I'm not going to deny that she has a lot of support, for whatever combination of reasons.

But compared to the overall population it is relatively small and concentrated.

Ordinary paths to the presidency were closed to her, so she took a different route. I don't particularly like it, but it may result in her becoming the first female president, and that can be a powerful symbol to us all.

We will, of course, have to lobby her hard if she's even to begin to live up to that promise.

And quite honestly...will pm you

...but even he cannot accomplish what Clinton would do simply by being sworn in.

ha.

Yet even Thatcher's installation represented equality of opportunity, despite every day after being a disappointment.

Saying to women yes-you-can is a separate and powerful message, even if it later tends to get lost amid years of well-no-she-didn't.

Elizabeth Warren had been running, I'd support her without the slightest hesitation.

There's a former Republican I would get behind in a heartbeat.

Notwithstanding the work that she did at the State Department in the service of “global women’s concerns” and her much-vaunted “women’s rights are human rights” declaration in Beijing in 1995 (a speech that her supporters characterize somewhat implausibly as a watershed moment in feminist history), Clinton’s record as an advocate for women is distinctly uneven. Whenever feminist principles have been at odds with what is politically expedient, expediency has tended to win the day. In the 1990s, she vigorously supported her husband’s welfare reform bill—a piece of legislation that has probably done more to immiserate the lives of poor women—particularly poor black women—than anything else over the last twenty-five years.5 In 2005, when it was politically convenient to distance herself from the pro-choice plank of the Democratic platform, she lectured family planning activists on what was regrettable and even “tragic” about abortions:

I, for one, respect those who believe with all their hearts and conscience that there are no circumstances under which any abortion should ever be available.

No feminist would say such a thing.
Add to that the women and girls' lives she destroyed in Libya and Honduras the state dept squelching minimum wage hikes in Haiti as well as her Clinton foundation ties with Saudi Arabia and i have trouble seeing her as a feminist.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/04/07/hillary-women/

Feminist. I am a feminist - old school to boot! I don't see HRC that way. Just another powerful woman judging how others should live.

She won't be someone I'll point my granddaughters to for "what a woman can accomplish", that's for certain.

She stayed by her man, and her man cometh once again.

Deja vu. groundhog day and all that.

Woman who lay down with dogs can expect to get fleas!

Based on her own statements, not my opinion, she will happily, without a moments hesitation, compromise on abortion rights, women's pay, women's healthcare, she will set women back 300 years in the blink of an eye, if she can call it a win, say she was involved, she did her best, compromises had to be made, saying "I won" is her favorite thing to say, no matter what she has to do to get there.

Last edited Wed Apr 27, 2016, 08:18 AM - Edit history (1)

But this is what we get for not promoting and electing more women long ago. The one woman who found a way around all the cultural barriers did so on the coattails of a popular male president and immense wealth.

I think she's incredibly compromised, but it's only since the rise of Sanders that I've realized how much so. And yet...Supreme Court. Veto. Executive orders. 3 a.m. Woman power. As an alternative to the epic corruption and chuckleheadedness of Republican "leaders," yeah, I could get on board.

Anyone who believes Hillary Clinton is really a progressive or has any use for anyone to the Left of herself has to have their head examined. Just like her husband, run to the Left, govern from the Right.

More so than Republicans, anyway.

While I would prefer her to lead, I think we have an opportunity to lobby her and get some results, but that's only going to happen if we do so in overwhelming numbers.

If there was an award for exemplary use of symbolism and a succinct and
accurate summation of matter at hand, it would be yours for the taking.

Besides the obvious, is having another Dynasty. I don't want Chelsea or ANY other Clinton, same goes for the Bushes...period. As Americans we left England because we didn't WANT a King or Queen.

and should just tell his people to go pound sand is guilty of political idiocy.

Trump or Kasich would give her a problem. I think she'd beat cruz easily.

If she does win, the 2018 midterms will be a historic blowout loss for the Democrats. We are already very weak at the state level. The disaster in 2018 will make us almost irrelevant.

