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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:50 PM Apr 2016

HRC won NY, but was it worth the ugliness of the way she did it?

Was it worth the entrenchment of the lie that the social justice and economic justice movements have nothing in common?

Was it worth spreading the lie that challenging corporate control of life is somehow white supremacist?

Was it worth doubling down on the idea that idealists are deserving of no respect and dreams are a joke?

Was it worth driving away potentially millions of voters we could have brought into this party(not even necessarily by nominating Bernie, but by at least embracing his message and the movement who support it)?

Was it worth the damage done?

HRC probably could have won NY simply by making a positive case for the small number of progressive things in her program. That's how she should have campaigned. Not by privileging dismissiveness, not by creating divisions that never previously existed, not by having her surrogates falsely accuse Bernie of not caring about racism or POC.

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HRC won NY, but was it worth the ugliness of the way she did it? (Original Post) Ken Burch Apr 2016 OP
Tell me, who got called a corporate whore? Who got the money thrown at her car? Gomez163 Apr 2016 #1
That wasn't a reference to HRC(granted, it shouldn't have been said). Ken Burch Apr 2016 #5
Just like when someone got in trouble for, in my preferred use of the idiom... moriah Apr 2016 #58
It's strange to me that the Clinton camp was so instantly defensive and victimized. Zen Democrat Apr 2016 #62
What I find far more upsetting is that the fundraisers... moriah Apr 2016 #63
Sanders lost, and immediately the excuses and conspiracy theories began. You're projecting again. IamMab Apr 2016 #73
That Event Was One Of THE BEST AND MOST APPROPRIATE Protest Actions In American History! CorporatistNation Apr 2016 #65
Yeah, protesting events raising money for downticket Democrats is something to be mighty proud of. moriah Apr 2016 #68
As if that was inappropriate or something. nt silvershadow Apr 2016 #10
I grant you, corporate puppet would be a better choice of words. HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #21
We were discussing "ugliness." Gomez163 Apr 2016 #24
Politicans who are corrupted by corporate money... Bohemianwriter Apr 2016 #30
+ 10000 JoePhilly Apr 2016 #35
Right all the ugly was coming from Bernie's side workinclasszero Apr 2016 #60
LOL leftynyc Apr 2016 #2
Clinton looked angry like a sire winner even in victory....She always looks angry Armstead Apr 2016 #17
I watched and she didn't look angry at all to me radical noodle Apr 2016 #29
That's nuts apcalc Apr 2016 #56
That's pure fantasy. okasha Apr 2016 #67
In NY, Bernie was FAR more negative. CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #3
Nothing could possibly be more negative... Orsino Apr 2016 #13
'...the permission of Big Money"? Where do you get this stuff? randome Apr 2016 #31
I don't get it, but opensecrets can tell you who does. n/t Orsino Apr 2016 #32
You lay blame but never prove your accusations: what did he say that wasn't issue-oriented? snowy owl Apr 2016 #70
Here's two big ones: CrowCityDem Apr 2016 #72
Bernie was the one who turned things negative. Hopefully he will keep it positive from now on. YouDig Apr 2016 #4
Is criticizing the corrupt system negative? Well sorry the system IS corrupt. Armstead Apr 2016 #18
Yes, the system is badly corrupted. HooptieWagon Apr 2016 #22
