I'm looking for perspective from voters. There is a very big difference between an image presented by the campaign and an image perceived by voters.

What do you find compelling that you believe I (and others) would as well?

all the things described on her issues page. I believe she is a very hard worker for progressive policies. I believe she is much better at working than at campaigning.

At what point should I feel that you are being disingenuous, facetious, or willfully ignorant?

Platitudes are nice and all, but they don't explain much. What gives you confidence in her?

I have tons of confidence in Sanders because he's been saying the same thing for decades and he's been right about important issues. C-Span is full of proof of that.

What's the equivalent for you and your support of Hillary? I frankly don't see it, so I'm asking to get pointed in the right direction.

isn't the same as fighting and helping win progressive battles. I feel Clinton has an excellent track record of helping score progressive victories. She plays hardball and that's what we need at this point in history. To get pointed in the right direction check her liberal record in the Senate. She consistently scored among the most liberal members of the Senate.

she been successful in passing or being an important part of as Senator. All I remember is the 1993 Health care fiasco.

that has kept the US healthcare system private and business friendly and ultra-profitable for 20 years, despite all odds, allowing the successful US system to be held up to developing countries as a model for their privatization!

Neoliberalism has worked a similar magic for higher education, working towards a fully profitable, privatized future, and last year the most populous and poorest country in the world, a place where they still have a caste system, signed away their constitutional right to education for the privilege of joining the club.

In exchange they will get access to the gloriously successful US education market. and their teachers and academics will help us solve our labor shortage, a 20 year old crisis!

And of course, she beeh helping solve the IT labor crisis too partnering with foreign firms like Tata and Infosys to bring competition to the protectionist US IT market.

Disingenuous, facetious, and willfully ignorant are the hallmarks of that website. I often compare it to the underside of bridges in Central Park, New York City where muggers lurk in wait. I see Reddit and I run.

I read the Ask Me Anything section fairly frequently. I like a lot of younger people & feel bad that I made that earlier comment. I'm glad for this thread because the original poster has been cool about listening to others here and I know the feeling when you just want to hear some straight answers.

I just couldn't deal.

I genuinely cannot see anything that Hillary Clinton would do for me that Bernie Sanders would not.

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, though.

Liberal Supreme Court justices, Protecting and advancing women's rights in all ways, funding planned parenthood, maintaining and protecting the ACA, Medicare, Social Security, sound and thoughtful foreign policy that will keep us safe , economic and business policies that will lift the lower and middle class, empathy and compassion for the disadvantaged ,ideas backed up by careful consideration and planning, teambuilding to get things done, someone who will work 24-7 , someone respected by both parties

I was a little afraid of opening this thread again, as I was expecting more 'why why why??'

That's a good list.

with the partial birth abortion thing, and "team building to get things done" sounds an awful lot like the negotiating style Obama used in his first term in office.

As for everything else, that's great--but it's no more than Bernie Sanders would do in office.

From a Bernie supporter's POV, Hillary has good stands on many issues, but very possibly none where Bernie's stand isn't equivalently good or better. Guns *maybe*.

So then I think, for people who like Bernie on the issues, the Hillary advantages come in areas other than issues. For example,

* I think she's probably smarter than Bernie.

* There is some benefit to the country in finally having a woman president. All else being equal--or even all else being "good enough"--it represents a breakthrough of significance.

* Statistically, she is more likely to live through a pair of 4 year terms.


Let's see what others come up with...

Not sure what else.

choice.

I'm waiting to see what comes up too....

Trump

Cruz

Stripping away the comparative arguments, what is left:

- Hillary is a masterful politician. She is the most powerful and influential woman in the US, and has risen steadily through the ranks of an overwhelmingly male establishment despite its incessant attacks. Her story is an inspiration.
- She has been unfairly and often brutally maligned for decades, and I tend to have sympathy and affection for people who are bullied.
- She understands the rough and tumble of politics, and will not expect ethics and idealism to prevail, but will play hardball politics. Like her husband, she will win some fights and lose some fights, but she will certainly bruise her opponents. I think that's why she has a lot of union support. There is something very blue collar about her methods that I admire.
- She has a very good record on social issues, and her record makes her a liberal by most measures.
- She has won the support of many people I respect, including people who helped change our country for the better in terms of civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights; she has the support of many groups and unions that I respect; she has the support of many of the mothers of those whose unarmed children were killed by police. I trust these people, and that influences my decision.
- She obviously has great experience, and has connections to the levers of power throughout the US, which means she might be able to get quite a bit done.
- I believe that the election of a woman to the presidency would be very meaningful to young girls who grow up in a society where women are still quite scarce in leadership roles. I know that Obama's victory was such a happy moment for so many people of color in our country, and anyone who remembers that knows how moving it was. I believe a Hillary victory would be an incredibly happy moment for women and girls, even for those who support other candidates.