And I fear he might very well be the nominee. I haven't been paying much attention, but I know the Republicans are going to do their best to deny Trump, and I think Kaisich is the one they will pick.

He's from Ohio, he has that phony "Aw shucks" demeanor masking how horrible he is. (I remember what an ass he was in the Congress, and I dislike him very much.) But he will fool people who don't bother to do their homework, and he will beat HRC in the GE. Personally, I think he has hung around because he thinks he will get the nomination.

Repubs and some kindly dems have been treating him (and he's been happy to support the notion) as an ignored underdog. But under fire of either of the dems, he will come undone. No effin way he's going to host dinner at the White House.

If he were the nominee Republicans will stay with their party and a significant number of Indies would vote for him.

But Kasich will come of as a scam artist next to either. Go Bernie!

edit - and that's saying a lot, considering Clinton

People may not believe it, but with Hillary running on the Democratic ticket, the republicans are going to rally to trump. They'll vote for him and against her. The Democrats will come together for Hillary, but there will be a lot of Democrats who just won't vote for her.

The problem for Hillary and the Democrats is the independent voters. They simply don't like or trust Hillary. That is a long standing state of affairs. There is no way she turns that around unless she can successfully make the case that trump is such a huge threat to the US, that independents need to forget their dislike of her to save the nation. That she is far the lesser of two evils. I don't see that happening.

What I do see is trump attacking her day after day using issues that Bernie was too nice to use. Her emails are going to be scrutinized and key bits used by trump to discredit her. Bernie didn't go there. If the FBI situation isn't resolved, that will be front and center in the attack. Bernie didn't go there. The huge donations she has taken will be portrayed as bribes--and trump will admit he donated to her for that reason. Actions of the Clinton Foundation while she was SOS will be brought forth and that looks very damning to Clinton. Bernie didn't go there.

Trump will claim that he's so wealthy he doesn't need to scrounge for money by selling access or special treatment.

Also trump is going to scale back his rhetoric. He doesn't have a problem of long standing hatred from independents. His outlandish behavior to get the republican nomination turned them off. But he could reverse that. One thing that would determine the race is who gets under the other candidate's skin enough to make them slip.

It would be a very close race.

Last edited Tue Apr 26, 2016, 08:07 PM - Edit history (2)

Unless some of the independents are smart enough to know what a disaster Trump would be, or a conservative like Kasich or Cruz.

But like I said, just because some of us will vote for her, does not mean we support her or will join in a happy party. We will vote to not end up with Cruz or Trump in the whitehouse. And we will vote for worthy down-ticket dems.

this party is shattered for a long time for as far as I can see. Because I don't see the Hillary crowd coming around to support Sanders if he wins either. We have drifted too far apart and there is too much hatred now between the divide. We really do not want the same things for our country. Hill supporters are fine with things as they are now. Bernie supporters are not. We will wait for the next revolution and it will be even bigger than this one. We will win eventually.

And neither the Republicans or Democrats have any sight for what is exactly in front of them. It won't matter in the long run if we have Cruz or Clinton. Neither will effect real change where we need it.

by Cruz, I mean whomever they choose.

that is the epicenter.

She has got and continues to get a lot of help, they do constitute the majority of our Democratic office holders elected and non elected and after having the wheel for a generation have deep penetration into the the thinking of many in the rank and file if for no other reason many cannot really even conceive of anything different.

Enough so that to be fair it is nobody's fault anymore, we are just having to deal some difficult to nearly impossible political differences because the other guys are a nasty mix of racists, sexists, homophobes, theocrats, and assorted nutcases and idiots.

This would be an understandable focus point if the whole rest of maintaining a society was competently run for the benefit of the many as well as the future and not a full blown extraction scam playing chicken with Armageddon but neither is the case so no everything else can't be ignored nor could you if you wanted to because there are too many deep connections very bound up and cross pollinating making new mutant variants of fucked up shit all the time.

