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YouDig

(2,280 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:35 PM Apr 2016

What I would say to people who are thinking about not voting for Hillary in November.

I am a Hillary supporter but I get the frustration. Bernie came very close, and if he got the nomination, there's a decent chance he would have gotten elected president. That would have made him the most progressive president ever. He would be pushing for Single Payer and free universities and other good things that are available in other wealthy countries but that we don't have in the US. Just being able to get so many ideas of his into the mainstream is already a huge (yuge!) accomplishment.

Why am I a Hillary supporter if I believe in those things? I think you'd find that a lot of us do. I have concerns about Bernie's holding up to GOP attacks, and I also think none of his agenda would get through congress, and Hillary can get more done. I talked to a friend yesterday who told me he voted for Hillary but felt like he sold out. I get it. Yeah, Bernie's great, but in the slugfest that is both getting elected and also governing with a GOP congress, it's not just about having the right ideals. The next four years, with any Dem president, are going to be "incremental" either way.

Now is when I say some things that might not be popular, but I think are true. First, the status quo really isn't that bad. It could be a lot better, but it could also be a lot worse. And if Trump or Cruz get elected it will be a lot worse. Second, voting out of fear or for the "lesser of two evils" is a fine reason to vote. There shouldn't be a stigma against it. If there are two possible outcomes (and come November there will only be two), then you assess the implications of each of them, and pick the better one, or the one that is not worse, which is the same.

One more thing. The theory that if Trump wins then four years later there will be a big backlash and progressives will take over is not a good theory. Politics is way too unpredictable for this sort of gambit. In a logical, predictable world Trump would never be elected in the first place (or any other Republican).

The only thing that we can reliably say about a future with a GOP president is that it will be worse than with a Dem president. Whatever happens in 4, 8 or more years, if a GOP has been president, we progressives will be further behind than we are now, and it will be more difficult to get where we want to go. There will be justices in the court that we will have to wait to replace. The taxes on the wealthy will be lower than they are now, and even bringing them back to current levels will require a battle. Environmental regulations will be gutted, and again getting back to where we are now will require a fight. And so on.

I may sound like a downer, but I do believe that in the long run we will accomplish our progressive goals. Demographics favor us, millenials are more progressive, and Bernie's campaign has opened a lot of eyes. And there is no doubt in my mind that we will get there sooner with Hillary in office for the next 4-8 years than with any of the Republicans.

So, yes, by all means, keep up the fight for progressive goals. But voting for a flawed candidate, even one you consider a "lesser of two evils" candidate, is still much better than not voting.

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peacebird

(14,195 posts)
1. Hillary Would take the country further right than it already is. She is not the solution, she is the
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:46 PM
Apr 2016

Status quo.

Between her disastrous efforts in Hnduras and Syria, as well as her nightmare speech to AIPAC and her saber rattling on Iran we know her to be a neocon warhawk.

With her robust support for fracking around the world we know she is not serious about the threat of climate change. Certainly not serious enough to do anything that would threaten the massive profits of oil& gas industries.

Her refusal to support a ban on cluster bombs is also extremely troubling. As is her history of being on the wrong side of hiatory on DOMA, GLBT rights, gay marriage. And the IWR.

She lacks the courage to LEAD, to take the difficult but correect stand on challenging issues. She waits until the majority support it, then she conveniently "evolves".

We do not have the luxury of time to give Hillary her "turn". This election is too important.

And I will vote, just not for Hillary.

YouDig

(2,280 posts)
4. Well, yeah, she basically is status quo: a center-left president and a GOP congress.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:54 PM
Apr 2016

Maybe a Dem Senate, but a GOP House for sure. That means slow progress, like what Obama has done for the last 5 years.

Is that not far better than the alternative, which is a GOP President with a GOP Congress? Particularly given that the GOP president is going to be either Trump or Cruz. You don't think the status quo is better than that?

We can go down the issues that you bring up, which are important issues. She is hawkish for a Dem, but nothing compared to the GOP, particularly Cruz or Trump. Cruz basically wants a Holy War against Islam and Trump wants torture, nukes, and targeted assassination of children. Neither Trump or Cruz or hardly anyone in the GOP even believes in climate change. And GLBT rights, it's not even close.

I'm saying, if you have a choice between Hillary and Trump, you go for Hillary. Easily.

peacebird

(14,195 posts)
6. Respectfully disagree. but the nomination has not been won yet so perhaps we won't have such
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:04 PM
Apr 2016

a flawed candidate atop the ticket in the general....

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,732 posts)
3. I will not be voting for Hillary in November.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:52 PM
Apr 2016

I will be voting against Trump (or whatever other orc the GOP might select), and for as many downticket progressives as possible. I don't like Hillary and I especially don't like what she stands for, but I will regard her election as a place-holder, preferably only four years' worth, to keep the horror show that the GOP has become out of power and provide some time to put together a genuine progressive movement that can win elections at all levels. I regard Donald Trump as an existential threat; Hillary is just more of the same useless corporatist crap. We can survive a few more years of that but God only knows what sort of disaster the election of Trump might cause.

There are some who believe a Trump presidency would be so awful that it would wake people up and bring about a progressive revolution. Maybe that would happen, but I'm more inclined to believe that, instead of uniting with progressives to do something about the banksters and the corrupt politicians of both parties, too many people would blame their declining fortunes on Trump's scapegoats - immigrants, Muslims, PoC, liberals, etc. - and the hate that's been bubbling beneath the surface would explode and make things infinitely worse for a lot of people. I don't think I want to take that chance.

Others may disagree. That's fine. Everyone should vote as they wish. In my case, it will be very, very difficult for me to muster any kind of enthusiasm for Hillary, and she won't get any of my money (she has plenty). I can be pretty enthusiastic about crushing Trump like a bug, though.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
5. I and a friend are working in the County Dem. committee
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:04 PM
Apr 2016

and I reminded her that if we did not get Bernie nominated we would be setting at the fair booth working for Hillary. She said - no we would not - we would be working for the down ticket and we did not have to say anything about Hillary.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
7. If we keep voting for DINOs we will never achieve progressive or liberal goals.
Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:22 PM
Apr 2016

That is a fallacy. It is what we are supposed to hope for, and be pacified by, but the Third Way has such a tight hold on the DNC that liberals and progressives are just not supported. Debbie DINO has actually let a Republican run unopposed, here in Florida, rather than support a liberal. And openly supported her GOP cronies against actual Democrats. She decides who to back and who to ignore.

Just no. And, bye, because I have pledged to ignore loyalty oaths, no matter how wordy.

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