better candidate than either Cruz or Trump.

to get him elected.

vote went down, but people like you just keep ignoring the facts surrounding it. I would go over those facts, but there's just no point. The listening ability among BS supporters is broken when it comes to this issue.

They both lived in the White House. That has to carry meaning that those who haven't lived there won't understand. They have shared experiences and, much as I detest the man's policies, he is a human being and people should develop camaraderie with one another to achieve compromise and find ways to reach their respective goals. I sometimes wonder if some of you would prefer our presidents go down to the Congress with fists out ready to rumble. This is the part of politics I hate the most, that people on both extreme ends of the spectrum (or the Horseshoe—to be more appropriate) feel like they must constantly be in vicious conflict.

maybe a million, but hey we live in the same place, so it's ok

The use of force comes with the territory. Now, I don't believe the use of force in Iraq was justified but there is a respect that comes from the office of the presidency and I respect Hillary for understanding that.

Over 32,000 wounded?

Oh yeah. Funny story about that. Let me explain...

Jesus H. Fucking Christ.

you could point that out.

They didn't convince Dick Durbin with their lies. Linc Chafee didn't buy it either. What made her so gullible...Kerry too? Maybe ambition? That's unacceptable.

I am a Bernie supporter but I don't hate Hillary, and I definitely think she would be a better president than George W. Bush. I just don't think she would be as good of a president as Bernie, or Obama for that matter.

But I agree that comparing her to GWB is just silly.

...without being all "wtf?". I don't see opinions like that often, lately, but when I do I'm always happy to see them.

Kind of a sad statement of America, and probably the world, I guess. This kind of polarization is spread by media, social-media included.

Towards other liberals, progressives, and Democrats?

...there has clearly been overwrought anti-Hillary venom, too.

disagree with any positions of hers as it is a sexist attack, lol

That is normally directed at republicans. Identity politics has become commonplace which has resulted in both sides questioning the integrity of the other.

...and leading up to that, collapse-of-empire.

Long knives coming out, all around.

HRC and GWB - kind of shocking. You could see genuine affection between them.

Ick!

allegations plus the Bernie supporter bashing have left her scarred but unbowed. I like that. She is a fighter. She is a good, caring person and those who have actually met her, worked with her know it.

... Sanders will most likely never run for prez again but Hillary would keep trying.

She's empirically tougher than many of her male counterparts

Them, win or lose. And Bernie will keep fighting for us in the Senate or the Presidency or in movement politics.

Her mentor is Henry Kissenger.

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/12/henry-kissingers-war-crimes-are-central-to-the-divide-between-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders/

I don't find her terribly genuine and I don't trust her to keep her word on anything.

I am extremely critical of her IWR vote, but Cheney/Bush/Rummy/Condi are the real criminals.

Here's a little love note I read today at Discussionist from a disgruntled Bernie fan:

I voted for Bernie. But Sec. Clinton has the potential to be a very good President as well.

I suspect she is somewhat further to the left on economic issues than most people believe.

Unreflective, defensive, hostile, uncompromising and undemocratic.

Confused, stunned and completely unable to fathom the parallel universe your Hillary comes from?

That covers your parallel universe well enough.

...so hateful?

Sorry, but the idea that my children are going to be even worse off than myself thanks to the perpetuity of corruption that a President Clinton is certain to bring to the White House pisses me off. This isn't over a sports outcome. This is over the quality of our lives. Much is at stake.

...we just disagree on who is the best one to make this country better. I've been watching her talk about income inequality for over a decade now while my life has gradually turned to shit around me.

I'm not passive at all; I just put my hope on someone else.

Well, my hate for Hillary Clinton differs little from most other Sanders supporters: she is basically a Republican with a D next to her name. She is a war hawk, changes her position whenever it suits her politically, lies pathologically and has nothing but contempt for real progressives. What's not to hate?

I think I understand, then.

I'm sorry you feel this way (and I mean I'm sorry that you're upset, not sorry that you hate her) and I hope that you're wrong and your children have a wonderful life. And I mean that, human to human.

If she becomes the nominee and ultimately the president, I truly hope that I'm wrong too. She's supposed to serve our nation's interests, and I hope she exceeds my expectation that she will fail in that capacity out of sheer self-interest.

