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awake

(3,226 posts)
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 12:34 PM Apr 2016

In case you missed this "Hillary Clinton Voted to Continue Cluster Bombing Civilians"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251413864

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/21/425303/-Hillary-Clinton-Voted-to-Continue-Cluster-Bombing-Civilians




The main point: Hillary Clinton voted to let our military continue to use cluster bombs in areas with concentrated civilian populations, despite the thousands of innocent children who have died or been handicapped due to picking up unexploded cluster bomblets.

This vote was cast in September 6, 2006 on an amendment to the Defense Appropriations act by Senator Dianne Feinstein.

Before I get into why this was such an important amendment and why a no vote was so terrible, I just want to post the vote totals with presidential candidates in bold.

30 Democrats voted YEA: Akaka (D-HI), Baucus (D-MT), Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Cantwell (D-WA), Carper (D-DE), Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN), Dorgan (D-ND), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Jeffords (I-VT), Johnson (D-SD), Kennedy (D-MA), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Menendez (D-NJ), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Obama (D-IL), Reed (D-RI), Reid (D-NV), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wyden (D-OR)

15 Democrats and every Republican voted NAY (R's not listed):
Bayh (D-IN), Biden (D-DE), Clinton (D-NY), Dodd (D-CT), Inouye (D-HI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lautenberg (D-NJ), Lieberman (D-CT), Lincoln (D-AR), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Pryor (D-AR), Rockefeller (D-WV), Salazar (D-CO), Schumer (D-NY)

Cluster munitions are large bombs, rockets, or artillery shells that contain up to hundreds of small submunitions or individual bomblets. They are intended for attacking enemy troop formations and armor, covering approximately a .6-mile radius. In other words, their swath is over one-half mile. Yet in practice they pose a real threat to the safety of civilians when used in populated areas because they leave hundreds of unexploded bombs over a very large area and they are often inaccurate. They end up in streets and cities where men and women go to work and do their shopping. They end up in groves of trees and fields where children play. They end up in homes where families live. And in some cases, up to 40 percent of cluster bombs fail to explode, posing a particular danger to civilians long after the conflict has ended.

This is particularly and sadly true of children because bomblets are no bigger than a D battery and in some cases resemble a tennis ball. Children outside with their friends and relatives come across these cluster bombs. They pick them up out of curiosity because they look like balls and they start playing with them and a terrible result follows.

Many countries are just full of these bomblets and many more innocent children will die as a result:

As a result, 84 countries are currently participating in the Oslo process to ban cluster munitions (of course, we're not part of this either):

Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Burundi, Chad, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Guatemala, Guinea Bissau, Greece, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Lao PDR, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malawi, Malta, Mauritania, Mexico, Mozambique, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Senegal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, St Vincent and Grenadines, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Turkey, Uganda, UK, Uruguay, Venezuela, Yemen, and Zambia.


