2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumIn case you missed this "Hillary Clinton Voted to Continue Cluster Bombing Civilians"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251413864http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/21/425303/-Hillary-Clinton-Voted-to-Continue-Cluster-Bombing-Civilians
The main point: Hillary Clinton voted to let our military continue to use cluster bombs in areas with concentrated civilian populations, despite the thousands of innocent children who have died or been handicapped due to picking up unexploded cluster bomblets.
This vote was cast in September 6, 2006 on an amendment to the Defense Appropriations act by Senator Dianne Feinstein.
Before I get into why this was such an important amendment and why a no vote was so terrible, I just want to post the vote totals with presidential candidates in bold.
30 Democrats voted YEA: Akaka (D-HI), Baucus (D-MT), Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Cantwell (D-WA), Carper (D-DE), Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN), Dorgan (D-ND), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Jeffords (I-VT), Johnson (D-SD), Kennedy (D-MA), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Menendez (D-NJ), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Obama (D-IL), Reed (D-RI), Reid (D-NV), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wyden (D-OR)
15 Democrats and every Republican voted NAY (R's not listed):
Bayh (D-IN), Biden (D-DE), Clinton (D-NY), Dodd (D-CT), Inouye (D-HI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lautenberg (D-NJ), Lieberman (D-CT), Lincoln (D-AR), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Pryor (D-AR), Rockefeller (D-WV), Salazar (D-CO), Schumer (D-NY)
Cluster munitions are large bombs, rockets, or artillery shells that contain up to hundreds of small submunitions or individual bomblets. They are intended for attacking enemy troop formations and armor, covering approximately a .6-mile radius. In other words, their swath is over one-half mile. Yet in practice they pose a real threat to the safety of civilians when used in populated areas because they leave hundreds of unexploded bombs over a very large area and they are often inaccurate. They end up in streets and cities where men and women go to work and do their shopping. They end up in groves of trees and fields where children play. They end up in homes where families live. And in some cases, up to 40 percent of cluster bombs fail to explode, posing a particular danger to civilians long after the conflict has ended.
This is particularly and sadly true of children because bomblets are no bigger than a D battery and in some cases resemble a tennis ball. Children outside with their friends and relatives come across these cluster bombs. They pick them up out of curiosity because they look like balls and they start playing with them and a terrible result follows.
Many countries are just full of these bomblets and many more innocent children will die as a result:
As a result, 84 countries are currently participating in the Oslo process to ban cluster munitions (of course, we're not part of this either):
Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Burundi, Chad, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Guatemala, Guinea Bissau, Greece, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Lao PDR, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malawi, Malta, Mauritania, Mexico, Mozambique, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Senegal, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, St Vincent and Grenadines, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Turkey, Uganda, UK, Uruguay, Venezuela, Yemen, and Zambia.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Bernie . . . .NONE
She never met a war she didn't like.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)you might not agree with the approach to fight radical islam, but let's not make things up.
WDIM
(1,662 posts)Gotta keep that war machine rolling and those kick backs coming in to the Clinton Foundation.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Statements made either at that time or since?
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Frankly, I didn't need to be convinced, but perhaps it will help to convince others.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)bigtree
(85,999 posts)https://www.hrw.org/report/1999/05/11/natos-use-cluster-munitions-yugoslavia
Aide to Rep. Bernie Sanders
Resigns Over War
http://www.antiwar.com/sanders1.html
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)cluster bombs too.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)or what she might do. Instead they make these weak-assed attempts at rationalizing her actions and positions.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)The idea (suggested in the quote offered by Bigtree in post 42) that the 1998 authorization to do airstrikes was an authorization to commit war crimes is ridiculous. It is always understood that war crimes are not within the scope of a congressional authorization to use military force. To use an analogy I use with my students when I teach on the topic of war crimes, if I tell my gardener he is authorized to protect my garden I don't thereby authorize him to kill the neighbor's child or even his cat if that child or cat starts digging in my garden. Legal and ethical limits to the scope of my authorization are simply understood as background constraints unless I explicitly say to ignore them.
bigtree
(85,999 posts)"The House Resolution (S Con Res 21) of 4/29/99 which "authorizes the president of the United States to conduct military air operations and missile strikes in cooperation with the United States' NATO allies against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" supports not only the current air war but also its unlimited escalation. It thereby authorizes the commission of war crimes, even of genocide. Indeed, the very day after that vote, the Pentagon announced that it would begin "area bombing," which the Washington Post (4/30/99) characterized as "dropping unguided weapons from B-52 bombers in an imprecise technique that resulted in large-scale civilian casualties in World War II and the Vietnam War.""
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)was specifically addressing the use of cluster bombs in areas inhabited by civilians. 84 countries have banned the use of the cluster bombs but H. Clinton wanted the continued use.
"So these inaccurate bombs with high failure rates are still being used, and will continue to cause more deaths of innocent children and of members of the United States Armed Forces."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/21/425303/-Hillary-Clinton-Voted-to-Continue-Cluster-Bombing-Civilians
Her vote was a far cry more specific about allowing cluster bombs in civilian areas.
But her fans like her "toughness".
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Or some such Palinesque shit I've heard Hillary supporters parrot.
insta8er
(960 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)It is one of the many reasons I will never support her.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)...on an important issue.
