2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHRC won NY, but was it worth the ugliness of the way she did it?
Was it worth the entrenchment of the lie that the social justice and economic justice movements have nothing in common?
Was it worth spreading the lie that challenging corporate control of life is somehow white supremacist?
Was it worth doubling down on the idea that idealists are deserving of no respect and dreams are a joke?
Was it worth driving away potentially millions of voters we could have brought into this party(not even necessarily by nominating Bernie, but by at least embracing his message and the movement who support it)?
Was it worth the damage done?
HRC probably could have won NY simply by making a positive case for the small number of progressive things in her program. That's how she should have campaigned. Not by privileging dismissiveness, not by creating divisions that never previously existed, not by having her surrogates falsely accuse Bernie of not caring about racism or POC.
Gomez163
(2,039 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And the money would have been thrown at a male candidates's car too.
Not everything is sexism.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... saying "call a spade a bloody shovel"?
C'mon, either you admit some things are inappropriate to say/do when a candidate is of a protected class, or all the brouhaha over code words in 2008 was nonsense. You have to admit that at least with that particular idiom, it's traced back FAR further than even the 400+ years Africans have been treated to horrific racial epithets.
There was far worse said in 2008, and I deplored it. But it's absolutely tasteless for a campaign to sponsor throwing dollar bills at a female candidate like they are a stripper after letting someone introduce their candidate with a speech including the word "whore".
It might not be sexist, but it's damn sure tasteless and desperate.
Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)If Hillary can't take it, she should get out of the kitchen. But the truth is that Hillary can give as good as she gets and is far stronger and smarter than her supporters.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... were for the Democratic Party.
I'm extremely disappointed in Jeff Weaver's behavior this week, particularly as evidenced here:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/04/19/sanders_campaigns_weaver_race_will_be_determined_by_superdelegates_not_pledged_delegates.html
Bernie either needs to get him in hand, or he's officially saying for the campaign he plans to go PUMA outright.
I feel bad for Bernie's supporters, but I think Jeff's who lost them the nomination. He's been going overboard for months now.
IamMab
(1,359 posts)If Bernie and his supporters "can't take it" maybe they should be the ones to get out of the kitchen.
Lose with some dignity, FFS.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)BEAUTIFUL....
&ebc=ANyPxKqpqEAIaSBl-GQO0B1QYWJ3A8oXvJ7HV0JhKwN8792_wPYHUpjct4mnmMKoNVRDjDKxk0t9xHgLYbX4Wz_VatzfEn8LyQ&nohtml5=False
&ebc=ANyPxKqpqEAIaSBl-GQO0B1QYWJ3A8oXvJ7HV0JhKwN8792_wPYHUpjct4mnmMKoNVRDjDKxk0t9xHgLYbX4Wz_VatzfEn8LyQ&nohtml5=False
moriah
(8,311 posts)If you don't give a rat's ass about Congress, at least.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts).But if the shoe fits....
You can't dispute the source of her funding, and those corporations are expecting a return on the 'investment', just like the Saudis did from their Foundation 'donation'.
Gomez163
(2,039 posts)Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)That was his words..
So in your own words, Hillary is a corporate whore just like the rest of her fellow republicans.
Not his, not mine, but thin skinned Hillary supporters who are more obsessed about words than context and issues...
It's so nice to see "progressives" attack other progressives over a word to defend the corporate chiefs who give the candidates money so they can screw all of us. Way to deflect and scream over non issues to avoid the real issues - issues that Hillary supporters never discuss.
It would be more fitting to call these politicians corporate pimps, and the rest of us, the voters involuntary jizz catchers.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)On Hillary's side it was beautiful!
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Meanwhile everyone is talking about how nasty Bernie was and how gracious Hillary was last night. Sore loser is not a good look for anyone.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Bernie's angey too, but his anger is directed at causes of injustice.
Clinton has a simmering anger against anyone that challenges her. Not a good look.
radical noodle
(8,003 posts)apcalc
(4,465 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)She neither looked angry nor spoke in anger. The only boos from her supporters were for Trump and Cruz.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)...than the implication that the only way to win office is with the permission of Big Money, or that Big Money has thereby bought access not available to us.
All the slights, real and imagined, are nearly insignificant next to the death of democracy. "Tone" is a red herring.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Orsino
(37,428 posts)snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Her judgment and her ties to wall street are issues. But I'm listening...
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)He all but explicitly said Hillary is corrupt, and when pressed on it, he couldn't name a single example.
He called her unqualified based on his own misreading and lack of research.
He, at the last minute, baselessly accused her of campaign finance crimes, which he sent to the DNC, not the FEC. If he believed it, he would have reported it to the right people, and not fund-raised off it.