58 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In case you missed this "Hillary Clinton Voted to Continue Cluster Bombing Civilians" (Original Post) awake Apr 2016 OP
And how much money has her campaign received from the military/industrial complex? pdsimdars Apr 2016 #1
i don't think she would vote to cluster bomb because she supports the military complex MariaThinks Apr 2016 #38
Support your local war profiteer! WDIM Apr 2016 #2
Any statement from Clinton on why she voted as she did? TheDormouse Apr 2016 #3
Here's something nichomachus Apr 2016 #4
I meant any statements about this specific amendment in the OP TheDormouse Apr 2016 #7
Wow! This chilling video deserves its own thread RufusTFirefly Apr 2016 #9
Yeah. This alone to me gets to the crux of why simply she is not a suitable candidate for POTUS EndElectoral Apr 2016 #11
in case you missed it bigtree Apr 2016 #5
And your point is???????? rhett o rick Apr 2016 #8
He is making a sad and pathetic attempt to suggest that Sanders supports Vattel Apr 2016 #18
Why don't they simply say that they don't care what she has done, what she stands for, rhett o rick Apr 2016 #41
Or they attempt to say that Sanders is bad too. Vattel Apr 2016 #44
Sanders' vote authorized cluster bombing bigtree Apr 2016 #42
As typical you are having a perspective problem. H. Clinton voted against an amendment that rhett o rick Apr 2016 #46
"Those kids shouldn't have been palling around with terrorists" whatchamacallit Apr 2016 #6
It was time to call them to heel.. insta8er Apr 2016 #58
I have mentioned this many times in regard to Hillary's policies and stances. djean111 Apr 2016 #10
Hillary aligning with the Republicans again... Herman4747 Apr 2016 #12
Such is well known to internationally active in the ati-cluster bomb and landmine movements like me Dragonfli Apr 2016 #13
Why doesn't something like this ever get asked in debates or interviews? TheDormouse Apr 2016 #14
Because the people holding interviews and debates have a horse in the race nt NWCorona Apr 2016 #15
Was it one of her kindly Abuela votes? Quite the humanitarian, isn't she? Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #16
"Love and Kindness" Mike__M Apr 2016 #28
Despicable nt riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #17
Thus Hillary is a mass murderer Dem2 Apr 2016 #19
Do you deny we murder massively? whatchamacallit Apr 2016 #20
No, Hillary is personally responsible Dem2 Apr 2016 #21
But do not worry she will take a hard stance on gun manufactures awake Apr 2016 #22
That's a lot more important to me than a 15 year old war that Bush lied us into Dem2 Apr 2016 #23
AS SOS Hillary approved sales of weapons like these to the Saudi Arabia awake Apr 2016 #24
OMG, Hillary was already the President? Dem2 Apr 2016 #25
The State department has to sign off of arms deals of this nature awake Apr 2016 #26
REDRUM!! Dem2 Apr 2016 #27
So because we've been unable to stop My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #29
Hillary is a war criminal too? Dem2 Apr 2016 #30
From the time we've invaded Iraq after 9-11 My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #32
According to the NY Times, yes Chezboo Apr 2016 #37
Laughing after watching someone get sodomized with a bayonet My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #45
and what would you do about ISIS? MariaThinks Apr 2016 #39
Explain WTF cluster bombs have to do with ISIS n/t eridani Apr 2016 #53
so hillary just wants to use them for the fun of it? or so the weapons companies get to sell more? MariaThinks Apr 2016 #55
Explain why she voted for them n/t eridani Apr 2016 #56
Not by her own hand. Just a collaborator in mass murder. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #31
Oh, like an elected official who follows the will of their constituents? Dem2 Apr 2016 #33
Exactly. But, I doubt that she was "fooled". Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2016 #35
No, but she is tough. Likes her wars and seems untouched by the consequences. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #47
I looked up the Congressional Record. Sparkly Apr 2016 #34
Really? I would like to see your evidence that the good Sen Feinstein was wasting her time. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #48
Takes a superpower to raze the children nt Voice for Peace Apr 2016 #36
You people post misleading Bullshit Demsrule86 Apr 2016 #43
Another low post count Clinton supporter. Wow, they are coming out of the woodwork. rhett o rick Apr 2016 #49
Hillary Clinton wants to be president so that she can cluster bomb children Yavin4 Apr 2016 #40
Well she is loved by the neocons. Richard Perile has endorced her. She supported rhett o rick Apr 2016 #50
Clinton shouldn't be President because she authorized the cluster bombing Ed Suspicious Apr 2016 #52
Why did she vote fot cluster bombs, then n/t eridani Apr 2016 #54
Hillary the Hawk Rosa Luxemburg Apr 2016 #51
"Love and Kindness" and putting women and children first amborin Apr 2016 #57
 

pdsimdars

(6,007 posts)
1. And how much money has her campaign received from the military/industrial complex?
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 12:36 PM
Apr 2016

Bernie . . . .NONE

She never met a war she didn't like.

MariaThinks

(2,495 posts)
38. i don't think she would vote to cluster bomb because she supports the military complex
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:28 PM
Apr 2016

you might not agree with the approach to fight radical islam, but let's not make things up.

WDIM

(1,662 posts)
2. Support your local war profiteer!
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 12:37 PM
Apr 2016

Gotta keep that war machine rolling and those kick backs coming in to the Clinton Foundation.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
9. Wow! This chilling video deserves its own thread
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 01:28 PM
Apr 2016

Frankly, I didn't need to be convinced, but perhaps it will help to convince others.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
41. Why don't they simply say that they don't care what she has done, what she stands for,
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:46 PM
Apr 2016

or what she might do. Instead they make these weak-assed attempts at rationalizing her actions and positions.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
44. Or they attempt to say that Sanders is bad too.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 06:23 PM
Apr 2016

The idea (suggested in the quote offered by Bigtree in post 42) that the 1998 authorization to do airstrikes was an authorization to commit war crimes is ridiculous. It is always understood that war crimes are not within the scope of a congressional authorization to use military force. To use an analogy I use with my students when I teach on the topic of war crimes, if I tell my gardener he is authorized to protect my garden I don't thereby authorize him to kill the neighbor's child or even his cat if that child or cat starts digging in my garden. Legal and ethical limits to the scope of my authorization are simply understood as background constraints unless I explicitly say to ignore them.