Sigh.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)and a great many others.
To add insult to injury, as SoS, she was key in the sale of cluster bombs to the Sauds, she not only approves their use by us, but even by horribly evil regimes like Saudi Arabia that intend them to have a high level of civilian harm after their use (they are a very extreme fundy group known as Wahabists)
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2011 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
Wahhabi {wə hɑ bɪ} or Wahabi
n, pl -bis
(Islam) a member of a strictly conservative Muslim sect founded in the 18th century with the aim of eliminating all innovations later than the 3rd century of Islam
Wahˈhabism, Waˈhabism n
Collins English Dictionary Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
Wahhabists, both officially (at times) and unofficially (at other times) would prefer the complete extinction of those outside of their sect, they back and fund DAESH as well, even if they rarely admit to it officially.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)New York Daily News? Washington Post? Hello, is anybody home?
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Mike__M
(1,052 posts)All the way to the depth of the epidermal squamous cells.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)Got it.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)We prefer euphemisms like "collateral damage", but really, every innocent we kill pursuing our agenda is essentially murder. Hillary has shown no reluctance to the use of force, even in questionable circumstances.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)I got it, trust me.
awake
(3,226 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)But yes, Hillary is a mass murderer.
awake
(3,226 posts)Yes she does have blood on her hands
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Who knew?
But yeah, she's a mass murderer.
awake
(3,226 posts)If you check this was signed off shortly after a major donation from Saudi Arabia to the "Clinton Foundation"
Without Hillary, it wouldn't exist. Maybe she's Satan? Oh, so Hillary initiated the deal? No? Oh, so she did as her boss asked? Oh. REDRUM!
My Good Babushka
(2,710 posts)horrific and brutal war crimes, we should just start voting for them?
I really don't see this as being a satisfactory wrap-up analysis for her position on the Oslo process to ban cluster munitions.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Darn, you're right. Why isn't she in a gulag?
My Good Babushka
(2,710 posts)we've been engaged in war crimes. I believe in accountability, for torture, for cluster bombs, and for ceaseless drone attacks, not only for the party of political opposition, but for all involved. I believe it's time to waken from our drunken war stupor, as a nation. I think history is not going to look kindly upon this era when they put it down in the books. It is the time when the U.S. killed as many people as the Khmer Rouge, and no one was held accountable. It's hardly a distinction I want, nor the reputation I want our country to have in the future.
Chezboo
(230 posts)The New York Times on Hillary Clinton: Portrait of a war criminal
http://www.thedawn-news.org/2016/03/22/the-new-york-times-on-hillary-clinton-portrait-of-a-war-criminal/
My Good Babushka
(2,710 posts)that's the kind of person these supporters are so ardent about.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)Who were also ridiculously fooled by Bush into wanting to Invade Iraq in Oct 2002?
We had a lot of idiots back then, hundreds of millions - I remember that time well.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, now calls it a "mistake"....resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and more to come.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)She also likes tough drug laws that get millions locked away in Prisons For Profits.
She is tough.
Sparkly
(24,149 posts)Apparently the way the amendment was worded, it was not enforceable, as some weapons already used or sold are now in areas populated by civilians that weren't before, and we can't get them back. Also Geneva conventions already prevent the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs especially where there are civilians.
I don't see a statement made by Clinton, but here is then-Senator Biden's statement:
Mr. BIDEN. Mr. President, I share the concerns that prompted the
introduction of this amendment, but I am not prepared to approve such a
far-reaching measure without a clear legislative record regarding the
need for it and its likely impact on U.S. and allied forces.
Cluster bombs have always posed problems for responsible military
forces like those of the United States. The weapons are very useful
militarily, but they also carry a real risk of causing civilian
casualties if they are used where civilians are present or if too many
submunitions fail to explode when they hit the ground. This is a
legitimate issue to consider and, perhaps, to legislate. But it should
be done in a careful manner, after holding hearings and with proper
preparation.
I urge the Senate Armed Services Committee to hold hearings on the
issue of cluster munitions so that we can all gain a better
understanding of how to maintain their usefulness while minimizing
their risks. The committee should also make sure the Defense Department
lives up to its claim that it ``is working towards minimizing `dud'
cluster munitions by phasing cluster munitions systems with more
reliable or self-destructing fuzes.'' Success in that effort would go
far to reduce the risks of postwar casualties.
Anyone know what happened in the Senate Armed Services Committee?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)And is your point that the reason that Clinton voted against the amendment was because she thought it was not needed. Like to see that link. By the way Obama voted for the amendment.
Why did you add this? "Also Geneva conventions already prevent the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs especially where there are civilians. " Are you trying to imply that we are following the Geneva Convention? Well we aren't. And Sen Feinstein's amendment pertained to the funding of those weapons, which is the way to stop them.
Do you support Clintons position on cluster bombs?
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Demsrule86
(68,607 posts)And sometime out and out lies.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)H. Clinton supported the Iraq war and supports the use of cluster bombs. If you have evidence otherwise, show us.
Yavin4
(35,443 posts)and she eats babies for breakfast.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the Bush war. She is tough. Supports the indiscriminate use of cluster bombs. She can't wait to take on Iran.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)of children. I don't have any evidence she likes the taste of babies.