democrats Beware: Ideological Purity is Un-Democratic"

There is room for us all. The problem is not the wildly variant views we hold, but those who insist that only they are the real Democrats

Ideological purity – the idea that following only a prescribed set of political doctrines bestows legitimacy – is inherently un-democratic, and Democrats must avoid the trap Republicans fell into when they allowed their own moderates and centrists to go the way of the buffalo.



For years, those on the left have laughed at those on the right as they fell victim to ideological purists (Tea Party politics being a notable example). The advent of Bernie Sanders’ revolution has exposed some of the same cracks, however, on the left. If Republicans castigate Sanders as a communist, Sanders supporters do no less by calling Hillary Clinton a Republican.
...

Perhaps they haven’t thought of the millions of people who will lose their health insurance if any of the Republican candidates win the White House. They say Hillary Clinton is a “corporate shill” or has only Wall Street’s best interest at heart, but Hillary Clinton will not kill Obamacare. Democrats must not let hate get in the way of their common sense.
...

We Democrats are all Democrats. There has always been a spectrum from moderate to extreme and some are socially liberal and some are socially conservative while supporting Democratic economic policies. A political party is a mixed bag and that is how it has always been. We don’t all agree on every point, but that’s why we vote.
...

And that is a problem. A big problem. Either/or arguments, called the “false dilemma” fallacy by philosophers, are fallacious for a reason: there is almost always a third, or even a fourth or fifth choice. Our choices are almost never limited to either/or, black/white, or good/evil.
...

You won’t find those moderate Republicans campaigning for office. Today, these folks are called “RINOs” – Republicans in Name Only. Democrats want to be cautious about applying similar labels to their fellow Democrats.
...

The problem is not the wildly variant views we hold, but those who insist that they, and only they, are the real Democrats, the champions of ideological purity in the party where it can never be allowed to exist.
...

It’s not an easy job, being democratic, but because one party as already given up on the dream of America does not mean we should do the same.


http://www.politicususa.com/2016/04/19/democrats-beware-ideological-purity-un-democratic.html
57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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PoliticusUsa: "Democrats Beware: Ideological Purity is Un-Democratic" (Original Post) Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 OP
Yeah, the irony.. nobody passes their purity tests. Cha Apr 2016 #1
I fear we cannot measure up to such lofty standards. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #2
Nobody can.. especially not their leader. Or themselves. They're not fooling anybody.. Cha Apr 2016 #7
Idiotic OP. This isn't about "purity" it's about resisting the push to the right vintx Apr 2016 #3
Well read... Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #4
And there you go, proving the OP's point. baldguy Apr 2016 #5
Those Dino's in NC prove the point, so does DWS. Kittycat Apr 2016 #10
Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #6
You should delete this insulting post. Marrah_G Apr 2016 #11
I believe the more current term is Sandbaggers? Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #13
This is so typical, you are responding to a nasty now hidden post with even more nastiness. Bluenorthwest Apr 2016 #21
Whether you are willing to admit… CobaltBlue Apr 2016 #38
Party purity is on both sides of the fence this primary season. intheflow Apr 2016 #8
Agreed, there ARE egregious excesses on both sides of the debate. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #14
Abso-freakin-lutely farleftlib Apr 2016 #23
It is a … CobaltBlue Apr 2016 #39
In other words, the Democraty Party is a COALITION. That means working with people KittyWampus Apr 2016 #9
As HRC has known and practiced for her whole political career. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #12
The Big Tent all american girl Apr 2016 #15
Can someone explain how there is room for all of us when Hillary has already pushed a "No we Can't" Baitball Blogger Apr 2016 #16
To effect change in any organization, you must first engage. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #19
To effect change, you first must be heard. Baitball Blogger Apr 2016 #22
If you perceive that your local party leaders are corrupt, then get in there, roll up your sleeves, Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #25
LOL! Populism begins at the local level? Baitball Blogger Apr 2016 #27
I don't sip tea with those who'd send me to die for no reason. VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #17
In a democratic system, unless you are willing at least to speak to your Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #26
I'll speak to 'em, but never with the possibility of my life or limb on the table. VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #29
Just so you know, I personally abhor any kind of violence, war of any description and lax gun laws. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #30
I'm right with you Fresh_Start Apr 2016 #53
"We are all human and imperfect." Maru Kitteh Apr 2016 #57
Sad that this is the most enthusiasm the author can muster. n/t Orsino Apr 2016 #18
Hillary's running as a Democrat and bashing the people she needs to win in November. Arkana Apr 2016 #20
"The problem is ... those who insist that only they are the real Democrats" Dem2 Apr 2016 #24
And, might I add another "Amen" to that? LOL! Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #28
Lol Dem2 Apr 2016 #54
None of this really matters. A political party is for knowing where you....... socialist_n_TN Apr 2016 #31
I think that requires some thought CajunBlazer Apr 2016 #47
LOL. Purity . From those that demand loyalty to one party. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #32
+1 Baitball Blogger Apr 2016 #35
But, if we are not ideologically pure, we might compromise on legislation... Agnosticsherbet Apr 2016 #33
And we're closer to fascism today in 2016 than we ever have been....... socialist_n_TN Apr 2016 #44
Our system was designed form the Constitution up to require compromise. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2016 #45
mmmm hmmm. DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2016 #34
K&R - an excellent read for all of us CajunBlazer Apr 2016 #36
I found it to be an excellent read. A reminder of what the Democratic Party represents. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #41
Well… CobaltBlue Apr 2016 #37
Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #40
This is why Sanders supporters are ignored or mocked. randome Apr 2016 #43
Ah, another screed to Both Siderism TransitJohn Apr 2016 #42
Looking at a question from both points of view can be very helpful. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #46
If you think liberalism is trashing the country like conservatism is. TransitJohn Apr 2016 #48
They make up at least 30% of the US. If you don't talk to them and at least give them a hearing, Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #49
Well, have fun continuing down that Reagan road, dragging the Party and TransitJohn Apr 2016 #50
And, by ignoring them completely, instead of trying to disarm and subdue them through engagement, Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #55
Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #51
Glad you enjoyed reading it. Surya Gayatri Apr 2016 #52
The choice between people vs. the corporations/wall st could not be clearer. I cannot silvershadow Apr 2016 #56
 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
2. I fear we cannot measure up to such lofty standards.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:25 AM
Apr 2016


