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It comes down to this. (Original Post) grasswire Apr 2016 OP
good luck getting through to some supporters.....n/t pantsonfire Apr 2016 #1
....and granddaughters! peace13 Apr 2016 #2
yes, true dat nt grasswire Apr 2016 #4
Just a small correction...women serve also. all american girl Apr 2016 #3
this is why I wrote it the way I did grasswire Apr 2016 #5
With foreign policy blunders resulting in spilled blood across five sovereign nations VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #46
Most Admired Woman in World, Record 20th Time Gallup, December 2015 stonecutter357 Apr 2016 #6
tell it to the Iraqis. grasswire Apr 2016 #7
I have Iraqis for neighbors and they love her. stonecutter357 Apr 2016 #8
sure nt grasswire Apr 2016 #11
Bernie is a pacifist ? stonecutter357 Apr 2016 #12
Bernie will not send American troops to fight wars of aggression or empire. grasswire Apr 2016 #13
Dead Iraqis weren't polled Martin Eden Apr 2016 #42
Most Admired Woman in World, Record 20th Time Gallup, December 2015 stonecutter357 Apr 2016 #55
Reviled more than admired where it counts Martin Eden Apr 2016 #59
Ihave felt for a number of years taht the only way to stop constant war is to install a hollysmom Apr 2016 #9
you are not alone in that thought grasswire Apr 2016 #10
I wholeheartedly believe in mandatory conscription for at least four years. VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #47
If the USA reinstates the military draft it will be the result of MORE WAR and not enough volunteers Martin Eden Apr 2016 #60
It's one thing to claim being misled into Iraq but Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2016 #14
AND... grasswire Apr 2016 #16
After Iraq, after Libya, she pushes to do the same in Syria. stillwaiting Apr 2016 #51
8 Grandsons, 1 Granddaughter... imari362 Apr 2016 #15
wow, eight grandsons! grasswire Apr 2016 #18
Thanks imari362 Apr 2016 #20
Just a point here.... Adrahil Apr 2016 #17
read above grasswire Apr 2016 #19
It's my belief that. imari362 Apr 2016 #28
So because it's an all-volunteer military a President gets to spend their lives as she/he sees fit? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2016 #31
Nice straw man. I never said that. Adrahil Apr 2016 #32
Perhaps you can put your comments about an all-volunteer military into context. Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2016 #40
How about what you're saying now? Joob Apr 2016 #48
As a young veteran, these wars are for corporations, not America. Joob Apr 2016 #21
thank you grasswire Apr 2016 #24
Thank you for posting this, Joob. democrank Apr 2016 #30
Thank you for your support and thanks for your help Joob Apr 2016 #50
They won't look through, man. They're too busy fiddling around what they think is a bonfire VulgarPoet Apr 2016 #49
As I said, I am 100% confident there will be no draft. Adrahil Apr 2016 #22
LOL grasswire Apr 2016 #25
Yes, if you think she is going to reinstate the draft. NT Adrahil Apr 2016 #26
do you have grandchildren? nt grasswire Apr 2016 #29
Not yet. I have a daughter, aged 14. Adrahil Apr 2016 #34
so you think it's okay for other people's children and grandchildren.. grasswire Apr 2016 #62
If I think the interventionist aggression is wrong-headed My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #36
I don't disagree with that. Adrahil Apr 2016 #38
Well then I would have to ask all the people My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #39
The pro-Iraq War vote that so many Democrats vehemently opposed democrank Apr 2016 #23
to say nothing of the loss of our treasure! grasswire Apr 2016 #27
Any nonchalant attitude toward that Iraq War vote makes me sick democrank Apr 2016 #35
Hillary Clinton lost my vote in October 2002 Martin Eden Apr 2016 #61
That is one of the issues I base my (unalterable) support for Bernie on. djean111 Apr 2016 #33
And cut your Social Security because corporate subsides are more important Chasstev365 Apr 2016 #37
Yes also think long and hard about where the wealth flows during these wars. It certainly flows berniepdx420 Apr 2016 #41
Drive that reality HOME! pdsimdars Apr 2016 #43
Thanks grasswire. I worry about this same thing. Paper Roses Apr 2016 #44
I am not willing to risk gun loving Bernie getting my kids killed over here. nt LexVegas Apr 2016 #45
And how is that supposed to work? Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2016 #53
My objections to Hillary have little to do with Bernie Sanders. gordianot Apr 2016 #52
Tell me - are you an isolationist? brooklynite Apr 2016 #54
We don't have to deal in theoreticals My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #56
The lone fact that the entire electorate My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #57
I don't see it that way. grasswire Apr 2016 #63
I hope you are right My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #64
:-) grasswire Apr 2016 #65
No nt riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #58
yes, so much needless bloodshed, for other people's children and grandchildren amborin Apr 2016 #66
Grandparents clearly don't believe that... SidDithers Apr 2016 #67
NYT weighs in. grasswire Apr 2016 #68

