[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

Hillary zealots hellbent on making the tent smaller...

In case you hadn't noticed, there are stupid things said by stupid people on both sides of this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

That was your words, not mine...


I have yet to find any Hillary supporter get serious about track records, experience or policies. I hjave yet to find anyone come with a remotely rational and logical explenation for voting for Hillary unless he or she is a part of the elite and want to protect their privileges.

Hell, she isn't perfect by a long stretch but she is a Progressive, despite how much or how often her detractors think otherwise.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

obnoxious.

Nope.

Left-leaners will stay home if she is the nominee.

for her in other primaries. They are not one monolithic mass.

This is only the most recent in a very long unbroken string of polls showing that Bernie is far stronger in the GE:

Monday, April 18
Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
General Election: Trump vs. Clinton NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl Clinton 50, Trump 39 Clinton +11
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl Clinton 46, Cruz 44 Clinton +2
General Election: Kasich vs. Clinton NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl Kasich 51, Clinton 39 Kasich +12
General Election: Cruz vs. Sanders NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl Sanders 52, Cruz 40 Sanders +12

Thursday, April 14
Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
General Election: Trump vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 48, Trump 41 Clinton +7
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 45, Cruz 44 Clinton +1
General Election: Kasich vs. Clinton FOX News Kasich 49, Clinton 40 Kasich +9
General Election: Trump vs. Sanders FOX News Sanders 53, Trump 39 Sanders +14
General Election: Cruz vs. Sanders FOX News Sanders 51, Cruz 39 Sanders +12
General Election: Kasich vs. Sanders FOX News Sanders 47, Kasich 43 Sanders +4
General Election: Trump vs. Clinton CBS News Clinton 50, Trump 40 Clinton +10
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton CBS News Clinton 45, Cruz 42 Clinton +3
General Election: Kasich vs. Clinton CBS News Kasich 47, Clinton 41 Kasich +6
General Election: Trump vs. Sanders CBS News Sanders 53, Trump 36 Sanders +17
General Election: Cruz vs. Sanders CBS News Sanders 50, Cruz 38 Sanders +12
General Election: Kasich vs. Sanders CBS News Sanders 46, Kasich 41 Sanders +5

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/

Given the results in closed primaries versus open primaries, and the GE polls, it's pretty clear the delta is due to independents.

At some point in time.

You would have to be kidding yourself if you think one party, throughout time, wins every presidential election cycle.

However this terrible campaign season the DNC has purposely stopped the independent vote that would have came over to our side, and is now threatening the Democrats who are actually liberal, remaining in the party.

This election has been all out suppression of anyone young, first time, independent, voting the same day, etc. And, incredibly hostile to anyone not supporting the bought out corporate war hawk.

Bernie would have unified all of us. Choosing the corporate war hawk ISN'T working out for us and WON'T unify us because most of us real liberals, as well as the left leaning independent are left because we're against bought out candidates and war. Enunciation intended.

As long as Loyd Blankfein gets his freeride with Hillary piggybacking, it doesn't matter about voter suppression based on ethnicity or party affiliation.
As long as the rich get their tax cuts and they can have money in politics, they are more than happy to throw PoC, immigrants and LGBT people under the bus.

The evidence for their disregard for people is their hatred and smear campaigns against Bernie first, and then they went after his supporters, repeating their racist smears against Obama in 2008. They don't care about youngsters, trhe future, the indys.
They only care about minorities when they can get their vote.

And now they act deaf and dumb...

My response to you was snotty as I misunderstood what you were saying.

I thought you were saying, "It's not my concern what independents think; independents be damned!" I agree with what you actually said, not what I thought you said!

She has virtually zero support among registered Independents, and she is despised in the ranks of the GOP. She will lose the GE.

many outright hate HRC. Trump represents something different that many see, but likely the end result will be disastrous.

I've run across a lot of people that say they will vote for Trump, because they are fed up with the US and something really major has to change.

2016 is really a very concerning and frightening election. I still don't think the DNC/DWS/DLC/HRC get what is going on with the mood in this country.

Primaries are one thing, but GE is a totally different ballgame. And what is really troubling is if the R's place more RW'ers on SCOTUS.

And Trump is already switching his rhetoric to more moderate after the NY win, what I've been predicting for a long time.

Her actions this campaign gave pretty much cemented that.

They think she's home free in the GE. Not. A. Prayer. without the Indie vote as well.