And I won't even hold what happened at his rallies against him this time.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)You can campaign by talking about how great your policies and credentials are, or you can campaign by talking about how bad your opponent is. There's a difference.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)focusing on personalized negatives.
Yes Bernie went after her as part of the system -- but he used kid gloves to avoid going into some of the stuff in her past he could have brought up.
YouDig
(2,280 posts)about her specifically. He talked about her speeches, and her Wall Street ties, and her fossil fuel contributions (which turned out to not really be true), and so on. He even called her unqualified. And then the day before the primary, his campaign legally challenged her joint fundraising with the state parties, which I thought was particularly a bad thing to do because regardless of who wins, they're going to need down ballot Dems to get anything done.
That is negative campaigning. If he had just said that there is too much money in politics, and that Wall Street needs to be cracked down on and we need to stop burning so many fossil fuels, without reference to Hillary, that would have been "negative about systemic problems." But the thing is, Hillary basically agrees with him about that, she has those points in her stump speech too.
But Bernie went negative about Hillary specifically.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)There's a big if in there. Speeches, wall street ties, fossil fuel - all issues. You have no clue about her fundraising or where the money eventually goes. Not a clue. Google Sunlight Foundation "Clinton" and then try to find out where the money actually goes.
emulatorloo
(44,131 posts)Those are personalized negatives.
IMHO Weaver and failed operative Tad Devine made a decision to go scorched earth negative in New York.
I think it was a poor decision. That is not Bernie nor what he represents. IMHO that strategery cost Bernie votes.
Let's not be in denial here. Devine and Weaver have pushed Bernie in a direction he normally would not go. They are politics as usual. Bernie's a man of principle.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)instead of only saying it is broken. With more details than the standard, break up the banks, free college, free medical care and increased social security. I would love to have all those things, but I 'd like to know how we get there.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)He did get into the nits and bolts and wonky stuff, and very pragmatically gort a lot of the things done he talks about.
It's not president, but its the same executive skillset and leadership ability involved. And he got a lot of very specific things done. I think he could fo the same on a national level.
Also look at some of the bills and amkendments he has sponsored or cosponsored over the years. Again they are very detail and solution oriented, in terms of politicies.
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)Response to Ken Burch (Original post)
NCTraveler This message was self-deleted by its author.
fun n serious
(4,451 posts)Bernie called her unqualified, insinuated that she was in the TANK with big money interest even though he admits he has no proof, he spent 5 mil in NY.. He showed he had NO blue print on how to " break up big banks." Bernie used her as a punching bag in every single one of his rallies. The whole Pope fiasco... (huge turn off) Doubling down on his rhetoric about Hillary quid pro quo WITH NO EVIDENCE. Bernie surrogates accusing Bill Clinton of racism .. knowing full well Bernie also voted for the crime bill and NOT for the violence against women as he alleges.. proof in the video where he speaks of it. WAPO gave him something like 18 Pinocchio's because of the crap he spewed. He campaigned HARD and he LOST. Closed primaries are NOT Hillary's fault. Rules are rules. Get involved and change them!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)LexVegas
(6,067 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Posts hidden by Jury: 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=313074&sub=trans
You just wander around DU saying mean and nasty things. It's your schtick.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)This is going to come back to haunt ALL of us.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I flat out know you don't believe a word you typed.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Response to Ken Burch (Reply #40)
Post removed
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It was about tone and tactics.
I'd have said the same about a male candidate who campaigned in the same way.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)The audacity.
knixphan
(4,442 posts)Actor
(626 posts)If Hillary is to be the nominee, then Bernie needs to do an about face and soon and urge his passionate supporters to do the same.
If it goes all the way to the convention, so be it.
But the ugliness best end on both sides because it is a long time to the convention.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)The OP is quite the hyperbolic performance! !
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)Was it worth spreading the lie that challenging corporate control of life is somehow white supremacist?
LOL, that's some grade-A bullshit right there. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a picture of Pope Francis looking sad. I bet you take the people in your personal life on some epic guilt trips.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)Hillary did do this, to the women voters, the Hispanic, the African-Americans, and others who have been disadvantaged by the system for years.
Just because she wasn't speaking to you doesn't mean that she wasn't speaking out about progressive ideas, bro.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)Nope, that was certainly just a sound bite of hers, sis!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Bill USA
(6,436 posts)DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)It was Sanders and his campaign that ran the negative smear campaign. As to the fact that New York has a closed primary, those are the rules that are in place.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)emsimon33
(3,128 posts)She did the same with Obama. This is one reason that so many people are so passionately against her. The Rovian playbook may work with Republicans and some "Democrats," but most only see it as condescension, of playing people as though they are too distracted or mindless to be truly informed.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)You don't gain power winning a "particpant" ribbon.