Sharp criticism of an opponent is going negative. Bernie was doing that. YouDig Apr 2016 #23
Being negative about systemic problems is not the same as... Armstead Apr 2016 #25
That is true, but he was pretty pointed in his criticism. He made a lot of negative points YouDig Apr 2016 #27
Her surrogates made the "disqualify" meme - not Bernie. Bernie said "if....then she's not ... snowy owl Apr 2016 #71
He said HRC wasn't qualified to be President. Weaver said she made a 'deal with the devil' emulatorloo Apr 2016 #46
Yeah, those two have pushed for bad choices. n/t. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #50
I'd like to hear more of his how to fix the system WhiteTara Apr 2016 #55
I't was a different job, but I'd suggest you look at how he was as Burlington Mayor Armstead Apr 2016 #59
Blind partisanship is blind BeyondGeography Apr 2016 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author NCTraveler Apr 2016 #7
Wow!!! fun n serious Apr 2016 #8
by any means necessary. nt restorefreedom Apr 2016 #9
beat me to it azurnoir Apr 2016 #15
:) nt restorefreedom Apr 2016 #16
Don't lose mad...just lose. nt LexVegas Apr 2016 #11
Transparency is transparent.... Bluenorthwest Apr 2016 #37
Ugliness = winning one of the most diverse sets of voters? REALLY?! uponit7771 Apr 2016 #12
Ugliness is Transparent Posts hidden by Jury: 7 Bluenorthwest Apr 2016 #39
Pyrrhic Victory Aerows Apr 2016 #42
I'm assuming this is an attempt to goad Clinton supporters into a hide. NCTraveler Apr 2016 #14
Her ugliness? Seriously. Lordy dude. seabeyond Apr 2016 #19
I wasn't talking about personal appearance. n/t. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #40
Post removed Post removed Apr 2016 #41
the ugliness of tone. n/t. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #44
and the actual words you used. seabeyond Apr 2016 #45
Which still doesn't equate to calling her physically ugly. Ken Burch Apr 2016 #49
"was it worth the ugliness" Then look at your post. Hence, flabbergasted with your OP. seabeyond Apr 2016 #43
Shocker! Establishment Candidate Wins Home State! knixphan Apr 2016 #20
Both groups best get their shit together and quick. Actor Apr 2016 #26
Are you trying out for an Academy Award? Lil Missy Apr 2016 #28
I'm deeply touched by your concern anigbrowl Apr 2016 #33
"simply by making a positive case for the small number of progressive things in her program" Tarc Apr 2016 #34
I thought she was fighting for us! k8conant Apr 2016 #36
enough with the melodrama and self-pity nt geek tragedy Apr 2016 #38
Ah yes, Hillary is the personification of evil. The Repugnants were right! Bill USA Apr 2016 #47
You're projecting DemonGoddess Apr 2016 #48
Examples of aforementioned "smears"would be appreciated at this point. nt Smarmie Doofus Apr 2016 #53
Of course it was Depaysement Apr 2016 #51
LMAO leftofcool Apr 2016 #52
But that is the true Hillary Clinton emsimon33 Apr 2016 #54
Sheesh - of course..2 person contest - if you aint first, your last. jmg257 Apr 2016 #57
I think she has splintered the party. northernsouthern Apr 2016 #61
The Clinton campaign and others have been treating Sanders with kids gloves compared to the GOP Gothmog Apr 2016 #64
That would be what the Kochs and Karl Rove okasha Apr 2016 #69
Are the Sanders supporters prepared for what the GOP and the Kochs will throw at Sanders? Gothmog Apr 2016 #66
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
5. That wasn't a reference to HRC(granted, it shouldn't have been said).
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:58 PM
Apr 2016