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
42. Sanders' vote authorized cluster bombing
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:50 PM
Apr 2016
"The House Resolution (S Con Res 21) of 4/29/99 which "authorizes the president of the United States to conduct military air operations and missile strikes in cooperation with the United States' NATO allies against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" supports not only the current air war but also its unlimited escalation. It thereby authorizes the commission of war crimes, even of genocide. Indeed, the very day after that vote, the Pentagon announced that it would begin "area bombing," which the Washington Post (4/30/99) characterized as "dropping unguided weapons from B-52 bombers in an imprecise technique that resulted in large-scale civilian casualties in World War II and the Vietnam War.""

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
46. As typical you are having a perspective problem. H. Clinton voted against an amendment that
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 06:43 PM
Apr 2016

was specifically addressing the use of cluster bombs in areas inhabited by civilians. 84 countries have banned the use of the cluster bombs but H. Clinton wanted the continued use.

"So these inaccurate bombs with high failure rates are still being used, and will continue to cause more deaths of innocent children and of members of the United States Armed Forces."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/21/425303/-Hillary-Clinton-Voted-to-Continue-Cluster-Bombing-Civilians

Her vote was a far cry more specific about allowing cluster bombs in civilian areas.

But her fans like her "toughness".

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
6. "Those kids shouldn't have been palling around with terrorists"
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 12:47 PM
Apr 2016

Or some such Palinesque shit I've heard Hillary supporters parrot.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
10. I have mentioned this many times in regard to Hillary's policies and stances.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 01:30 PM
Apr 2016

It is one of the many reasons I will never support her.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
13. Such is well known to internationally active in the ati-cluster bomb and landmine movements like me
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 01:38 PM
Apr 2016

and a great many others.

To add insult to injury, as SoS, she was key in the sale of cluster bombs to the Sauds, she not only approves their use by us, but even by horribly evil regimes like Saudi Arabia that intend them to have a high level of civilian harm after their use (they are a very extreme fundy group known as Wahabists)


Wah·ha?bism (-bĭz?əm) n.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
Wahhabi {wə hɑ bɪ} or Wahabi
n, pl -bis
(Islam) a member of a strictly conservative Muslim sect founded in the 18th century with the aim of eliminating all innovations later than the 3rd century of Islam
Wahˈhabism, Waˈhabism n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014


Wahhabists, both officially (at times) and unofficially (at other times) would prefer the complete extinction of those outside of their sect, they back and fund DAESH as well, even if they rarely admit to it officially.

TheDormouse

(1,168 posts)
14. Why doesn't something like this ever get asked in debates or interviews?
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 01:52 PM
Apr 2016

New York Daily News? Washington Post? Hello, is anybody home?

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
20. Do you deny we murder massively?
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 02:56 PM
Apr 2016

We prefer euphemisms like "collateral damage", but really, every innocent we kill pursuing our agenda is essentially murder. Hillary has shown no reluctance to the use of force, even in questionable circumstances.

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
23. That's a lot more important to me than a 15 year old war that Bush lied us into
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 03:35 PM
Apr 2016

But yes, Hillary is a mass murderer.

awake

(3,226 posts)
24. AS SOS Hillary approved sales of weapons like these to the Saudi Arabia
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 03:41 PM
Apr 2016

Yes she does have blood on her hands

awake

(3,226 posts)
26. The State department has to sign off of arms deals of this nature
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 03:44 PM
Apr 2016

If you check this was signed off shortly after a major donation from Saudi Arabia to the "Clinton Foundation"

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
27. REDRUM!!
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 03:49 PM
Apr 2016

Without Hillary, it wouldn't exist. Maybe she's Satan? Oh, so Hillary initiated the deal? No? Oh, so she did as her boss asked? Oh. REDRUM!