More than a couple times to watch as the ring slips away from your candidate's grasp and reality sets in. It stings. Really bad. It will take a little while for the outwardly-directed frustration and grief to die down.

a world that is over the edge and not pulling back. I really do believe this is a very important election and to have someone who believes that corporate profit decisions are more important than global warming or economic rule of the corporation that actually does one thing and says another, not good for the country, our descendents or humanity as a whole.

Please do not think this is just drama, last year we lost a hard fought for law labeling meat because it might cause a profit loss to Canadian meat (as rulesd by the corporate judges of the WHO), the keystone pipeline wants us to give them billions of dollars (Koch bros) because we did not allow them to seize the land of US citizens to construct a pipeline than might forever pollute their land and quite possibly an aquifer that provides the water across several states, to produce oil we don't need. And Clinton supports expanding and making more of these deals (the TPP only needs some tweaking).

when do I get to vote my interests instead of a lesser evil.

He was simply a wolf. There was no sheep's clothing he attempted to adorn himself in. He was and is a horrible, horrible, mangy, disgusting wolf.

She is a wolf in sheep's clothing, plain and simple. Acknowledging that doesn't make me not progressive. It makes me honest, and unwilling to join the flock of sheep willing to look the other way as Hillary constantly takes on and off her sheep's clothing. The only thing she is committed to is her personal ambition. She has no core values that govern her politics, and she is willing to compromise what she previously stood for without a second thought. Lying is second nature to her, to such an extent she almost seems incapable of sincerity.

She IS deserving of my hatred, and boy has she earned it.

past 20 days (since you decided to post on DU)?

Thanks for "bringing me to heel". Now I know better.

Pssst...your profile says your favorite group here is Hillary Clinton.
Might want to look into that.

Will do.

we always criticize republicans for voting against their own interests - right?

I lost my job to a flush of H1B visa people , almost every IT person across the board did in this one Division, as they eventually a couple of years later moved the whole operation to India, but int he mean while hired foreign workers in violation of the H1B visa act as is commonly known. Never worked since then, Ihave friends who have never worked since they lost their jobs.
Hillary Clinton wants to allow more H1B visa people in this country because corporations need them (to depress the wages of tech people). She has never spoken about the fact that less qualified people are taking our jobs. Never suggested taht anyone crack down on this illegal use of H1B people.

why should I vote for someone who is acting against my self interest? Lesser of 2 evils? when do we get someone who is not the lesser? when do I get to vote for someone who supports people over corporations? Romney got in trouble for saying Corporations are people, well the trade bill Clinton supports make corporations better than people , they can over rule ths laws we voted for in the benefit of the corporation profit which is the ruling law over everything else.

with the H1B visas with President Trump or President Cruz???

his defeat. He can go out with class and support the winning candidate (and, btw, help to unify the party for the GE) or he can go all Weaver scorched-earth, in which case he'll be lucky if the Senate Democrats let him caucus with them.

That was easy.

So a straw man is a straw man is a straw man

Not much else to say, is there?

majority of Democrats.

And a solid majority of Americans, given the alternative of Trump or Cruz.

Fringe lefties like Susan Sarandon don't, but they're pretty much irrelevant

n/t

there's no judicial process for killing Al Qaeda, Daesh, and Taliban terrorists, so extra-judicial works just fine with me.

This slime campained for the man who committed that atrocity without justification for nothing more but her own gain. I worked in baghdad irak for 9 month in 1978,i visited mossul ,basra, kerbula, ur, babylon, and al ukkadir.all those mesmerizing places and the people ,who lived there destroyed or killed, over a lie.

she stand on fracking? Where does she stand on unfare free trade? How did she vote on going to war in Iraq? Etc. Etc.

We won't know which road we are on.

Fracking, support for TPP, "incrementalism" etc dooms us and ensures her a terrible legacy.

I'm beyond hate. True progressives understand that we can't afford to wait any longer.

Her election seals her fate and ours. Hillary and her supporters will have to live with their conscience for the rest of their lives. The rest of us can move on unencumbered by remorse.

That works for me.

...Americans and theres no way someone is going to convince a true progressive that Hillary years will be anything close

by every class except the 1%.

