2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumFood for thought; what if "the base" isn't what you think it is?
Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:37 AM - Edit history (1)
There's a common catcall around here that Clinton is out of touch with the progressive base, i.e all those people that prefer Bernie. But what if the party is shifting along with the demographics of much of the nation? The US is bit by bit becoming less- dominated by white, Christian males; Trump is having a field day capitalizing on that fear. So what if the more important base of the party starts to become people like this;
and this
and this
and not so much this;
![](du4img/smicon-reply-new.gif)
griffi94
(3,733 posts)With respect to Bernie and his supporters They don't represent the majority
of everyday Democrats.
They're the cutting edge progressives.
The base is exactly who
has put Hillary so far in the lead.
POC, women, blue collar families, moderate Indies who are disgusted by what the GOP has turned into.
Like the the Times piece said.
Her coalition is broad and durable.
That's the base of the Democratic Party.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The democrat only New York primary proved that beyond a doubt!
griffi94
(3,733 posts)where she won a majority of Democrats.
The Indies have kept Bernie in the race this long.
Now that most of the open primary staes have voted he'll continue to lose ground.
merrily
(45,251 posts)you have listed. All those groups are well represented in Bernie's constituency, but the younger members of those groups.
The meme that all women are voting for Hillary is especially incorrect. Millions and millions of women support Bernie and I am proud to be one of them.
Most, but not all, of Bernie's supporters are the future.
griffi94
(3,733 posts)Of course no group is monolithic.
My 2 millinial daughters voted Bernie.
They'll vote Hillary in November.
Yes Bernies supporters are the future but I tend to doubt they'll still
vote the same as they age.
No generation has.
Hopefully they will be more progressive than the last generation and pull our entire society
to the left.
But I don't belive the revolution will keep going.
They never seem to.
The revolutionaries of the 60 largely became the Reaganites of the 80s.
Youth has always been the future but when you age out of youth then your priorities change.
Family, jobs, children, a rewarding life (whatever that means to the individual).
Thanks for your comment.
merrily
(45,251 posts)They did the same with Nixon and Dimson Bush.
Sixties liberals, on the other hand, demonstrated against the Iraq War, just as they demonstrated against the Vietnam War.
As for what will last and what won't time will tell.
As far as who a majority of women or people of color voted for, that does not contradict what I said about age being the sharpest dividing line, not sex or color or any other factor.
griffi94
(3,733 posts)Again no group is monolithic.
A lot of 60s liberals did protest Iraq.
I attended 2 protests here in Austin.
I'm a generation after the 60s liberals.
I've known more than a lot of them that went from being liberal hippies to
voting for tax cuts.
The ones I've known stayed liberal on social issues and civil rights issues.
Mostly they didn't become T-Baggers. Just more cautious and conservative about economics
and sometimes enviro issues if they work for in the oil industry.
I grew up in a small town in southeast Texas. My youngest uncle was the towns first real hippie
he became a hippie after his Vietnam tour.while he was hanging around southern California. That would have 69-70
Today he's a T-Bagger.
I don't see him much.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Democrats for any other Republican is patently untrue, no matter what two or three examples you give anecdotally.
Also the "revolution" of the Fifities and Sixties accomplished a LOT. America is nothing like it was in 1955. If you think people who changed it were the ones sitting home watching I Love Lucy and tsk tsking over demonstrators and "draft dodgers: would have changed zip without the "revolutionaries" (misnomer) that, too, would be a big mistake.
griffi94
(3,733 posts)The 60s revolution is still going strong.
Deadhead stickers on Cadillacs
The country lunged to the right in Reagan 49 state sweep
Even MA NY CA IL.
Even Liberal Democratic states went for Reagan.
Have a good day.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and, I might add, becoming at least more conservative in the process. Social scientists know that parenthood causes a fairly reliable seismic shift toward being at least more conservative. Not surprising when you realize that a stronger disposition to fear/anxiety is a major characteristic of conservatives. Calls for "revolution" may not be as appealing to parents as they once were.
And, of course, it's very common for kids who thought they were leftist to have an "epiphany" and end up solidly somewhere on the right. This is actually quite common among left-wing radicals who make the rather short shift to right-wing reactionary, and vice versa.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Foreign ideas these days are notions such as Corporate Power needs to be brought under control, Wall St. Greed and Immorality need to be directly confronted.....Trade policies should be oriented to FAIR TRADE negotiated democratically rather than behind closed doors by the oligarchs....etc.