No, not mainly Hillary Clinton at all but she has long been one of the top leaders in the political officials realm of this failed ideology.

There is no way he can win the general election without this support.

To say nothing of his limited appeal with women voters.

If it ends up being Hillary vs. Trump in the general election, it will be a very comfortable victory for Hillary.

That won't be a deciding factor. The women's vote usually skews Democratic and that too won't be the decisive.

You cannot win a GE in this country without winning the independent vote. Hillary will not do that. She is fatally wounded already. Trump is going to moderate his image in the campaign and that will seal the deal.

It will be a close win by Trump.

Obama won 60 percent of self-proclaimed "moderates" and I think Hillary would do well with that group as well, especially against an extremist like Trump or Cruz. Combine that with her doing better than usual with Hispanics (as you acknowledge), which, by the way, is the fastest growing segment of the voting population, and dominating with African-American voters, and you have a recipe for a major Democratic victory.

I am not sure if you are aware of this but Donald Trump has historically high unfavorable ratings, higher than Hillary.

And why Hillary's won't. Trump has a clear field to maneuver in. Hillary is stuck being Hillary.

You cling to the notion that Hillary doing well with voting blocks that are already virtually owned by the Democrats is going to be decisive. The Democrats will get nearly all of the AA vote. That in no change. The Democrats will get three quarters of the Hispanic vote, that's a few percent improvement. Higher voter turnout by Hispanics could help her a little bit more. But again, this isn't where a victory will come from. Same for the women's vote.

Hillary isn't Obama. Obama did much better with independents than Hillary will--much better. He never had the visceral negatives she has. The independents, 40% or the electorate, are where the election will be lost.

I thought Bernies thing was supposed to be a movement. The mid terms are where real change occurs.

And she'll do it with a smile an a chuckle because we all know how much she embraces death and destruction.

a pantsuit at the end of times.



heh

The alternative is giving Republicans all three branches of government.

Clinton will put a reliable liberal on the Supreme court, someone like Ginsburg. (Bill Clinton appointed Ginsburg.) And with Ginsburg at 83, Kennedy at 79, and Breyer at 77, she will be in a position keep the balance of the Court on the left.

She will most likely have a friendly Senate. The House will remain Republican insane. This is a replay of the Obama Administration sicne 2010.

That is the best Sanders could hope for.

And she's not new. She can't exactly re-introduce herself to America. Good or bad, people feel they know her, and I don't think a lot of those who dislike her will change their minds.

because he's a complete whack job. He won't be the nominee.

Voters aren't in the mood for the status quo this year. Look no further than Bernie and Trump's popularity.

Whether it's Trump or Kasich, she'd have a very tough time of it. Dems who like her tend to be blind to the extent of the Hillary hatred out there. There are Repukes and Independents who would crawl over broken glass on bare hands and knees for the opportunity to vote against her. I can't stand Trump or Kasich, but I don't feel the kind of intense visceral hatred that will motivate the anti-Hillary brigade this fall. She'll need every Bernie voter and then some. After the campaign she's run and with her horrible rightwing positions on the issues, good luck with that.

I just fear it, and I especially fear Kaisich for the reason I already stated.

not just on a "vote for me because the GOP is so awful."

That line has been disastrous for Democrats, when they forget why people who are center-to-left put them into office.

You can "win" and still lose.

I get that one can both win and lose.

We will never see another Ginsburg-like justice in our lifetimes.

In fact, she may have a chance to appoint 3.

All her picks will be center-right, corporate-friendly stooges because that's what Hill is.

I dont know how she does that and I dont know if the Sanders people will ever trust her but it does need to happen.

believe any attempts by her to integrate anything Sanders represents. The problem is, we know her we know what she represents. She can say whatever she wants. We know better.

Is that fair to say?

to get my support. Her record is clear,I know her record, some good some bad. She can attempt to "use" Bernie's issues in her campaign. I know better, I know Hillary.

working Bernie's goals into their national agenda. It's not like the two camps are polar opposites.