all american girl

(1,788 posts)
3. Just a small correction...women serve also.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:18 AM
Apr 2016

Even though I think what you wrote is bull, I think you do a disservice not including the woman who serve our country. Thank you

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
5. this is why I wrote it the way I did
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:21 AM
Apr 2016

Most grandmothers, I would expect, who are the older women who support Hillary, are more likely to have a grandson in the service than a granddaughter. (Women in combat being a fairly recent development.)

Now, do you disagree with Hillary's history of approving/promoting wars?

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
46. With foreign policy blunders resulting in spilled blood across five sovereign nations
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:37 AM
Apr 2016

well hey, you can wear your rose tinted glasses all you like-- I'll be fine with looking at reality and then taking shots of crown. Seven thousand American servicemen and women dead in Iraq. Nine, hundred, thousand, wounded in the same venture. She doesn't care about the troops unless they're unethically intervening.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
7. tell it to the Iraqis.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:23 AM
Apr 2016

And the family members of all the service people killed there.

Tell it to the people of Libya. And Honduras.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
13. Bernie will not send American troops to fight wars of aggression or empire.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:32 AM
Apr 2016

Have you not heard one of his speeches?

Martin Eden

(12,869 posts)
59. Reviled more than admired where it counts
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:56 AM
Apr 2016

Bottom line, what matters is her actual record and whose interests she serves.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
9. Ihave felt for a number of years taht the only way to stop constant war is to install a
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:27 AM
Apr 2016

fair (good luck with that) draft again. If it was not only the poor, desperate or deluded who signed up, then we would not have as many wars. There would be too much of the privileged protesting..

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
10. you are not alone in that thought
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:28 AM
Apr 2016

I wonder what Bernie thinks about that. Nobody ever talks about it.

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
47. I wholeheartedly believe in mandatory conscription for at least four years.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:38 AM
Apr 2016

Learn a trade or a career skill, learn the meaning of civic duty, learn the significance of the military and why we shouldn't be sticking our noses everywhere and anywhere, and you'd see a lot less of these keyboard commando civvies popping off at the mouth.

Martin Eden

(12,869 posts)
60. If the USA reinstates the military draft it will be the result of MORE WAR and not enough volunteers
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:00 AM
Apr 2016

Politically, the draft is a non-starter -- unless the conflicts were in become so dire that a majority of voters believe we have to expand our military forces, even if it means family members are at risk.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
14. It's one thing to claim being misled into Iraq but
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:42 AM
Apr 2016

Libya was unconscionable. She had Iraq as a lesson, she had the intel, she pushed for the war; not for cheap oil for a national economy but for a self-serving bullet point on her resume for this very election cycle.

That Libya hasn't turned into a quagmire for hundreds of thousands of troops is a result only of the fact she had no plan for dealing with the vacuum she created. Sure, she spared US troops but the Libyan people suffer just as badly as the Iraqi people for the hubris of the American political class.

She doesn't deserve our votes she should be prosecuted at the ICC.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
16. AND...
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:45 AM
Apr 2016

Her intel on Libya came to her unsecured server, from old Clinton crony Sid Blumenthal, who had been banned from advising her as SoS by President Obama. Blumenthal was ginning up private business in Libya after Gadhaffi would fall, and he was getting flawed info from a former CIA officer who was also ginning up private business there. Clinton was running rogue foreign policy out of the sight of Obama, who did not know Blumenthal was still whispering in her ear.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
51. After Iraq, after Libya, she pushes to do the same in Syria.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:22 AM
Apr 2016

Interfere and destabilize another ME country.