Regarding "social" issues, the vast majority of Sanders supporters are jusrt as progressive -- often more so -- than Cinton supporters. Claims to the opposite is just slick campaign marketing.
randome
(34,845 posts)There must be a reason other than they are all 'damaged' in some way.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
Armstead
(47,803 posts)To be honest, neither intellectually or emotionally can I fathom why anyone who is remotely liberal on most issues could support her or believe she represents their interests more than Sanders.
But the objective side of my nature can see the various reasons why people would support to her.
randome
(34,845 posts)But we're headed for a Clinton presidency so we may as well make the most of it, I think.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
Armstead
(47,803 posts)"Do not go gentle into that good night...."
But I'll probably slip into a blissfully apathetic state for a while once the primaries are over.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)That is definitely true. The party is more progressive than the Republican Party. The party has moved to the right, and it needs to move back left. I hope Bernie's popularity helps with that - more progressive candidates should feel more confident in running for office after that. But IMO another way to move the party to the left is to have big wins over Republicans. It looks like HIllary will get the nomination at that point, so in the general that's where my vote will go. The easier it is for Democrats to win, the more we'll see progressive candidates going for it. The harder it is for Democrats to win, the more we'll see the party move to the center.
griffi94
(3,733 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Because we are adults who understand pragmatism and can filter out the bullshit flung at her by Republicans and the Leftwing version of Tea Baggers.
She may not have been my first choice or even an ideal choice, but she's an excellent Democratic candidate who will help the country progress in the right direction.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)you aren't an adult or interested in democracy as a form of government if you insist on Ideological purity.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Stop with the nonsense. Let's talk about policy.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)"You're either with us or with the terrorists", "You don't support the War on Terror? Why do you hate freedom?" and all those lovely buzzphrases.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)all american girl
(1,788 posts)and is bullying, in my opinion.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)![](/emoticons/chuckle.gif)
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If Hillary is the President expect,,, the TPP passed as new and better! Expect fracking to expand unchecked. Expect no meaningful banking reforms. Expect citizens united to exist unchallenged. Expect escalation of wars and escalation of refugee crisis. Expect continual impeachment proceedings or scandals made up or otherwise. Expect your social security privatized and more cuts to medicare medicade. All this will be blamed on the republicans who you can expect will widen their margins in Congress.
Buy hey, she's clearly the pragmatic choice.
Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #2)
Post removed
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Excellent work.
brush
(53,787 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)![](/emoticons/patriot.gif)
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:25 AM - Edit history (1)
white guys.
And for some reason, when I talk to people as I go out and about, I am finding that people who are supposed to be Clinton's base are for Bernie. Go figure.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)...but the Democratic party will fracture under the weight of its own identity politics.
No one in this party is talking about equality anymore. Now it's all about dividing the population along racial and gender lines and then pitting one group against another. The end game of that dysfunction and chaos. It won't bring any social justice at all.
You don't have the numbers to win a general election without Democratic white men. You continue down this track, you'll lose the white working class. You will lose the union workers. And when that happens, kiss the swing states good-bye.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for a while in our Democratic party. Yea. You lose.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Your reply is exactly what I am talking about.
You have an "us vs them" mentality. It's going to fracture the party.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)As a matter of fact you think it simply how it should be, privilege and all. But you know, women or minority tries to stand up to it, .... and ya, "us vs them".
We are good if we allow your privilege. If we do not... then better watch out.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)The only people in this country who are "privileged" are the rich and the elitists....many of whom are running the Democratic party today.
Hillary is the queen of privilege. She's never had to fight for anything in her life. She didn't even know how to use the turnstile at the subway. Her life is full of million+ dollar homes, private jets, and having people drive her around for most of her life. When was the last time she drove a car? Her jobs have been a cakewalk and given to her. As first lady, she and her feminist supporters turned their backs on every woman Bill groped and harassed. In the Senate, she didn't write one piece of legislation. And as secretary of state, Libya fell apart, Syria fell apart, and our "reset" with Russia went down the tubes. And I've not even touched on the scandals and corruption and secret speeches to Wall Street insiders we are not allowed to hear.
Yet you want to talk to me about how I'm "privileged?" LMAO!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lol, all the while.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)No answer to her real problems.
Good luck winning the general election...you're going to need it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... temper tantrum and then some introspection and the ones who really are progressives will get on board with the rest of what America is going to be
Recursion
(56,582 posts)![](/emoticons/facepalm.gif)
I wish I could say this post surprised me
Recursion
(56,582 posts)![](/emoticons/banghead.gif)
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You cannot be that stupid and avoid getting run over crossing the street.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... there's nothing wrong or false with this post.