As a gay man, I have a special affinity and a good knowledge of gay history. I think the way the Clintons handled that issue are a good example of how they operate.

Bill Clinton did a lot of good things for gays -- granted asylum to oppressed gays, raised gay awareness in his state of the union address, barred government discrimination against gays in federal contracts, appointed scores of openly gay people to government positions, and dramatically increased funding on AIDS research and education. But, his aggressive push in gay rights met a backlash when he tried to let gays into the military. Instead he was forced by the Democratic chief of the Senate Defense Committee, Sam Nunn, to implement Don't Ask/Don't Tell or else the Congress would pass legislation outlawing gays from the military. Then the right struck back even harder getting states to pass amendments that outlawed gay marriage and finally introducing DOMA, approving it by vetoproof margins 5 weeks before the election.

Rather than fight it, Clinton chose to use that to embellish his conservative credentials for the upcoming election and to be able to more effectively negotiate with Congress. So, the Clintons got a lot of good things done, and also did some bad things, but they play things in a very shrewd and calculated way. They are excellent politicians, not moral leaders by any means. Obama has been a very principled leader and that has made it difficult for him to get things done; I think Bernie would run into the same difficulty. The Clintons will play ball and horsetrade.

Overall, Bill Clinton did a good job and the respect he and his wife command among many minorities shows that, but to accomplish the good things, he had to do some bad things as well. If Hillary gets elected and Sanders can co-opt the Trump movement, I think she could get a lot done, and it will be mostly liberal.

Hillary won't inspire people the way Sanders has, but she does inspire a lot of women and feminists who see how through incredible toughness she overcame a fierce male establishment that has been demeaning her since the early 1990s.

The rest of us will vote and GOTV. Never mind.

Not at all.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Instead of asking Hillary's supporters to stroke your ego, woo and court you, or bemoaning your indecisiveness and admitting that you haven't been paying much attention over the last year, try Google. It works and better yet, you won't waste everyone elso time.

...simply ask her most ardent supporters, who are right here on DU - WITH THE OP!!

Look at the replies. It's a ruse where the seemingly wide-eyed OP plays the roll of a pollyanna and tongue in cheek wants to know something that has been asked and answered ad infinitum in this forum. These repetitive vanity games seem to amuse the Bernie folks, and yes, that is a complete waste of time.

If the Bernie camp can't bring themselves to vote for any other candidate then hold dear to your cherished principles until the bitter end when your immutable ideological purity is swept into the dustbin of history.

... or move their responses to some other thread?

Did you ignore the Bernie supporter dissing Hillary and her supporters?

Or is that simply a blind spot you have?

I declined, of course, because the request didn't make any sense to me. I'm hoping for a more detailed explanation, even now.

...but I was on this jury:

Because she'll be the most liberal President we've ever had and she's pragmatic enough to make a huge positive difference.

Hopefully that will help convince you to support her if she does win the nomination. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/04/21/1518146/-Some-thoughts-on-Hillary-Clinton-from-a-Bernie-Supporter

Thank you.

Avoid newspapers, tv shows, or websites that are heavily biased toward a candidate. Find the ones that are trying to be objective and compare what they are saying, and try to sort out the truth with that information.

It is helpful to hear from Hillary supporters what it is about her that moves them, I am finding it hard to once again have to vote aginest someone it felt so good to vote "for"a candidate in 2008. I have decided to never again use my vote to stop someone that I dislike, I turn 64 next month and I want to vote FOR someone, this has been helpful. Right now I can easily vote "for" Bernie I have so many concernes about Hillary that right now it would be hard for me to vote "for"her. The people who have shared there hart felt reasons that the support her on this thread have been helpful the sniping and dissing not so much. Once again thank you for raising this question in a careful way.

Personally, I think she will wipe any of the Republicans off the debate stage -- because she is highly intelligent.

You'll be voting for expanding the ACA, protecting the provisions that come into effect that will allow Colorado to pilot single payer, if their ballot initiative goes through.

You'll be voting to protect human rights -- of all stripes.

You'll be voting for cannabis to finally be made Schedule II so the states and doctors afraid of passing medical MJ will no longer fear losing their DEA licenses and support state regulation.

You'll be voting to continue an eight year legacy of progress that is not done.

