I stated yesterday as such. I'm tired of the flame wars, the histrionics, constant insult and cult of personality that seems to be pervasive here. I may support Sanders but I've seen this from both sides. We are supposed to be a party of tolerance and yet there is a distinct lack of it on here. This isn't the first time I have seen different opinions result in personal attack and out right lies. If I do go, I'm sure I'll come back and the cycle will start all over again. Sometimes I think far too many people here are only looking for an echo chamber and will push the rules to the limit in order to silence anyone with a different view.

This forum is probably crawling with old-fashioned Freepers, who attack progressive ideas...

I would hope his leadership in that aspect would inspire others to do the same. This is how we move the party to the left and Sanders himself knows that. All of these people claiming to be leaving the party almost immediately after he joins makes no sense. More should follow his lead and help the party to be better and stronger. That includes staying on forums like DU and continuing to promote progressive causes.

This community would suffer a great loss if you left Armstead. Thanks for you op.

If the party wants to keep them it will have to move to the left. Most of those guys are loyal to ideas not so much to parties. There is a good chance that after this election if democrats don't adopt more liberal polices, our numbers will continue to decline. Maybe another party will form, maybe they will stay an mirror the briefly successful tea party.

"If the party wants to keep them it will have to move to the left..."

Otherwise, they'll sneak out in the morning after having used and gotten what they wanted.

They haven't gotten what they wanted...that's why they're leaving.

> If the party wants to keep them it will have to move to the left

there's the beauty of the situation. the party is its people. by joining the party to support Sanders, these hundreds of thousands of young progressives just moved the Democratic party significantly to the left. the only way it flops rightward is if they leave.

if SBS emphasizes building the economic justice movement within the Democratic party, a lot of the newcomers will stick around, and because it's a coherent set of messages the leadership will listen. the Sanders coalition will have a big role in putting together the party platform this summer, and it's going to make a difference.

the Democratic party is staged to become the dominant political force in this country for the next decade. the surest way for progressives to get screwed is if they leave the Democrats now, instead of sticking around to continue the movement from within. without significant effort & presence from its "Sanders wing" the Democratic party will fall under the influence of the bankers & industrialists fleeing the sinking GOP and then we're all stuck with neo-liberal economic policies shaping the Democratic agenda for the foreseeable future.

Will only listen to money (it is speech now)

if the party leadership only listens to money now (and that is not self evident), it's because they've gotten used to hearing from the well-heeled, and we the members need to change that. the surest and fastest way that happens is if SBS remains active in the Democratic party and uses his influence to shift its priorities and its MO.

otherwise the party plutocrats will get a whole lot more power during the coming mainstream consolidation and continue to hoodwink the rubes. i doubt you want that, and SBS is uniquely positioned to prevent it.

I'm a lefty independent. The D party can go to Hell. It's almost there now.

Because I felt a need to get off the fence. Didn't have to in NC for voting purposes.

I don't regret it, yet. We'll see how this plays out.

Senator Sanders (I-VT)* is running as a Democrat in the Democratic presidential primary.

He remains a democratic socialist and an independent.

Democrats move the Democratic Party to the left.

What a laugh. Democrats have been driving the party to the right now for decades.

It took an independent socialist to finally get the Democrats even discussing a real, progressive agenda. And a majority of Democrats want no part of it.

So, no Democrats aren't moving Democrats to the left. They are still moving rightward in the wake of the republicans.

!!!

Check your emotions at the door or log in screen there are no problems.

Free College. Universal Healthcare. Double the payout of Social Security at a time when the system needs shoring up and the GOP who runs both Houses of Congress wanting to privatize SS. I know some say you have to think big, like that's an original thought. Some of us have been around long enough to know that sometimes when you try and eat the elephant all at once, you just end up with heartburn. There is too much at stake in this election, and with Trump as the choice of the GOP, this was not the time to have Moderate Dems, and Independents heading for the Exit.

the average American's voice being diminished by the exclusive class of controllers we have lost our freedom and fairness for every American citizen. You keep saying it's Bernie's plans. Not so! It's is the foundation of fairness and equality that has persisted for many many ions that has been crushed by the ptb...It was pushed out by greed and corruption of the establishment's control...and we want back it back. Enough!