And the money would have been thrown at a male candidates's car too.

Not everything is sexism.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
58. Just like when someone got in trouble for, in my preferred use of the idiom...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:03 PM
Apr 2016

... saying "call a spade a bloody shovel"?

C'mon, either you admit some things are inappropriate to say/do when a candidate is of a protected class, or all the brouhaha over code words in 2008 was nonsense. You have to admit that at least with that particular idiom, it's traced back FAR further than even the 400+ years Africans have been treated to horrific racial epithets.

There was far worse said in 2008, and I deplored it. But it's absolutely tasteless for a campaign to sponsor throwing dollar bills at a female candidate like they are a stripper after letting someone introduce their candidate with a speech including the word "whore".

It might not be sexist, but it's damn sure tasteless and desperate.

Zen Democrat

(5,901 posts)
62. It's strange to me that the Clinton camp was so instantly defensive and victimized.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:26 PM
Apr 2016

If Hillary can't take it, she should get out of the kitchen. But the truth is that Hillary can give as good as she gets and is far stronger and smarter than her supporters.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
63. What I find far more upsetting is that the fundraisers...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:32 PM
Apr 2016

... were for the Democratic Party.

I'm extremely disappointed in Jeff Weaver's behavior this week, particularly as evidenced here:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/04/19/sanders_campaigns_weaver_race_will_be_determined_by_superdelegates_not_pledged_delegates.html

Bernie either needs to get him in hand, or he's officially saying for the campaign he plans to go PUMA outright.

I feel bad for Bernie's supporters, but I think Jeff's who lost them the nomination. He's been going overboard for months now.

 

IamMab

(1,359 posts)
73. Sanders lost, and immediately the excuses and conspiracy theories began. You're projecting again.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:33 AM
Apr 2016

If Bernie and his supporters "can't take it" maybe they should be the ones to get out of the kitchen.

Lose with some dignity, FFS.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
65. That Event Was One Of THE BEST AND MOST APPROPRIATE Protest Actions In American History!
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:04 PM
Apr 2016

BEAUTIFUL....

&nohtml5=False

&ebc=ANyPxKqpqEAIaSBl-GQO0B1QYWJ3A8oXvJ7HV0JhKwN8792_wPYHUpjct4mnmMKoNVRDjDKxk0t9xHgLYbX4Wz_VatzfEn8LyQ&nohtml5=False

&ebc=ANyPxKqpqEAIaSBl-GQO0B1QYWJ3A8oXvJ7HV0JhKwN8792_wPYHUpjct4mnmMKoNVRDjDKxk0t9xHgLYbX4Wz_VatzfEn8LyQ&nohtml5=False

moriah

(8,311 posts)
68. Yeah, protesting events raising money for downticket Democrats is something to be mighty proud of.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:19 PM
Apr 2016

If you don't give a rat's ass about Congress, at least.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
21. I grant you, corporate puppet would be a better choice of words.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:18 PM
Apr 2016

.But if the shoe fits....
You can't dispute the source of her funding, and those corporations are expecting a return on the 'investment', just like the Saudis did from their Foundation 'donation'.

 

Bohemianwriter

(978 posts)
30. Politicans who are corrupted by corporate money...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:40 PM
Apr 2016

That was his words..
So in your own words, Hillary is a corporate whore just like the rest of her fellow republicans.

Not his, not mine, but thin skinned Hillary supporters who are more obsessed about words than context and issues...

It's so nice to see "progressives" attack other progressives over a word to defend the corporate chiefs who give the candidates money so they can screw all of us. Way to deflect and scream over non issues to avoid the real issues - issues that Hillary supporters never discuss.

It would be more fitting to call these politicians corporate pimps, and the rest of us, the voters involuntary jizz catchers.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
2. LOL
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:53 PM
Apr 2016

Meanwhile everyone is talking about how nasty Bernie was and how gracious Hillary was last night. Sore loser is not a good look for anyone.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
17. Clinton looked angry like a sire winner even in victory....She always looks angry
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:15 PM
Apr 2016

Bernie's angey too, but his anger is directed at causes of injustice.

Clinton has a simmering anger against anyone that challenges her. Not a good look.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
67. That's pure fantasy.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:18 PM
Apr 2016

She neither looked angry nor spoke in anger. The only boos from her supporters were for Trump and Cruz.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
13. Nothing could possibly be more negative...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:10 PM
Apr 2016

...than the implication that the only way to win office is with the permission of Big Money, or that Big Money has thereby bought access not available to us.

All the slights, real and imagined, are nearly insignificant next to the death of democracy. "Tone" is a red herring.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
31. '...the permission of Big Money"? Where do you get this stuff?
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:43 PM
Apr 2016

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

snowy owl

(2,145 posts)
70. You lay blame but never prove your accusations: what did he say that wasn't issue-oriented?
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:37 PM
Apr 2016

Her judgment and her ties to wall street are issues. But I'm listening...