You get to own that when those years arrive knowing you joyfully participated in dooming all of us.

With her support of TPP and all that entails she is bad for the environment, people, families etc.

I see a person who will be destructive and compromised. Just watching and listening to her performance during the last debate should have given people pause in their support of Hillary.

...were the only years that my mom didn't have to work multiple jobs.

she learned nothing, but bombed Libya;

she's a disaster on free trade, she has a documented history of using State for quid pro quo; she's in the tank
for Wall Street, has a history of anti-Latino deeds, championed WJC's racist policies toward blacks, etc....

right wing. She has always been a progressive and has always fought for progressive ideals. People who actually think she is a republican live in a bizarre, upside down world. I think it's a sign of disordered thinking and of immaturity. It's evidence that some people will simply believe whatever they want when it's convenient for them, regardless of the facts. I'm used to seeing republicans act that way, but it's disappointing seeing it on the left.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior which is highly corporatist and so forth.

This chart is missing Capital Punishment (Bush & Clinton like it), cutting social security benefits (same), continued failed intervention in the middle east and latin america (same), friendship with Kissinger(same), and Mrs. Clinton's equivocation on reproductive rights and gay marriage.

I don't think you understand what it means to be progressive OR what Clinton's record really is. If you did, you would understand that Hillary is no progressive and no progressive could possibly support her. The whole DLC/Third Way movement, led by the Clinton's was created to reduce the progressive influence in the Democratic Party to insignificance.

'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.”

...on to everyone. I make my political choices on logic not personal "love or hate."

No fucking wonder some people live in cognitive dissonance.

It's just average. I don't put myself first on the planet.

more than they hate republicans.

Supporters such as yourself only seem to concern yourself with the effect that indeed she is hated. The reasons why she is hated by a solid majority of REAL progressives are numerous and impossible to avoid on forums like these. You know the reasons why we hate her, and have chosen to ignore these reasons in lieu of your personal preferences. That's fine, but we progressives simply aren't content with your group's insistence that we flock to Clinton and drop Sanders because:

1. You say she's the nominee (you've been saying this since March, despite all evidence to the contrary)
2. The corporate media says she's the nominee (since March)
3. Sexism
4. She's not Trump

... ceding it to?

Just my guess

If you're trying to attribute many progressives' hatred of Clinton to her likely victory over their choice in candidate, you're excluding the enormous laundry list of her personal and political attributes that make her so universally despised.

Was I happy when John Kerry defeated my choice (Howard Dean) in 2004? Hell no. However, I harbored no hatred for John Kerry and was more than eager to get behind him in his effort to oust Bush in the GE.

When we say it's Hillary, trust us. It's Hillary. She is insufferable, dishonest, unreliable and deplorable.

... going of those two facts that aren't in dispute the conversation can begin from there.

Clinton doesn't deserve Bush level hatred, it seems more petulant than an even perspective

Many of us lifelong Democrats (left and real centrists) hate her lying guts. We are part of the Dem base. The base != "whomever loves Hillary". The base == "Whomever is a Democratic voter".

Are you really trying to define the Democratic Party by Republican standards (i.e. lockstep)? Please.

... there's no way I'm convinced HRC deserves that much hate

... they don't and that's why they're going with Sanders to the degree they are.

The "establishment" is losing power fast and they're acting accordingly

War...both in favor.
Fracking...both in favor.
Neocon foreign policy...both in favor.
Neoliberal economics...both in favor.
'Free' Trade agreements...both in favor.
Offshoring jobs...both in favor.
H1B visas taking American jobs...both in favor.
Privatization...both in favor.
Lax regulation of Wall St....both in favor.
Pay to play...both in favor.
Rovian campaign tactics...both in favor.
Insider deals...both in favor.
Lies...both in favor.

I'm still trying to figure out why Clinton isn't still a Republican. She's what I've spent 40 years as a Democrat voting against...why would I want to start voting for that now?