We are doomed to be forever labelled as heretics under the Sanders Inquisition.

Cha

(297,285 posts)
7. Nobody can.. especially not their leader. Or themselves. They're not fooling anybody..
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:37 AM
Apr 2016

Well, maybe some. lol

 

vintx

(1,748 posts)
3. Idiotic OP. This isn't about "purity" it's about resisting the push to the right
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:27 AM
Apr 2016

that the DLC started and the Turd Way dems are continuing.

All those "but hillary is the most liberal" claims don't mean CRAP when she is in favor of regime change, fracking, "clean coal", etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Kittycat

(10,493 posts)
10. Those Dino's in NC prove the point, so does DWS.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:45 AM
Apr 2016

Look at North Carolina! Prime example. Heck, we even have some in my own state of IL doing stupid shit to either benefit themselves or republican efforts. And look at Payday Debbie. Not only has she supported her Republican over promoting Democrats, she's trying to push Payday Loans for goodness sakes!

So yes, be very, very aware of anyone trying to usurp the label of Democrat by staking claim under the Democratic party's big tent, while enjoying the same protections siding with republicans class values.

Response to Surya Gayatri (Original post)

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
13. I believe the more current term is Sandbaggers?
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:04 AM
Apr 2016

Doctrinaire ideologues do not bring much to the conversation except pronouncements and condemnations.

Calling people "Democratic wh_res" does not tend to foster exchange, much less positive action.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
21. This is so typical, you are responding to a nasty now hidden post with even more nastiness.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:16 AM
Apr 2016

All of this from the folks whose candidate claims Ron and Nancy Reagan were the heroes of the AIDS crisis......

intheflow

(28,476 posts)
8. Party purity is on both sides of the fence this primary season.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:42 AM
Apr 2016

I hear a lot of Clinton supporters talking about how Sanders supporters aren't "real" Democrats. Sounds like a party purity standard to me.

 

farleftlib

(2,125 posts)
23. Abso-freakin-lutely
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:20 AM
Apr 2016

I wish I had a nickel for every time I read on this site how Sanders isn't a real Democrat, even though he caucused with them his entire career. They have no room to talk at Camp Weathervane.

 

CobaltBlue

(1,122 posts)
39. It is a …
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:23 AM
Apr 2016
I hear a lot of Clinton supporters talking about how Sanders supporters aren't "real" Democrats. Sounds like a party purity standard to me.