No idea why she has supporters in the DEM party!

imari362

(311 posts)
15. 8 Grandsons, 1 Granddaughter...
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:44 AM
Apr 2016

She can't have any of them for their foolishness.

No need to think and it ain't hard....tend to our business for a change.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
17. Just a point here....
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:46 AM
Apr 2016

..... We have an all volunteer force. I am 100% sure that will not change under President Clinton.

Also, why only the concern about grandsons? Women fight too, and will soon be more an more on the front lines.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
19. read above
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:48 AM
Apr 2016

Nothing prevents a warmongering and imperial president from compelling Congress to draft fighters again.

imari362

(311 posts)
28. It's my belief that.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:55 AM
Apr 2016

Not as many would volunteer for service as they have in the past because so many were so gun ho for Iraq mostly because of 9/11.

I know the OP said "grandsons" but in my above post I mention that I have one granddaughter because I know woman can also be on the front lines now and she can't go to any wars that are none of our business to line the pockets of those who will sit on their wallets/bank accounts for their children and grandchildren who will not be losing life and limb in the fight.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
31. So because it's an all-volunteer military a President gets to spend their lives as she/he sees fit?
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:57 AM
Apr 2016

WRONG! If nothing else an all-volunteer force deserves a Commander-in-Chief that doesn't treat them as toys to be pushed around a sandbox in displays of bravado and misplaced ambition. Those who join do so out of necessity and/or sense of duty. They deserve not to have their ideals betrayed in fits of realpolitik.

While you're fixating on the fact women serve as well try to remember that men, women and children have suffered and continue to suffer for Hillary's self-serving war of aggression. That US service members aren't bogged down in stabilization operations in Libya is merely a testament to Clinton's failure to think beyond the headlines she was looking for. Incompetence doesn't make her corruption any less lethal for the people of Libya.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
32. Nice straw man. I never said that.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:05 AM
Apr 2016

However, I do think that anyone joinilng the military, for any reason, should be aware of what the military's job is.... Killing people and blowing crap up. And quite often, the other guys are trying to do the same right back at ya. I advise young people i know (including my own daughter) to NOT join the military, without understanding that, and being willing to take that risk.

That does mean I support putting our soldiers, seamen, airmen and marines in harms way without good reason. But good reason or not, there is a risk when you take a job oriented around fighting.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
40. Perhaps you can put your comments about an all-volunteer military into context.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:13 AM
Apr 2016

Because the OP talked about the gravity of electing someone who has indisputably led this nation into a reckless war of aggression.

Your reply to that assertion was that we have an all-volunteer military -- as if that is somehow relevant in the discussion of reckless wars of aggression. If I missed or misinterpreted something please expound.

Joob

(1,065 posts)
48. How about what you're saying now?
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:40 AM
Apr 2016

That does mean I support putting our soldiers, seamen, airmen and marines in harms way without good reason. But good reason or not, there is a risk when you take a job oriented around fighting.


I'm going to go ahead and assume that was a mistype with that second word, and you meant doesn't.

Besides that,
But good reason or not, there is a risk when you take a job oriented around fighting.


When we join the military, we join it to fight for American Values, our Freedoms. Not corporations and profit. Why do you think there's so many Veteran suicide rates? It's the realization of why we're there, while we're there. Realizing it's just for profit. Realizing people died for greed, not freedom.

You leave the wiggle room Hillary does in her speeches, good reason, or not. It should always be a good reason. MONEY is not a good reason, btw.

Those are people that joined for good reasons, and realized they're not fighting for their freedoms, but for corporations.** You have just insulted us, as people who want to blow things up.

No, I wanted to protect Our freedoms. Not play war for the highest bidder.