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)It needed it, the party is full of corrupt people. It was somewhat good timing, as long as the republicans split up too then we can have out party back.
Gothmog
(145,297 posts)The concept that the Clinton campaign has been very negative on Sanders is simply false when you look at what Sanders would be subject to if he was the Democratic nominee. The lies listed above are sad and pale in comparison to what the GOP would throw at Sanders. The amusing complaints in the OP are really weak if you live in the real world and know what the GOP, the Kochs and Karl Rove will be able to throw at Sanders.
VOX had a good article on the potential lines of attack that Sanders would be exposed to if Sanders was the nominee. http://www.vox.com/2016/2/3/10903404/gop-campaign-against-sanders One of the more interesting observations in the VOX analysis is the fact that Sanders have been treated with kids gloves compared to what Sanders would face if he was the Democratic nominee. I strongly agree with the VOX's position that the so-called negative attacks against Sander have been mild just as I do not think that the so-called attacks in the OP are serious compared to what the GOP would throw at Sanders but I live in the real world and know how the GOP attack machine works. Form the article:
When Sanders supporters discuss these attacks, though, they do so in tones of barely contained outrage, as though it is simply disgusting what they have to put up with. Questioning the practical achievability of single-payer health care. Impugning the broad electoral appeal of socialism. Is nothing sacred?
But c'mon. This stuff is patty-cakes compared with the brutalization he would face at the hands of the right in a general election.
His supporters would need to recalibrate their umbrage-o-meters in a serious way.
The attacks that would be levied against Sanders by the Kochs, the RNC candidate and others in a general election contest would make the so-called attacks against Sanders look like patty-cakes. The GOP and Kochs are not known for being nice or honest and as the article notes there are a ton of good topics available for attack. Raising taxes is never a good campaign platform (Just ask President Mondale). The GOP would also raise the socialism and age issues if Sanders was the nominee.
Again, I agree with the VOX position that so far, Sanders has not been subject to negative attacks close to what the GOP would use against Sanders and the attacks against Sanders if he was the nominee would be brutal. I urge Sanders supporters to read the VOX article to start to get a feel for what real negative attacks would look like.
okasha
(11,573 posts)would throw at Sanders after they stop throwing money at him because he's a bad investment who can't derail Hillary after all.
Gothmog
(145,297 posts)According to this article, Sanders has been treated with kid gloves by the Clinton campaign to date. However the GOP will not be as kind to Sanders. This article from VOX has some good predictions as to how nasty the GOP and the Kochs will be http://www.vox.com/2016/2/3/10903404/gop-campaign-against-sanders
Sanders would be the oldest president ever to take office older than John McCain, who faced serious questions about this in 2008.
Sanders is a socialist. "No, no," you explain, "it's democratic socialist, like in Denmark." I'm sure GOP attack ads will take that distinction into careful consideration.
Sanders explicitly wants to raise taxes, and not only on the rich.
That's just the obvious stuff. And he has barely been hit on any of it so far.
I have no real way of knowing whether Sanders and his advisers appreciate what's coming if he wins the nomination, or whether they have a serious plan to deal with it, something beyond hoping a political revolution will drown it out.
But at least based on my experience, the Bernie legions are not prepared. They seem convinced that the white working class would rally to the flag of democratic socialism. And they are in a state of perpetual umbrage that Sanders isn't receiving the respect he's due, that he's facing even mild attacks from Clinton's camp.
If they are aware that it's been patty-cakes so far, that much, much worse and more vicious attacks are inevitable, and that no one knows how Sanders might perform with a giant political machine working to define him as an unhinged leftist, they hide it well.
In the name of diverting some small percentage of the social media bile surely headed my way, let's be clear about a few things: This is not an argument against supporting Sanders. There's nothing dumber than making political decisions based on how the other side might react. (For one thing, that would have foreclosed supporting Obama, a black urbanite with a funny name, in 2008.)
But it is an argument that Sanders has gaping vulnerabilities that have not yet been exploited at all, so his followers should not yet feel sanguine about his ability to endure conservative attacks. Also they should get a thicker skin, quick.
The concept that the Sanders supporters think that the attacks by the Clinton campaign are scorched earth tactics is really amusing and sad. In the real world the so-called attacks listed in the OP would cause Karl Rove and the GOP to laugh
If the so-called attacks in the OP are so upsetting to the Sanders supporters, they would not survive the general election or the first round of attack ads by Karl Rove and the Kochs