The two camps are polar opposites on economic policy and foreign policy. The Clintons aren't going to change who they are just because Bernie put up a good fight in the primaries.

They may talk about this or that, but it will be total bullshit. If it isn't good for Goldman, they're not going there.

And while Hillary's foreign policy will not be as PNACish as some DUers have envisioned, it will never be viewed by the world as having no backbone.

More people will get sick and die needlessly because universal affordable healthcare is a "giveaway." Kids will either still be excluded from necessary post-secondary education or burdened with untenable debt, and we aexpect them to survive in today's world? Old people on SS should continue to eat cat food, while the wealthy continue to be excluded from helping out more?

Oh well...Why bother with an election?...I know, the GOP. But a lack of motivating goals tends to depress motivation to vote.

How about trade deals that are great for maybe the top 10% but have devastated the middle and working classes? How about tax policy and truly making the rich pay their fair share instead of simply giving them more loopholes? How about breaking up banks that have a strangle hold on economic policy because if they go down the whole economy crumbles? How about maintaining Social Security as a viable government run program--and not allowing any privatization or reduction in benefits? How about actually regulating financial instruments instead of letting the banks and brokerages determine what goes? etc. etc.

Hillary is on the wrong side of all these issues. The free stuff goes to her sponsors in the 1%.

She is a "progressive" who knows how to regress.

98% of voters have no problem with that.

Benefits went overseas. He made millions and smiles a lot all while treating women like commodities. I've learned enough about the Clintons to feel shame at ever having believed them and voted for him.

That'd be your guy.

were also real.

took advantage of the opportunities which existed during that period.

Manufacturing went up for a few years after NAFTA as workers built equipment for the workers in other countries. After that it was a downhill slide.

We see it in the debates, in videos and the memories that we have of her actions. How does one trust her. It's a valid question. Some people here do and I would love to know how?

Giving lipservice to causes is not action. Sorry it just is not!

but misplaced, I believe.

optimism of your own because it's either Hill or The Donald. Who do you want picking your next 3 Supreme Court justices?

She is a corporate hack. He is a corporate hack.

Neither will do away with citizen united. She won't want to be seen as weak, so her nominees will be compromises to the Right. She has done this again and again.

Really.

I am going back to fighting for environmental issues here in the PNW, along with gentrification and other issues that directly affect my spot on the earth.

Because the country as a whole has chosen (I say that with tongue in cheek) to make it a race to the last.

Good luck out there. From poisoned waters in West Virginia to earthquakes in Oklahoma to the whole state of Deleware being a credit card utopia...


I cannot care any more than you all do. A course is set.

and have no problems passing a corporate agenda. They like it that way b/c then they can blame it on the other side when stuff for the people is not passed.

But it is amazing how much is NEVER done when we control all three branches.

And it's about a lot more than Bernie supporters. Lifelong Democrats have jumped ship for the other side because they viewed Clinton as inevitable and they were not going to vote for her. They always try to gloss over Democrats that voted in the Republican primary or make a stupid excuse for it. There is a reason they want to ignore it.

and nominates a center/right corporatist to SCOTUS, she'll do just fine. From her own
mouth she's all about bipartisanship and getting things done.

The scandals are there for the picking and choosing. Just to remind her of who holds
the whip.

If she and the Democrat Establishment do that kind of shit....they will slide into irrelevance, or worse due to a combination of anger and apathy

You were so subtle it went right over my head.

The Republicans will be onboard for things like trade and foreign policy, which is what the Clintons are mostly about. They can blame the lack of any other accomplishments on Republicans. Same old story, we've seen this movie way too many times.

I don't see them giving the Bernie wing of the party anything but the back of their hands, unless we have some way to force concessions out of them. If they win election, we have no leverage over them whatsoever to get any of our policies.

grass roots support. She will never swing left. We have seen it time and again with both Hillary and Bill no matter what they say to get what they want. She does not inspire. Bernie people are far less likely to get behind her than her supporters were Obama. This will be just one more long national nightmare brought on by a nominee who has more bad things to slam her with than probably anyone ever and a Republican party who have already drawn up impeachment papers.