Joob

(1,065 posts)
21. As a young veteran, these wars are for corporations, not America.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:49 AM
Apr 2016

And they need to end. War, changes people. Realizing you're in a war for the wrong reasons.
Makes it unbearable. Suicide rate of Veterans alone prove that. I urge any Hillary Supporter to at least look through Hillary's decisions that have lead into bloodshed.

democrank

(11,095 posts)
30. Thank you for posting this, Joob.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:57 AM
Apr 2016

I`ve spent countless hours talking with veterans at several VA hospitals and it`s a real eye-opener. My best to you.

~PEACE~

Joob

(1,065 posts)
50. Thank you for your support and thanks for your help
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:03 AM
Apr 2016

and hours of dedication. It means a lot to hear that!

VulgarPoet

(2,872 posts)
49. They won't look through, man. They're too busy fiddling around what they think is a bonfire
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:40 AM
Apr 2016

With no clue that it's America that's burning.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
22. As I said, I am 100% confident there will be no draft.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:49 AM
Apr 2016

Some of you have managed to whip yourself into a ridiculous frenzy over HRC. She is NOT going to reinstate the draft.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
34. Not yet. I have a daughter, aged 14.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:06 AM
Apr 2016

I have advised her against joining the military. I have had two nephews who have served. Both made it theough more or less unwounded.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
62. so you think it's okay for other people's children and grandchildren..
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:20 PM
Apr 2016

..to be sent into war but you warn your daughter against enlisting.

Why don't you just stop supporting a candidate who has a record of warmongering?

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
36. If I think the interventionist aggression is wrong-headed
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:08 AM
Apr 2016

I don't want anyone's children, volunteers or not, wasted in the endeavor.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
38. I don't disagree with that.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:10 AM
Apr 2016

But There is no doubt a wid range of opinion on when intervention is justified.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
39. Well then I would have to ask all the people
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:13 AM
Apr 2016

who have a new-found indifference to Democratic-led wars, what, in your last 13 years of your experience with your country being at war, leads you to believe that the efforts are justified?

Supporting it when your party is doing it, and only opposing it when it's the other party in charge, is pretty much bald-faced hypocrisy.

democrank

(11,095 posts)
23. The pro-Iraq War vote that so many Democrats vehemently opposed
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:51 AM
Apr 2016

apparently doesn`t matter any more, regardless of the devastating, ongoing consequences for millions and millions of human beings. The Third Way Democrats explain that vote away, make excuses for it, accept it....the opposite of what many of them said during the George W. Bush years.Today the most important thing is "winning"....at all costs.

Hillary Clinton is a hawk. Apparently Third Wayers like that.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
27. to say nothing of the loss of our treasure!
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:54 AM
Apr 2016

How many trillions of dollars spent on "nation building" elsewhere? Think of the waste. Think of the money going into the pockets of people like Cheney -- money diverted from our own children's food and education and safety.

democrank

(11,095 posts)
35. Any nonchalant attitude toward that Iraq War vote makes me sick
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:07 AM
Apr 2016

and tells me all I need to know about those who overlook that vote, especially the ones with the unbelievable excuses.

Martin Eden

(12,869 posts)
61. Hillary Clinton lost my vote in October 2002
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:05 AM
Apr 2016

To get my vote back she would have to prove she can be trusted to keep us out of more military blunders and that she truly serves the interests of average Americans.

Instead, she continues to demonstrate she is a hawk and is a status quo politicians richly supported by Wall Street.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
33. That is one of the issues I base my (unalterable) support for Bernie on.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:06 AM
Apr 2016

The world a candidate means to make for my grandson. The difference between the candidates on that is stark, frightening, and non-negotiable.

berniepdx420

(1,784 posts)
41. Yes also think long and hard about where the wealth flows during these wars. It certainly flows
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:16 AM
Apr 2016

away from rebuilding our country and investing in educating our children. In the normal operation of war, our nations wealth flows down from all of us through taxes into the few "pockets" of the military industrial complex, global banking corporations, the fossil fuel companies and the nations propped up by them. These "pockets" aka, the 1/10th of 1% or the super rich, then actually and literally buy/pay for our Representative Government. Let that sink in for a sec. This government who represents those "pockets" who bought them, now have control of our national tax coffers through the function of expenditures. The 1% through their representatives in government now make decisions on important things like war, peace, taxation, judiciary, regulation on banking and the FCC (media ownership, structure and concentration) to name just two. All the while furthering the concentration of our nation's production and wealth into fewer and fewer "pockets" ... and the cycle continues, accelerates, concentrates and grows....to Oligarchical Empire

Paper Roses

(7,473 posts)
44. Thanks grasswire. I worry about this same thing.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:23 AM
Apr 2016

We should all be concerned about Hillary's stand in regard to wars, foreign intervention, righteous meddling of our politicians. This old timer is disillusioned with our government and with the direction we are traveling.