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
29. So because we've been unable to stop
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:01 PM
Apr 2016

horrific and brutal war crimes, we should just start voting for them?
I really don't see this as being a satisfactory wrap-up analysis for her position on the Oslo process to ban cluster munitions.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
32. From the time we've invaded Iraq after 9-11
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:12 PM
Apr 2016

we've been engaged in war crimes. I believe in accountability, for torture, for cluster bombs, and for ceaseless drone attacks, not only for the party of political opposition, but for all involved. I believe it's time to waken from our drunken war stupor, as a nation. I think history is not going to look kindly upon this era when they put it down in the books. It is the time when the U.S. killed as many people as the Khmer Rouge, and no one was held accountable. It's hardly a distinction I want, nor the reputation I want our country to have in the future.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
45. Laughing after watching someone get sodomized with a bayonet
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 06:36 PM
Apr 2016

that's the kind of person these supporters are so ardent about.

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
33. Oh, like an elected official who follows the will of their constituents?
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:14 PM
Apr 2016

Who were also ridiculously fooled by Bush into wanting to Invade Iraq in Oct 2002?

We had a lot of idiots back then, hundreds of millions - I remember that time well.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
35. Exactly. But, I doubt that she was "fooled".
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:18 PM
Apr 2016

And, now calls it a "mistake"....resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and more to come.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
47. No, but she is tough. Likes her wars and seems untouched by the consequences.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 06:47 PM
Apr 2016

She also likes tough drug laws that get millions locked away in Prisons For Profits.

She is tough.

Sparkly

(24,149 posts)
34. I looked up the Congressional Record.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:16 PM
Apr 2016

Apparently the way the amendment was worded, it was not enforceable, as some weapons already used or sold are now in areas populated by civilians that weren't before, and we can't get them back. Also Geneva conventions already prevent the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs especially where there are civilians.

I don't see a statement made by Clinton, but here is then-Senator Biden's statement:

Mr. BIDEN. Mr. President, I share the concerns that prompted the
introduction of this amendment, but I am not prepared to approve such a
far-reaching measure without a clear legislative record regarding the
need for it and its likely impact on U.S. and allied forces.
Cluster bombs have always posed problems for responsible military
forces like those of the United States. The weapons are very useful
militarily, but they also carry a real risk of causing civilian
casualties if they are used where civilians are present or if too many
submunitions fail to explode when they hit the ground. This is a
legitimate issue to consider and, perhaps, to legislate. But it should
be done in a careful manner, after holding hearings and with proper
preparation.
I urge the Senate Armed Services Committee to hold hearings on the
issue of cluster munitions so that we can all gain a better
understanding of how to maintain their usefulness while minimizing
their risks. The committee should also make sure the Defense Department
lives up to its claim that it ``is working towards minimizing `dud'
cluster munitions by phasing cluster munitions systems with more
reliable or self-destructing fuzes.'' Success in that effort would go
far to reduce the risks of postwar casualties.


Anyone know what happened in the Senate Armed Services Committee?
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
48. Really? I would like to see your evidence that the good Sen Feinstein was wasting her time.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 07:00 PM
Apr 2016

And is your point that the reason that Clinton voted against the amendment was because she thought it was not needed. Like to see that link. By the way Obama voted for the amendment.

Why did you add this? "Also Geneva conventions already prevent the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs especially where there are civilians. " Are you trying to imply that we are following the Geneva Convention? Well we aren't. And Sen Feinstein's amendment pertained to the funding of those weapons, which is the way to stop them.

Do you support Clintons position on cluster bombs?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
49. Another low post count Clinton supporter. Wow, they are coming out of the woodwork.
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 07:03 PM
Apr 2016

H. Clinton supported the Iraq war and supports the use of cluster bombs. If you have evidence otherwise, show us.

Yavin4

(35,443 posts)
40. Hillary Clinton wants to be president so that she can cluster bomb children
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 04:30 PM
Apr 2016

and she eats babies for breakfast.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
50. Well she is loved by the neocons. Richard Perile has endorced her. She supported
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 07:09 PM
Apr 2016

the Bush war. She is tough. Supports the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs. She can't wait to take on Iran.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
52. Clinton shouldn't be President because she authorized the cluster bombing
Mon Apr 25, 2016, 07:30 PM
Apr 2016

of children. I don't have any evidence she likes the taste of babies.

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