 

CrowCityDem

(2,348 posts)
72. Here's two big ones:
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:18 AM
Apr 2016

He all but explicitly said Hillary is corrupt, and when pressed on it, he couldn't name a single example.

He called her unqualified based on his own misreading and lack of research.

He, at the last minute, baselessly accused her of campaign finance crimes, which he sent to the DNC, not the FEC. If he believed it, he would have reported it to the right people, and not fund-raised off it.

And I won't even hold what happened at his rallies against him this time.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
23. Sharp criticism of an opponent is going negative. Bernie was doing that.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:21 PM
Apr 2016

You can campaign by talking about how great your policies and credentials are, or you can campaign by talking about how bad your opponent is. There's a difference.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
25. Being negative about systemic problems is not the same as...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:27 PM
Apr 2016

focusing on personalized negatives.

Yes Bernie went after her as part of the system -- but he used kid gloves to avoid going into some of the stuff in her past he could have brought up.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
27. That is true, but he was pretty pointed in his criticism. He made a lot of negative points
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:33 PM
Apr 2016

about her specifically. He talked about her speeches, and her Wall Street ties, and her fossil fuel contributions (which turned out to not really be true), and so on. He even called her unqualified. And then the day before the primary, his campaign legally challenged her joint fundraising with the state parties, which I thought was particularly a bad thing to do because regardless of who wins, they're going to need down ballot Dems to get anything done.

That is negative campaigning. If he had just said that there is too much money in politics, and that Wall Street needs to be cracked down on and we need to stop burning so many fossil fuels, without reference to Hillary, that would have been "negative about systemic problems." But the thing is, Hillary basically agrees with him about that, she has those points in her stump speech too.

But Bernie went negative about Hillary specifically.

snowy owl

(2,145 posts)
71. Her surrogates made the "disqualify" meme - not Bernie. Bernie said "if....then she's not ...
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:40 PM
Apr 2016

There's a big if in there. Speeches, wall street ties, fossil fuel - all issues. You have no clue about her fundraising or where the money eventually goes. Not a clue. Google Sunlight Foundation "Clinton" and then try to find out where the money actually goes.

emulatorloo

(44,131 posts)
46. He said HRC wasn't qualified to be President. Weaver said she made a 'deal with the devil'
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:20 PM
Apr 2016

Those are personalized negatives.

IMHO Weaver and failed operative Tad Devine made a decision to go scorched earth negative in New York.

I think it was a poor decision. That is not Bernie nor what he represents. IMHO that strategery cost Bernie votes.

Let's not be in denial here. Devine and Weaver have pushed Bernie in a direction he normally would not go. They are politics as usual. Bernie's a man of principle.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
55. I'd like to hear more of his how to fix the system
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:47 PM
Apr 2016

instead of only saying it is broken. With more details than the standard, break up the banks, free college, free medical care and increased social security. I would love to have all those things, but I 'd like to know how we get there.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
59. I't was a different job, but I'd suggest you look at how he was as Burlington Mayor
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:05 PM
Apr 2016

He did get into the nits and bolts and wonky stuff, and very pragmatically gort a lot of the things done he talks about.

It's not president, but its the same executive skillset and leadership ability involved. And he got a lot of very specific things done. I think he could fo the same on a national level.

Also look at some of the bills and amkendments he has sponsored or cosponsored over the years. Again they are very detail and solution oriented, in terms of politicies.

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

 

fun n serious

(4,451 posts)
8. Wow!!!
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:02 PM
Apr 2016

Bernie called her unqualified, insinuated that she was in the TANK with big money interest even though he admits he has no proof, he spent 5 mil in NY.. He showed he had NO blue print on how to " break up big banks." Bernie used her as a punching bag in every single one of his rallies. The whole Pope fiasco... (huge turn off) Doubling down on his rhetoric about Hillary quid pro quo WITH NO EVIDENCE. Bernie surrogates accusing Bill Clinton of racism .. knowing full well Bernie also voted for the crime bill and NOT for the violence against women as he alleges.. proof in the video where he speaks of it. WAPO gave him something like 18 Pinocchio's because of the crap he spewed. He campaigned HARD and he LOST. Closed primaries are NOT Hillary's fault. Rules are rules. Get involved and change them!