I see no change in our militaristic direction if Hillary is elected.

Go Bernie

gordianot

(15,238 posts)
52. My objections to Hillary have little to do with Bernie Sanders.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:51 AM
Apr 2016

The Clintons to me represent everything that went horribly wrong with my generation. Yes Hillary is a neocon she would gladly put your Grandchildren at risk. Here is my list:

1. Much like Bill Cosby and his wife the Clinton's are deep into serial sexual predation due a male libido that is insatiable. Although the Bill probably did not use drugs there seems to be a long list of women documenting these encounters. Hillary and her response to Bill's liaisons is classic denial. More than dollar bills have been thrown at Bill's accusers.

2. You are known by the company you keep. Right wing conspiracy my ass, the males in the Bush family should be in prison cell or worse. The feigned Clinton, Bush rivalry is sickening for more than 10 years they are openly close. Jeb vs Hillary would have been a joke the Republican brand has more baggage than your average Clinton (which is saying a lot).

3. Anyone who opposes a Clinton is automatically involved in a vast right wing conspiracy. The Clinton brand thrives on criticism, best of all extreme right wing nuttery deflects blame for more obvious Clinton manipulation. Right Wing media such as FOX are Clinton's best friend. At the pinnacle Limbaugh is the most effective cheerleader providing plenty of cover.

4. Clinton's have always been in the bag for ultra wealthy concerns be it Tyson Foods or the Walton's. You do not need transcripts of Wall Street speeches to figure that out.

5. They are good at playing liberal progressives. When they are gone the smile remains.

6. Hillary can hire through the family foundation specific people banned by her boss. Talk about disloyalty to Obama.

Here is the horrible part for the sake of a Supreme Court nominee I will cave and vote for Hillary. My survivor's will have to live with that.

brooklynite

(94,585 posts)
54. Tell me - are you an isolationist?
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:04 AM
Apr 2016

Do you believe that US military should only be utilized in defense of US territory?

If your answer is "yes", you disagree with Senator Sanders.

If your answer is "no", then it's just a question of which nations you want to intervene in and to what extent.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
56. We don't have to deal in theoreticals
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:34 AM
Apr 2016

What, in the 13 years of our country being in these particular wars, leads anyone to believe that the efforts are justified? The millions of civilians killed? The spreading destabilization? The increase in extremist splinter groups that make all the world less safe?

If there were a candidate more outspoken against these wars, I would support them. In my opinion, Sanders isn't half as vocal as he should be against these wars. No one is, and that may be the worst part of this election year.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
57. The lone fact that the entire electorate
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:47 AM
Apr 2016

is squeezed into a cattle chute and forced to vote for increased militarism, more instability, more death and the destruction of natural resources, more oppression and crushed potential at home and abroad, means to me that there is little to gloat over, no matter what candidate is ultimately chosen.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
63. I don't see it that way.
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:25 PM
Apr 2016

I see the expression of rejection of the status quo by Bernie supporters as extremely hopeful. He has awakened and informed the young people, and I don't think there's any going back unless a president intends to use military aggression against the people themselves. Yes, that has happened previously. But this is a global phenomenon, and chaos is the more likely result than submission.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
65. :-)
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:29 PM
Apr 2016

It's easy to be, these days. Sometimes I look to the example of the Civil Rights Movement for a lesson in perseverance and patience.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
67. Grandparents clearly don't believe that...
Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:29 PM
Apr 2016

because they're voting for Hillary much more than they're voting for Bernie.

Sid

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»It comes down to this.