It's a head game.

Think of the two parties like being in an abusive household.

Daddy takes care of the physical.

Mommy takes care of the psychological.

Daddy is the Republican Party.

Mommy is the Democratic Party.

People have to decide for themselves.

I'm an independent who feels no requirement to have to choose between the two. And 2016 has been a great year with exposing the corruption of how this Democratic Party operates. It was long overdue. And so, too, all those Hillary voters who claimed, during the 2000s, that they were angry over the war in Iraq.
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
9. In other words, the Democraty Party is a COALITION. That means working with people
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:45 AM
Apr 2016

you might not fully agree with regarding strategies/goals.

It means patience.

It means hard work.

It means embracing other people, listening to their voices validating their concerns.

Baitball Blogger

(46,732 posts)
16. Can someone explain how there is room for all of us when Hillary has already pushed a "No we Can't"
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:08 AM
Apr 2016

policy to changes in a corrupt process?

How do you think neo-liberals get things done? All the decisions are made at the leadership position where individuals are induced, and the people they represent get screwed over and over again.

The big tent concept no longer exists.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
19. To effect change in any organization, you must first engage.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:11 AM
Apr 2016

Declaring your "Independence" from that organization, and then standing outside the halls of power screaming that you have no voice, is truly self-defeating.

Baitball Blogger

(46,732 posts)
22. To effect change, you first must be heard.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:17 AM
Apr 2016

And when someone dismisses your p.o.v. because you don't fit into their square pegs, you get disenfranchised.

What you are saying is that there are only two parties, and if you don't work within their system, you don't exist. But what happens if the local party leaders are corrupt? And the national level leader encourages the way they induce each other to separate their interests from the interests of the people they are supposed to represent? All this for the appearance of facilitating decisions to make it look like they are getting things done?

Here's a question for you. What happens when there are more independents in this country than there are Republicans and Democrats combined? At what point do you begin to realize that we are very stuck in a primary process that co-opts the will of the people and is no longer representing the interests of the majority?

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
25. If you perceive that your local party leaders are corrupt, then get in there, roll up your sleeves,
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:23 AM
Apr 2016

and do some mano à mano arm wrestling to wrench power away from them. Populism begins at the local level.

Baitball Blogger

(46,732 posts)
27. LOL! Populism begins at the local level?
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:27 AM
Apr 2016

Can you seriously not see what you're saying? Bernie is the example of populism. If he can't succeed with some mano a mano wrestling to wrench power away from the established DNC, what chance does one person have to fight the same gamed system at the local level? If you don't have your own cash flow, you can't attract people who are very much afraid to disrupt a system that can get them blackballed and harm their financial well-being.

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
17. I don't sip tea with those who'd send me to die for no reason.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:10 AM
Apr 2016

If that's somehow "ideological purity", wow, y'all people mangle a lot more of the dictionary than I expected.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
26. In a democratic system, unless you are willing at least to speak to your
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:26 AM
Apr 2016

adversaries, and yes, even break bread with them on occasion, you will never be able to advance your agenda one jot.

Ideological purity does not get you what you want.

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
29. I'll speak to 'em, but never with the possibility of my life or limb on the table.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:27 AM
Apr 2016

And you sound a lot like another one of those types who would send us to die, without any skin in the game yourself, frankly.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
30. Just so you know, I personally abhor any kind of violence, war of any description and lax gun laws.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:31 AM
Apr 2016

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
53. I'm right with you
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:36 PM
Apr 2016

I'm unwilling to condemn other people who have different points of view.
My father in law is very much a lifelong liberal.
Nonetheless he supported the war in Iraq.

I supported neither Afghanistan nor Iraq.
Both wars inflicted great harm on many many innocent people most of which were women and children.

He isn't a demon because his opinion was to support that war.
He is just a human being who made an emotional decision...as indeed my decision was also emotional.

We are not robots...even the most logical of us are prone to emotional decision making.

We are all human and imperfect.

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
20. Hillary's running as a Democrat and bashing the people she needs to win in November.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:14 AM
Apr 2016

Her husband compared Bernie supporters to Tea Partiers and suggested we want to shoot people on Wall Street.

Gee, I can't imagine why Bernie's supporters might feel ostracized, can you? Seems like Clinton's campaign has no reason for existing. She seems to be for winning and against someone else winning. That's the only bedrock principle I can detect.