I can understand why you need to be convinced. Those that are not understand why they will be voting for Hillary.

thanks to your candidate's warhawk nature. I mean, looking at her foreign policy track record? She's a disaster waiting to happen.

Nothing to be ashamed of I guess.

What the fuck gives you the right to put words in my mouth? Or are you incapable of formulating an argument for her foreign policy disasters, deciding to be a keyboard commando like the rest of your ilk?

you will pick the best one that meets your needs. If you need convincing to vote for Hillary then that means you are willing to settle for Trump.

Hillary or Trump - warts and all. The only choice you really have.

Oh wait, she's not the Empress Regent.

the general election, it's because the Republican will be much worse.

She has been an advocate for women and children around the world for years.

She is a social liberal albeit not always on the bleeding edge: but most of our society and most of the democratic party needed to grow up to support LGBTQ rights so I can't fault her for being 'normal'.

She makes every attempt to have an actionable reasonable approach to solving problems.

In spite of being the object of deceitful attacks for 25 years, she is still struggling to make a difference in the world.

She refused to be content with a political wife's cooking baking role.

At a time when a woman's role was defined to be very narrow, she challenged the status quo...and she continues to challenge the status quo.

She tried to bring us universal healthcare decades ago. Yes, she failed. Some people complain that she failed because she wasn't willing to compromise...so she learned to compromise.

I found her choosing to stay married while suffering her straying husband admirable: but I believe until death due us part.

I support her gun control positions and despise the currying to the NRA seen in other candidates. More people are murdered each year in the US through gun violence then all of our military losses in both Afghanistan and Iraq for the last decade plus.

I don't believe the smears about her being bought by money's received from her speeches. I've been employed in the financial industry for more years than I like to admit..and in spite of received $2million dollars over that time in salaries, I am not even slightly disposed to do my employers bidding.

I understand that international trade is good overall. In particular it has been very good for women. Women in China, India, Singapore etc are able to bring home paychecks which means that they are no longer considered worthless in their social order. It means that women are no longer forced to marry. It has decreased poverty globally.

I am also a long time supporter of unions. But I don't believe the way to support American workers is to eliminate international trade or add tariffs or start a trade war. I strongly believe that we need to change how our governments do business. They are the largest purchasers on the globe. I believe every single state and federal expenditure should be made with the explicit goal of supporting native businesses and services.

I"m not in the 1%. I'm from an immigrant family. I've been on food stamps. I paid off my own student loans since there was no one in any position to help me. I support my mom, my family, and help my two grown millenial children with their expenses.

I have learned DIY because I've always had to DIY...but I don't find that a negative. I believe everything you learn is a benefit to you.

I volunteer in my local community and have done so for almost 20 years. I am absolutely the opposite of the selfish person that the Bernie supporters on this site claim that Hillary supporters are.

I am well read, well educated, do not watch any television news or talk shows so I am not brainwashed.

I am anti-war, anti-death penalty. The only political party I have actually registered as for more than one month was the Green Party. So I too am far left of the democratic party.

I do not despise people for making different decisions than I do. My father in law is very much a liberal but he supported both the Afghanistan war and the Iraq war. It didn't make him a demon.

I'm still supporting Bernie, but when November comes, I will be voting FOR the 80% of Clinton I approve of, not AGAINST the 100% of Trump that I fear

Link?

Seriously, I need a link to support that.

to it but I believe I read it in either The New York Times or The Guardian. You might also check Politifact. It doesn't surprise me because the republican candidates usually rate 'pants on fire' lying, and Hillary has been a lot more measured about what can be accomplished in the next four years than Bernie. I'm not trying to put down Bernie, I believe very much in his policy proposals. But Hillary has stuck very close to the facts during this election. Again, sorry for no immediate link, but I hope I've at least pointed you in a better direction at finding the links. Maybe someone else reading here will have a link handy or find it and post it here.

Bernie Sanders has never felt the burn of PolitiFact’s Pants On Fire rating

http://www.politifact.com/california/article/2016/apr/19/bernie-sanders-has-never-felt-burn-politifacts-pan/

Also, I've personally found errors in their ratings for Sanders.

that backs up your point that there is no link?

And you've personally found errors in their ratings for Sanders?

What are those errors?

Link?

The chart compares "percent of statements that were true or false"... but that is entirely meaningless once you think about exactly what statements they are using to measure that.

In reality, the percentages don't matter, because the percentage figure only tells you what percentage of potentially questionable statements were true or false. Things that are clearly true do not have to be analyzed and rated. So if you make fewer questionable statements to begin with--i.e. the vast majority of them are considered true right off the bat, without controversy--then the "percent of lies" figure ends up being way off because the unquestionably true statements aren't counted in the percentage at all!