But they think they know it all this morning................

absolutely will not vote for her.

What I've come up with includes:

a. be afraid of the GOP nominee

b. first female president

c. continuing Obama

If that's enough, she'll win. Is there something else she's proposing to GOTV? What have I missed that will actually resonate across the country? Hope and change has been done already.

It sounds good doesn't it?

Especially after the last 8 years of reaching out and getting your hand slapped away with great joy and abandon? So, no, it doesn't sound good, nor remotely realistic.

to illegally and unethically spill foreign blood in wars that are coyly referred to as "conflicts" and "interventions" and clearly aren't fights in defense of the Constitution that we swore to defend; and rather, just corporate interests.

Not the best plan, imo.

For a lot of us, the military's really the only family we have left, right?

It'll take a lot of self control to not turn my covers into casual outing caps when I'm out, I'll tell you that much.

...I don't wear my hair that short.

...What I wouldn't give to be able to say that some days. Take it easy, Top, the hard days are coming.

I mean who would wear dungarees around town. Our work clothes in the Navy looked like prison uniforms.

how exactly is he any different?

What other two are you talking about? Cause I've DEFINITELY not seen the voting record you're thinking of.

He voted for Senate J Res 45 to use military force in Somalia.
He voted for HR4655 Iraqi Liberation act 1998 to use military to remove S Hussein from power.
He voted for military force in Libya.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/dec/22/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-bernie-sanders-voted-get-rid-/

Voted numerous times to aid Israel's military. For example, in 1998 he voted for HR 2159 Foreign Operations Appropriations bill which included $3B in aid for Israel military assistance.

The republicans despise her worse than president Obama

about Savchenko. Prisoner swap I believe.

It's going to be ugly identity politics and fear fear fear

I think it kind of is a big fucking deal having the first female president. It's exciting. Hey, we are moving into the 21st Century!!! Continuing and improving on what Obama has done...again, I'm with it. And, yeah, I'm afraid of Trump and Cruz.

gives a shit. And she will probably succeed in that as Trump or Cruz would be much worse.

If they want a voice in the election they should just become Democrats.

It must be true, I read it right here on DU.

Not think of themselves as special snowflakes who can vote in other parties' primaries.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

Bank it.

will be voting in the general election?

actually be viable enuf to go up against the entrenched two party system in this country.

Yeah, right.

Ain't going to happen any time soon.

We need to have open primaries.

If Clinton gets the nod, she can win the GE without a single vote from a Sanders supporter.

The war in Iraq was OK, because Clinton explained her vote, so forget about the war dead.

There's plenty more.

As for the Iraq Resolution, that did not take us to war. And most everyone in Congress voted in favor of it. That's not to say it was a 'righteous' vote, it was definitely a political vote. But trying to conflate that vote with what Bush, Jr. did is disingenuous.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

and anyone who voted for it knew it. Put all the lipstick on that pig that you can: Calling it a "political" vote pisses on several thousand American graves and idiotically shrugs at the damage still being dealt with.

"Disingenuous" my ass. She probably had a good chuckle with the boys at Halliburton over it. Hadda build up that defense cred in anticipation of a White House run, y'know.

Clinton voting against the Iraq Resolution would not have affected a thing since there were too many others who were going to vote in favor. 58% of Democrats voted in favor, including John Kerry, Max Cleland, Harry Reid and John Edwards. Do you think they all had a 'good chuckle' along with Clinton?

This is what politicians do: they avoid being on the losing side of a vote whenever possible. It's not how things should be but it is how things are.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

Congratulations on a penetrating moral observation. Not impressed.

I don't care if 100 fucking percent of Democrats voted in favor of it. That's the sort of argument your average eight-year-old concocts--but they were doing it, too!!

Anyone who denies that her "yea" vote was with an eye toward a White House run needs a looking at. And yes, that goes for Kerry, too. Wouldn't want to look weak by doing the right thing now, would we? Oh wait...

Being mad because more voters are voting for Clinton instead of Sanders ignores reality. Expecting Sanders to somehow transform the country with nothing but 'goodness' is a little naive, imo.

He has good ideas and a good heart. But he's failed to make connections in Congress in order to get things done. He has fewer Senate endorsements than Ted Cruz. That's not the kind of candidate who can lead a 'revolution'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

I suppose you'd expect a revolution to stem from a shitload of establishment endorsements? You haven't been thinking straight this whole while, but that's a whole 'nother level of dumb.

https://www.congress.gov/member/bernard-sanders/S000033



Politics has always been this way. Don't expect much. People will lose loved ones for no other reason than political expediency.