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
24. "The problem is ... those who insist that only they are the real Democrats"
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:20 AM
Apr 2016
The problem is not the wildly variant views we hold, but those who insist that only they are the real Democrats



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socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
31. None of this really matters. A political party is for knowing where you.......
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:32 AM
Apr 2016

as an individual stand on the political spectrum. If you disagree with the party line on too many issues, you don't belong in that party. I think that a lot of people who are on the left doesn't feel like the Democratic Party represents them anymore. Same on the right of the spectrum to an extent, but moreso on the left IMO. Because a right leaning Dem has a further right party option in the Republican party, but a left leaning Dem has no other option.

So what do you do in that case? Hence the rise of the independent self-identification. But those left leaning independents who disagree with too many of the positions of current day Democrats will find another option eventually. Whether it's the Greens or a workers' party, it will happen.

CajunBlazer

(5,648 posts)
47. I think that requires some thought
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:58 PM
Apr 2016

Options:

I guess that you could sit on your hands and not vote in coming general election.

The Green Party is certainly not going to win and offers a totally unqualified candidate who has run nothing bigger than her medical practice and knows nothing about how to be president except what she has learned as one of 22 Town Meeting Representatives in her town of 34K.

The Republican Party will likely offer erratic and totally unpredictable Donald Trump who has promised to abolish Obamacare and deport 11 million people and heavens knows what else or Ted Cruz who would be by far the most conservative person ever to be POTUS. Both have promised to ensure that the Supreme Court is ruled by ultra conservatives for the next 20 years.

The Democratic Party will in all likelihood nominate Hillary Clinton who is who certainly doesn't appear to be a good fit for you, but is much more aligned to your politics than the likely Republican candidates. She would also probably ensure that the Supreme Court became much more progressive for the next 20 years. She would likely take only incremental progressive steps towards a more progress system, but that might be better than moving drastically backward.

Those four options appear to be your choices. Only you an determine which course is best for you you take.

I know that there is much concern about remaining true to progressive values, but isn't the most important progressive value that of ensuring that the less fortunate among us who are least able to defend themselves share in the prosperity of our country? How does one remain true to this most important progressive value doing nothing and making it more likely that Republicans will take over all three branches of our government.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
33. But, if we are not ideologically pure, we might compromise on legislation...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:50 AM
Apr 2016

That is the greased, slippery slope to fascism.
(it should not be necessary, but...)

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
44. And we're closer to fascism today in 2016 than we ever have been.......
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:07 PM
Apr 2016

That's a consequence of NOT being "ideologically pure" or at least standing ground on principles and of having to "compromise on legislation". The "lesser of two evils" argument has left a growing number of citizens without representation and brought us a probable choice in November between a neo-conservative, social moderate in Clinton and a proto-fascist opportunist in Trump. And the government in the country lurches further to the right, while the people are moving left. What's next in 2020? A socially moderate fascist and a classic fascist? That's the trend line of the "lesser of two evils"

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
45. Our system was designed form the Constitution up to require compromise.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:11 PM
Apr 2016

It is ideological purity, as is most often practiced by Republicans, that have brought us close to a failed state.

 

CobaltBlue

(1,122 posts)
37. Well…
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:18 AM
Apr 2016

The author writes,

We Democrats are all Democrats. There has always been a spectrum from moderate to extreme and some are socially liberal and some are socially conservative while supporting Democratic economic policies. A political party is a mixed bag and that is how it has always been. We don’t all agree on every point, but that’s why we vote.


I'm not a "Democrat."

I'm an independent.

That author writes in cult-speak.

It's sick.

Response to Surya Gayatri (Original post)

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
43. This is why Sanders supporters are ignored or mocked.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:38 AM
Apr 2016

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
49. They make up at least 30% of the US. If you don't talk to them and at least give them a hearing,
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:09 PM
Apr 2016

they go off and wreak havoc in the shadows.

They may be RW nuts, but they're OUR RW nuts, and you totally ignore them at your risk and peril.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
55. And, by ignoring them completely, instead of trying to disarm and subdue them through engagement,
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:03 PM
Apr 2016

you can enjoy decades more of deadlock and paralysis.

That's worked SO well thus far.

Response to Surya Gayatri (Original post)

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
56. The choice between people vs. the corporations/wall st could not be clearer. I cannot
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:36 PM
Apr 2016

vote for one side, under any circumstances, even triangulation.

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