Nominating her creates a big fat opening for the Repukes to tear her to shreds scandal (real or trumped up) by scandal. If she miraculously pulled it off, she'd make the treatment they afforded Obama look like a love fest. Hillary is just plain bad news.

This is the way the dynasties crumble but it is never good for the rest of us while it happens. We need to stop this crap from the start. We won't. We become smitten with our leaders as we make fun of those who love their Queen or King. What a country.

power if we stick together. We will not get everything we want but we will be able to influence what gets passed and what needs to be stopped.

And we will more than likely have Bernie and Elizabeth and other progressive legislatures in Congress to walk with us.

However we are ahead of ourselves. We still have a primary to win.

and/or those with the contributions and gravy gigs to offer.

I think we have too many people desperately trying to get to a yes to force real compromise to our viewpoints.

Folks who are afraid to lose and who are risk adverse will always knuckle under when dealing with brawlers and the Clintons and their Turd Way gang are brawlers it just doesn't seem so because they are bullies and will only fight those they think they can chump out aka us soft ass, too peaceable, too reasonable, ever seeking compromise lefties.

Give me a hard nosed left with sharp elbows willing to take our lumps and deal them out we have something but if we have a bunch of risk adverse, mealy mouths, hand wringing about tone, focused on getting along, and thinking of compromise as a goal rather than a tactic to get as much of the loaf as can be had then we've got less than nothing.

The Democratic Stockholm Syndrome
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/04/20/democratic-stockholm-syndrome

NO SIDES!

so I could read it off and on during the remaining years. What a classic that is. A $14.00 hard roll stuffed with bologna, NO SIDES! If that does not describe HRC nothing does. Thanks!

From the link:

Like you I want a fighter, a scrapper, a marathon runner! That isn't a Clinton. You're right, they are bullies and con artists.

If Hillary wins ... they'll "regroup" ... but if Bernie were to win ... what exactly???

They'll roll over and see the light????

I'd rather see a Battle Royale over single payer insurance -- or at least a public option -- then being limited to the skirmishes just for the "holding action" to keep Obama care afloat. ....Fighting for the whole load doesn't mean you also have to abandon the fight for the existing crumbs.

And the flip side would apply -- Bernie would have to be amenable to some levels of compromise.He did prove in Michigan that he does know how to govern pragmatically and get things done.

should she get to the WH, the House will not only
start impeachment hearings, but will have committee
after committee about the Clinton Foundation, and
other issues, which they will drag up.

She may be allowed to sign the TPP, which would reduce
the authority of all politicians in office.

Then 2018:both Houses in Congress will get a majority
of repugs.

Other Congress people openly dislike Sanders. He has never had much influence in Congress, and he isn't likely to have much going forward.

Hillary has helped tons of people down ticket. She gained a lot of respect from her peers when she was a Senator. She did a lot of work with people on both sides of the aisle. Sanders has nothing to do with that.

The "grass roots support" that WOULD help a President is the grass roots support to get Democrats elected to Congress. Sanders did NOTHING to forward that.

Whatever Hillary might have to learn from Sanders, or gain from Sanders's support, this is definitely NOT it.

Just as they don't get people elected, big "grass roots" rallies don't get laws passed.

And if Democrats in Congress are so petty they would not work with and support Sanders because they don't like his personality...then they would be petty and destructive to the interests of America.

And all that money that you guys have been rending your garments about will go very far toward helping Democrats get elected. Certainly farther than ANYTHING Sanders has ever done.

And finally, there is a bald fact that you guys don't seem to be able to get: if Sanders inspired more people to VOTE he would have won. Hillary has inspired people to do the things that count. That's why she won. Granted, Sanders can inspire people to go to a rally, but he has proven himself unable to inspire them to do the things that are required of citizens who actually participate in governance. Hillary has inspired millions more people which is how she outpaced him so far in the popular vote.