That seems to be your philosophy in a nutshell.

I really pity you.

I got scared for a minute, thought you were serious until I saw your Bernie avatar!

..isn't much of a winning strategy.

Democrats are a minority, as are republicans!

Party ID changes radically in General Election years

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/party-identification

nm

are the R presidential candidates, they are so horrific, many R's jump the ship!!!

And when exactly did she "attack" independents?

Oh right ... if you don't support Bernie, you've attacked him, his supporters, independents ... and everyone else.

And we all know what happens in elections where the turnout is low.

And i am leaning that way as my state is already decided for the general

As they despise Clinton more.

the Republican establishment doesn't give a fuck either way. Win win for them. Impeachment will be for show, and won't be initiated (in either case) until they can squeeze out another war.

Anyone who honestly thinks the Koch Brothers and their ilk give a rat's ass about the Supreme Court needs to think again.

I guess it was a good thing two of his soldiers were actually captured in Ukraine.

nm

Slowly the liberal-minded part of the country will see that she is a better option than Trump. Particularly since he seems to be trying to become a main stream repub. Besides, who knows what the next few months hold. Things change in ways that are totally unpredictable.

Not everyone is a Bernie or Bust voter, by any means. She'll also win with the help of many, many moderate Republicans voting for her. Those will make the choice not to vote for the bully who is Donald Trump or the bully who is Ted Cruz.

I know that many people would rather that Republicans not vote for the Democratic nominee, but they will vote, and in large numbers. That is the dilemma the Republicans have, and they know it. The Republican Party is well aware that neither Trump nor Cruz can generate enough votes to win in November. They know that intimately and it scares the Hell out of them.

Hillary will win. Most independents will opt to go ahead and vote for her as the better choice, even if they don't particularly care for her. Many Republicans and all Democrats will vote for her.

Here's my prediction: There will be a landslide victory for Hillary Clinton in November that will bring states into her camp that haven't voted for a Democratic President in years. Texas, Georgia, and several others will swing that way, much to people's surprise and shock.

Even my 91-year-old parents, who have voted for Republicans in the past several presidential elections, have told me that they will vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016, simply because Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are so abhorrent to them. They ALWAYS vote. So, there are two votes for Clinton you can count on. They are still able to go to the polling place and will do so.

Those voters who simply refuse to vote or who write in someone or cast a useless vote for a third party won't really matter in November. They'll make up maybe 1% of the total vote. They won't count at all.

I happen to be registered as an independent/unaffiliated voter, and I'm not seeing it.

Some help please...

Smile. The state of New York has a system and people should have known. There has been a lot of chat. But basically a lot of people were not allowed to vote because of their registration or did not bother to change their registration. And they are going to vote in the GE. Where I live the independents are greater in number than any others. They (soon to be we) are not all the same. I have no answer to your question. A lot Dems that I know will not vote for her. Gonna be messy! Maybe the VP pick will help. I hope so.

Hillary and Debbie will have a meeting in an underground parking garage somewhere, both in wigs, dark glasses and trench coats. Debbie will tell Hillary that her connections in the loan shark industry know some foreign hackers who can crack the secured voter databases in all 50 states and DC. For a small fee, those hackers will purge every registered independent in all of those databases. Hillary says do it. All she needs is the name of the Nigerian prince so C & G (Clooney and Goldman) can wire the payment because it is not coming from her account.

those that lean Dem will vote for Hillary. Those that lean Republican will vote Trump. A tiny fraction in the middle will pout.

People who participate don't care which party runs the government, so that is not a problem.

She will win.

Why would anyone other than fascist Nazi oligarchs support Trump over Clinton?

Tricky Dick was sent packing and his guardian/protector Ford lost but instead we have been not only treated to ever downward spiraling dumpster fires with our couple of guys chasing them to the right.

Now look at us, we have a TeaPubliKlan party so nuts that the likes of Junior Bush and Saint Ronnie of Rayguns are too liberal to even be in much less run and a Democratic party that if they dropped the Southern Strategy and woman hating shit that would be happy to have either (hell, the likes of rupugnant Rahm and dumbass Debbie would be out actively recruiting) them in the "big tent".