People have noticed this for years that white women and women of color are now the power a true power base in the DNC
The ones who haven't noticed are not taking it well, but its been there for years
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Fuck no I ain't voting for Trump. Nor am I voting for Hillary. Im looking 3rd party at this point. Or just won't vote at all in the Presidential race. But I refuse to be guilt-trapped into voting for a corrupt politician. Won't happen. I see no difference between her and and the neocons.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... accurate.
The only people who have a problem with this OP are the ones who are having a temper tantrum about ceding power in the DNC...
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)I don't see how an OP like this brings unity. I don't see how it will bring anyone together. I don't see how it will bring any equality. All it does is bring a shitstorm with everyone accusing each other of racism and sexism and insulting the issues each person views as important. It is identity politics. It accomplishes nothing.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)... and the path Obama took to win.
There's no one accusing anyone of either of the isms just that the power structure in the DNC has changed and it do so long ago.
The DNC establishment doesn't notice this but HRC camp did cause they were in the 2008 election and saw Obama's path to victory, they did little different and are being succesful from the start.
Sanders from the start had someone who called Obama niggerized stump for him in IA and NH, what the hell was that!?
The biggest tell tale that his advisers didn't notice the power shift.
It accomplishes a lot to let people know where the power has shifted in the party.... facts are progressive IMHO
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)Too painful!
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)You drive people away. Is that really what you want?
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)causing untold death and suffering
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Hadn't thought of that before.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)![](/emoticons/eyes.gif)
Tarc
(10,476 posts)To show some once-marginalized voices in American society that ar now turning out to vote for Hillary in drives.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)women, etc?
Tarc
(10,476 posts)More (far more) women support Hillary.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)They could be Jewish, LGBT, recent immigrants, or anything, really.
Why are you assuming they're a bunch of frat bros?
Also, is Bernie himself a white, Christian male?
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Because they already have them, aka "the other eleven months". ( to Chris Rock)
In the same vein, I don't think white males need protection from stereotyping.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Tarc
(10,476 posts)Yep, may as well throw HA Goodman in there too.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)who go to the polls every election and vote for Democrats. That has always been the base of the party. Those who only vote for Democrats when they strongly support a particular candidate are NOT the base of the party, and never have been.
Those who register as Independents or who won't declare a party affiliation are NOT the base of the Democratic Party, either, and never have been.
Those who threaten not to vote for the party's nominee are definitely NOT the base of the Democratic Party. They are something else altogether, and aren't a unified voting bloc at all.
The base of the party consists only of those who are reliable voters for Democratic candidates. The rest are not the base. They never have been the base.
That's my opinion, of course.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)People still have a voice, thank goodness, but the money really needs to be banned.
Get the money out of the way, because only then will we have the faintest idea who the base really is.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)The GOP and Big Money Oligarchs have been making hay out of dividing and segmenting Americans for decades.
People are going to have differing perspectives on specific issues, but we ALL need decent jobs and oppotunities, access to affordable healthcare, access to housing, education...etc. We also need to band together to bring more power to the 90 Percent, and stop allowing ourselves to be bullied by Big Money and Big Power.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)African-Americans rejected it.
Latinos rejected it.
Women rejected it.
GLBT voters (based on NYC returns) rejected it.
Jewish voters rejected it.
The party does not define the base, the base defines the party.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)RCP Average 3/28 - 4/14 -- -- 47.7 Clinton 46.3 Sanders
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)65-35 rejected by Jews.
Actual votes, not polls. In New York. In Florida. In Texas. In Ohio. In Virginia.
Amazingly, members of oppressed minorities don't buy into the "one size fits all" theory as much as those who belong to the privileged group.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Sure there are a lot of AA's who like the Clintons. But I prefer to thuink of people as individuals rather than "demographic units" and if Sanders had more time to let them get to know him and his agenda, I'm sure he could continue to cut into that more.
The Jewish vote. Bernie committed the cardinal sin of not pandering to AIPAC and pointing out that Palestinians are people too.
edbermac
(15,941 posts)On Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:55 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Her base consists of sheep and those with Stockholm Syndrome
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1789433
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Offensive OTT insults at Clinton supporters. Sheep and Stockholm Syndrome. Most Sanders supporters accept the S.S. is offensive.
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