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
14. I'm assuming this is an attempt to goad Clinton supporters into a hide.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:11 PM
Apr 2016

I flat out know you don't believe a word you typed.

Response to Ken Burch (Reply #40)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
49. Which still doesn't equate to calling her physically ugly.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:40 PM
Apr 2016

It was about tone and tactics.

I'd have said the same about a male candidate who campaigned in the same way.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
43. "was it worth the ugliness" Then look at your post. Hence, flabbergasted with your OP.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:57 PM
Apr 2016

The audacity.

Actor

(626 posts)
26. Both groups best get their shit together and quick.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:32 PM
Apr 2016

If Hillary is to be the nominee, then Bernie needs to do an about face and soon and urge his passionate supporters to do the same.

If it goes all the way to the convention, so be it.

But the ugliness best end on both sides because it is a long time to the convention.

 

anigbrowl

(13,889 posts)
33. I'm deeply touched by your concern
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:01 PM
Apr 2016
Was it worth spreading the lie that challenging corporate control of life is somehow white supremacist?


LOL, that's some grade-A bullshit right there. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a picture of Pope Francis looking sad. I bet you take the people in your personal life on some epic guilt trips.

Tarc

(10,476 posts)
34. "simply by making a positive case for the small number of progressive things in her program"
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:04 PM
Apr 2016

Hillary did do this, to the women voters, the Hispanic, the African-Americans, and others who have been disadvantaged by the system for years.

Just because she wasn't speaking to you doesn't mean that she wasn't speaking out about progressive ideas, bro.

DemonGoddess

(4,640 posts)
48. You're projecting
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:27 PM
Apr 2016

It was Sanders and his campaign that ran the negative smear campaign. As to the fact that New York has a closed primary, those are the rules that are in place.

emsimon33

(3,128 posts)
54. But that is the true Hillary Clinton
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:47 PM
Apr 2016

She did the same with Obama. This is one reason that so many people are so passionately against her. The Rovian playbook may work with Republicans and some "Democrats," but most only see it as condescension, of playing people as though they are too distracted or mindless to be truly informed.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
57. Sheesh - of course..2 person contest - if you aint first, your last.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:55 PM
Apr 2016

You don't gain power winning a "particpant" ribbon.

 

northernsouthern

(1,511 posts)
61. I think she has splintered the party.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:10 PM
Apr 2016

It needed it, the party is full of corrupt people. It was somewhat good timing, as long as the republicans split up too then we can have out party back.

Gothmog

(145,297 posts)
64. The Clinton campaign and others have been treating Sanders with kids gloves compared to the GOP
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:55 PM
Apr 2016

The concept that the Clinton campaign has been very negative on Sanders is simply false when you look at what Sanders would be subject to if he was the Democratic nominee. The lies listed above are sad and pale in comparison to what the GOP would throw at Sanders. The amusing complaints in the OP are really weak if you live in the real world and know what the GOP, the Kochs and Karl Rove will be able to throw at Sanders.

VOX had a good article on the potential lines of attack that Sanders would be exposed to if Sanders was the nominee. http://www.vox.com/2016/2/3/10903404/gop-campaign-against-sanders One of the more interesting observations in the VOX analysis is the fact that Sanders have been treated with kids gloves compared to what Sanders would face if he was the Democratic nominee. I strongly agree with the VOX's position that the so-called negative attacks against Sander have been mild just as I do not think that the so-called attacks in the OP are serious compared to what the GOP would throw at Sanders but I live in the real world and know how the GOP attack machine works. Form the article:

I have no interest in litigating any of these attacks here. Like any Democrat elected president in 2016, Sanders wouldn't be able to get much done, but he would block attempts to roll back Obama's accomplishments and have a chance to fill a few Supreme Court vacancies.