The mere fact that either loathsome scum can get on a national ballot should at least serve as some form of warning that common sense may not be that common.
Even if Reagan and a couple passes at a Bush winning, a congress full of nutters, and state houses in disarray from sea to polluted sea aren't quite enough to cement the idea firmly in one's head.

rumors of Clinton dirty tricks after each primary or caucus that he's lost.
Usually this is followed by threats of voting for Trump or a third party candidate, I can only guess that they feel that it gives them some sort of power or to try and feel superior.

I am an Independent voting for Hillary come November. I have never supported Sanders and not due to his ideology because I agree with it 100%. He simply wasn't prepared to run for president and his plans aren't thoroughly thought out whereas Hillary ran an organized campaign , and being well organized is a virtue that is necessary to be a good president. Their ideology nearly identical.

Embellishments about a sniper in Bosnia are as important to me as "global warming caused terrorism". Stupid lies from candidates a a loss for words , or whatever. I dont care. Most of the negative claims about her are unfounded and/or unproven.

She burns her bridges behind her by napalming the countryside.

She counts on the threat of greater fuckery to justify her fuckery. Remember DOMA?

and it worked out pretty well. It mollified just enough people that there was no longer any chance of there being enough support for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, giving American time to catch up to modern ideals.

There was never an amendment proposed, written up, or submitted in any state. State laws were written, and found to be unconstitutional in federal and state courts. Amendments were talked about. Bluster was displayed.
Nothing was ever proposed by anyone.

The very popular ERA, which was supported by well over 51% on the population hasn't passed as an amendment in 30+ years.

...me living on Oklahoma at the time made things look darker than they were. Every time they busted gay people having sex in parks they published their names in the newspaper; and that's pretty fucked up.

She will work to garner independent votes. She will get a good lot of independents on the left. She will not get the Paul contingent currently supporting Sanders nor does she want them.

How will she get them:

By continuing to talk about income inequality.

By continuing to talk about social justice.

By continuing to talk about the world we face in an intelligent manner.

By continuing to talk about the need for additional regulation in financial sectors and beyond.

By continuing to talk about the need for action with respect to climate change.

By continuing to point out how abusive and destructive conservative policies are and have been.

By continuing to talk about the need to get all citizens access to affordable healthcare.

The list goes on.

The fight has just started.

We are not at an end point.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

As for why Indy's might vote for Trump well a whole bunch have already supported him, others like my son feel that the system is rigged and it is a time to changes things up. Trump will play the "free trade" card and call out Hillary on her trustworthiness.... For those who think this fall will be a cakewalk good luck. This Idea that Hillary is the only true Democrat and independents will have no choice but to go with Hillary is only burning bridges. Bernie has brought back the working people who Regain took away from the Democratic party and the trashing of them because they have not become party members last Oct. is just short sighted. Now is the time to reach out not trash 43% of the electorate.

And I agree about not burning bridges and the party being more inclusive. But it's a Democratic Party, not an Independent Party. Sanders came bulldozing in after spending decades telling the DNC how stupid and corrupt it is and that's sure as hell no way to win adherents, either.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

Is it not in the best interest of the party to use these primaries to increase the size of the party instead of doing republican style purges of voters.

So far as I know, there is same day registration for voters who have not previously joined a party. In other words, new voters. But other restrictions -such as the 6 month period in NY- are for the express purpose of not allowing Republicans to cross-over and wreck havoc with our nominees.

I can see the point that 6 months might be too much lead time but then someone needs to press for it to change.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

your faux-point has been made . . .

get over it - your guy lost . . . bigtime

Independents can go fuck themselves.

...lump all of us together like we're all the same. I work very hard not to do that to your side, why do it to mine?

Is directly related to losing that group in the general election, how would Sanders win the general without blacks, Hispanics or women?

Or can we look at 2008 and see that Obama lost Hispanics to Clinton in the primaries and yet overwhelmingly won the in the general election.

I haven't seen these attacks you're speaking of, but here's a tip: If you want to be wooed and courted before transferring your allegiance, then you need to become more charming and act coquettish. Maybe fluttering your eyelashes and giggling would persuade suitors to seek your favor.

And I won't be the only one.

Question becomes if she can control the Mongol hordes without us.

that inspired them will be her downfall.

N/t

Just a guess.

They will vote in what they perceive their own best interest.

Your assumption is irrelevant and not based on any facts concerning the general election