1) "Open" to Constitutional amendment about abortion.
2) Should New York recognize gay marriage? "No."
3) Iraq War vote and "close, personal relationship with Bush Junior"
4) Libya - "we came, we saw, he died"
5) FOIA, perjury, email
6) Clinton Foundation - Haiti and "pay to play" donors with State Department
7) "I've always supported $15"

She spins enough to make me sick to my stomach and lies just like a Republican front runner - confidently, like people are too stupid to remember what she said five minutes before. ("Obama's accomplishments are really mine because I helped him, but if Libya was bad it was his fault for following my advice!" - wtf?)

Prove me wrong. Take every one of those points and break them down to show me how they are right-wing talking points. For instance, "Open" to Constitutional amendment about abortion. Right-wing talking point? Really? Should New York recognize gay marriage? "No." The right-wingers are really criticizing Hillary for her anti-same sex marriage stance? Prove me wrong, point by point.

I can think many times more of someone than Dumbass Dubya and still feel they don't represent my values, my interests, the right direction for the nation, or deserve my vote for any number of reasons.

One off...sure but what we have here is an unending and escalating pattern of the promotion of a dangerous ideology using the insane opposition as almost too convenient cover. It is hard to believe this whole chain of events could even play out but I guess here we are.

You don't really even have to reach to Bush. I wouldn't vote for Feinstein much less Lugar, I'd prefer Clinton to either and I'm a lot more kindly toward them than Junior.

... and hate Hillary just the same.

better than the poison pond scum that has come up behind him by a fair margin.

None of them get my vote.

makes me think, "I am not a Democrat. Those people are pieces of shit."

all support HRC.

... or who's conservative.

They don't, their power is being shared with the others and we all will define such.

That privilege is lost

With her positions (at least the ones she has now), she could easily run as a socially liberal Republican. Can you not see how this could make some left-leaning people dislike her?

I remember Reagan, then Bill Clinton's presidency, then GWB and Obama. And I have seen the difference between actual DINOs and the GOP in my own state's politics (DINOs 1000% better than GOP). So yeah, I know the difference between Dems and Reps AND I know how to really hate the GOP. Like the power of 1000 suns-level of hate.

I hated GWB so much, I thought my brains were going to liquify and drip out of my ears. I hate the current NC GOP every bit as much for the voter disenfranchisement, HB2 AND I just figured out that the fuckers raised taxes on my small business, those stinking, gleet-encrusted, hypocritical, corrupt, amateur-hour, two-bit pieces of dog shit.

Bill Clinton gave me an Earned Income Credit while I was struggling financially and started my small business. Hillary Clinton tried to get universal day care, until the GOP and Lewinsky blew that plan up. Obama tried to fix my shitty healthcare plan. Imperfectly, but it was the best they could get passed at the time, and at least he fucking tried. And you know why Clinton won NY by so much? Because she was a good Senator. She worked hard and was good at her job. People remember these things.... So they are not perfect. But we don't live in a perfect world and they are the best we are going to get.

I think people who can't tell the difference either live somewhere where it doesn't matter much, they are very young and/or they were not paying attention until they started feeling that bern.

obstructing the 2012 Syrian Peace accord, pressuring for regime change in Syria,
supporting an anti-democratic coup in Honduras, etc.......can easily make one
think Hillary is not that much better than Bush

worse. I think Bush had no clue what would happen when he invaded Iraq, but I can't say the same for her. They both shilled for corporations but she is a lot better, and more subtle at it. And I have to say if you were to map out all her connections to those who profited from arms sales to the Saudis, Algerians, Qataris, and those who lobbied for and profited from the military intervention in Libya and the diplomatic intervention in Haiti, Honduras and Colombia it would a lot like she was engaging in influence peddling.

Where criticism is due.

Her supporters have very thin skin

not that different from those of Bush. Her rhetoric is progressive, but, for the most part, her record has not. Her foreign policy is to use "smart power" to open up more markets for US companies, i.e., using diplomacy when she can and the military when she cannot. She will insist on having "worker protections" in her Free Trade Agreements and then discretely work against their enforcement when the American companies say that can't afford to pay the minimum wage. If you want to continue our path to becoming a Third World country, if you want your kids to compete with Haitian workers making 60 cents an hours, if you want to continue to be taxed to pay for a military that is used to reinforce a global system that undercuts American workers, she's your candidate. Let's hope you are your family are not called upon to be among those selected as cannon fodder for the wars we will pursue for "American" corporations around the world.