So all that matters is the absolute number. If you go to PoltiFact and look at the absolute numbers, you'll see that Hillary has given FAR more false statements than Bernie has.

I wish Politifact would clear that up. Their charts are wrongly used to "prove" this honesty point all the time.

It probably is fair then to use percentages since no two people have been in the public eye for the same amount of time.

They don't count any statements that are undisputedly true. You have to make a somewhat questionable statement for them to even look into it.

But my point stands too, Hillary has quotes analyzed back to 2005, Bernie 2009.

I don't watch television news or talk shows either. I love reading history books, and read a lot online too (I'm a speed reader). I'm a democratic socialist and many times have voted for green or democratic socialist candidates in local elections. Again, thanks for your excellent post.

don't believe the smears about her being bought by money's received from her speeches. I've been employed in the financial industry for more years than I like to admit..and in spite of received $2million dollars over that time in salaries, I am not even slightly disposed to do my employers bidding.


Did they ever pay you 225 000 dollars for holding a speech to them and then run for office later with large donations from them?

If not, your lack of loyalty is perfectly understandable.

Remember, you made 2 mill. she made 150 mill in less than five years for people who she allegdedly told to "cut it out" during her cushy senator seat in one of the richest states in the union. A state she had absolutely no ties to or any reason to represent as senator other than political aspirations for something bigger, and be closer to the gravy train.

Give me the person who thinks that 150 mill, for a few speeches and huge donations from the same source buys a lot of goodwill, and I will give you the descendant of the first follower of organized religion - the first sucker....

yes, it was the Clinton foundation but the clinton foundation is a well rated charity.
.
I"m sorry if you would sell your soul for money, I on the other hand would not.
No matter how much money was involved.
The fact that you think other people are so corruptible speaks more of your character, then it speaks about her character.

it is not an evaluation of her statements.

After decades of being smeared by the GOP and months of being smeared by Sanders.

and make your own decision.

Sid

I think that is the best answer. If we all drank the drink and unified at once perhaps Hillary would win, and we would get 8 more years of this. May studies have show for some it has been better than for others. So it is a win for them. As for war and all off the other negatives, you just need to not have those as priorities. I think that is how it works out, most of the HRC supporters here seem unconcerned about any of the Bernie supporters issues. So I think we would be the ones stuck taking the hard pill, I don't know if I could be ok with that.

have deemed it be so! Any other questions?

She's not going to destroy the economy like Bush did. No, it wouldn't be a great progressive revolution, but if you care about progressive issues at all we need to be sure to beat the republican nominee because the supreme court is at stake. And all of the corporate money and establishment ties that she's criticized for mean that she actually has the power to win. No, it's not the greatest situation but if you were alive in 2000 you've seen what happens when we lose.

Plus I think it's time for the first woman president, and I would rather it be a democrat than a republican. The only other option we hear about is Elizabeth Warren who progressives mysteriously love despite the fact that she was actually a registered republican fairly recently!

I also think that the nature of the Clintons' egos will ensure that she will fight to have some kind of major progressive legacy to leave behind. Considering how Bill's presidency ended, and the fact that she failed at universal healthcare before, I'm confident that she's going to push for some kind of big ACA type of achievement.

I also hope that Clinton will incorporate some of Bernie's ideas into her policies to solidify a more progressive agenda. He has a great opportunity to see some of his best plans actually put into effect, that is if he does't burn all his bridges behind him and leave a bitter trail of scorched earth in his wake.

Here is an analysis of how it will effect developed country workers as well as the countries in the developing world that will be supplying the workers.


http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=1336427&fileOId=1646753

See also:

http://www.cuts-geneva.org/pacteac/images/Documents/EAC%20Forum/Forum17/EAC%20Geneva%20Forum-%20WTO%20Note%2017.pdf

for the developing world perspective.

At least, by all accounts, that appears to be their best argument. When her back's against the wall, the Clinton SOP of triangulation always seems to come through.

proof that you alone determine. You've read the material for both candidates and get to vote for whom you want. Nobody is begrudging you that. What is setting off people is your attitude that you want them to dance for you and prove to your private standard something that is pretty clearly not provable to your private standard. This is called trolling. Just stop it.

You know the stats, yeah? Republicans win when Dems don't vote; if is comes down to it, is that your goal?

and I will probably puke outside the voting booth but, whatever gets your rocks off, dude.

Maybe a bit of editing is needed, yeah?

Casting against the worse candidate if I can't vote for the best candidate makes sense to me.