When Sanders supporters discuss these attacks, though, they do so in tones of barely contained outrage, as though it is simply disgusting what they have to put up with. Questioning the practical achievability of single-payer health care. Impugning the broad electoral appeal of socialism. Is nothing sacred?

But c'mon. This stuff is patty-cakes compared with the brutalization he would face at the hands of the right in a general election.

His supporters would need to recalibrate their umbrage-o-meters in a serious way.

The attacks that would be levied against Sanders by the Kochs, the RNC candidate and others in a general election contest would make the so-called attacks against Sanders look like patty-cakes. The GOP and Kochs are not known for being nice or honest and as the article notes there are a ton of good topics available for attack. Raising taxes is never a good campaign platform (Just ask President Mondale). The GOP would also raise the socialism and age issues if Sanders was the nominee.

Again, I agree with the VOX position that so far, Sanders has not been subject to negative attacks close to what the GOP would use against Sanders and the attacks against Sanders if he was the nominee would be brutal. I urge Sanders supporters to read the VOX article to start to get a feel for what real negative attacks would look like.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
69. That would be what the Kochs and Karl Rove
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:33 PM
Apr 2016

would throw at Sanders after they stop throwing money at him because he's a bad investment who can't derail Hillary after all.

Gothmog

(145,297 posts)
66. Are the Sanders supporters prepared for what the GOP and the Kochs will throw at Sanders?
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:08 PM
Apr 2016

According to this article, Sanders has been treated with kid gloves by the Clinton campaign to date. However the GOP will not be as kind to Sanders. This article from VOX has some good predictions as to how nasty the GOP and the Kochs will be http://www.vox.com/2016/2/3/10903404/gop-campaign-against-sanders

I'm not sure I have the requisite killer instinct to fully imagine how the GOP will play a Sanders campaign. But consider just this low-hanging fruit:

Sanders would be the oldest president ever to take office — older than John McCain, who faced serious questions about this in 2008.

Sanders is a socialist. "No, no," you explain, "it's democratic socialist, like in Denmark." I'm sure GOP attack ads will take that distinction into careful consideration.

Sanders explicitly wants to raise taxes, and not only on the rich.

That's just the obvious stuff. And he has barely been hit on any of it so far.

I have no real way of knowing whether Sanders and his advisers appreciate what's coming if he wins the nomination, or whether they have a serious plan to deal with it, something beyond hoping a political revolution will drown it out.

But at least based on my experience, the Bernie legions are not prepared. They seem convinced that the white working class would rally to the flag of democratic socialism. And they are in a state of perpetual umbrage that Sanders isn't receiving the respect he's due, that he's facing even mild attacks from Clinton's camp.

If they are aware that it's been patty-cakes so far, that much, much worse and more vicious attacks are inevitable, and that no one knows how Sanders might perform with a giant political machine working to define him as an unhinged leftist, they hide it well.

In the name of diverting some small percentage of the social media bile surely headed my way, let's be clear about a few things: This is not an argument against supporting Sanders. There's nothing dumber than making political decisions based on how the other side might react. (For one thing, that would have foreclosed supporting Obama, a black urbanite with a funny name, in 2008.)

But it is an argument that Sanders has gaping vulnerabilities that have not yet been exploited at all, so his followers should not yet feel sanguine about his ability to endure conservative attacks. Also they should get a thicker skin, quick.

The concept that the Sanders supporters think that the attacks by the Clinton campaign are scorched earth tactics is really amusing and sad. In the real world the so-called attacks listed in the OP would cause Karl Rove and the GOP to laugh

If the so-called attacks in the OP are so upsetting to the Sanders supporters, they would not survive the general election or the first round of attack ads by Karl Rove and the Kochs
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