Hillary is progressive!

There should be plenty of room for disagreement, and even heated debate. And sure, people are going to disagree over their choice of candidate. That's politics.

But the tone of it sounds more like Repubicans. The dismissal of long-accepted liberal goals as "ponies" and "free stuff" is not simply argueong how to get to shared goals. it is dismissing and demonizing the goals themselves.

For example, Bernie's specific proposal for healthcare may be either be unworkable in its proposed form, or needed some more tweaking, or less realistic than an incremental or compromise step such as a public option.

But the smug dismissal of the goal of universal affordable healthcare as a "pony" and the people who support that through some version of public insurance is not minor disagreements over how to do it. Nor is the broad brush characterization of Berniebros, or the characterizations of Sanders as a Commie...etc.

Bernie's supporters have been every bit as smug and dismissive of the people who don't support what he is proposing. I've been called a Republican many times for simply saying that Bernie's plan to rely on Republican governors to give kids free tuition is unworkable.

Who dismissed universal healthcare? That's Hillary's goal too, so I would be curious to know how many people here don't want to see everyone have health coverage.

Not denying that....80 percent of us her act like jerks at times, some more often than otehrs.

But speaking for myself, I try to "post unto others as they post"

When people raise reasonable points, or want to discuss in a civil respectful way, I respond likewise.

But I also respond to snark with snark.

...I'll be leaving (or only reading/posting in specialized, largely non-political groups)...but not permanently. Just until the day after the election. Out of respect for the rules...

Last edited Thu Apr 28, 2016, 04:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Been dealing with heart issues, cardiologists, hospitals and insurance for a solid wk now on 7wo7rees behalf.

Yesterday and still today around here at DU is awful.

Thank you again.
Ms. 7wo7rees

.

Ms. 7wo7rees

The Democratic club I attend is about evenly divided between Sanders Clinton supporters. They NEVER attack one another meet face to face have social skills and worry about many of the same things including Clinton legal problems. I am going no where this is if nothing else a good place to learn what people think. No one I know really thinks this is over including the one functionary delegate in the group. No one I know as a Democrat wants the Republican candidates to take the Whitehouse. DU is an interesting place and I have been close to taking it personally. You must contrast DU with real live walking talking Democrats.

in being around for their eventual capitulations. All that smug Hillary talk about marriage being too sacred for those sinful gay people has vanished and now she and her supporters like to pretend that was never her position, they are ashamed by the very thing they so soundly defended in the name of God and family and that is ultra satisfying.
So far Bernie's candidacy has done far better than I expected going in and that's wildly encouraging because it means that many other people are looking to improve the country and are tired of hearing about how great Reagan was and all that other centrist goodness Hillary serves up. Top of the cycle she was slated for instant nomination, but that's not how it went down. At all. And that is fantastic in and of itself.

This site has slid from its heyday in the early 2000s into a repulsive den of sycophantry.
I'll probably go back to largely staying away and allowing the cheerleaders their echo chamber.

www.jackpineradicals.com

n/t

that its over 1000. I can't figure out how to tell for sure over there though.

It is at the bottom of the Forums page.

i am not very tech savvy but at some point i will get my grandkids to teach me how to interact over there

are lost with that format.

From what I've read, people in detention centers can have a happy day, if they set their minds to it. If Sander goes down the folks at the bottom are going to need all of the help that they can get!

helping someone else is always the cure

My best to you.

gardening is my passion

maybe it is something about the symbolism of starting a tiny seed in feb to gathering produce in the summer that gives me hope

i am about 5 blocks from a food bank and they are always happy with my produce but

the best part is hearing my very diverse neighborhood children holler,

"grandma can you fix us a veggie plate?"

use it to their advantage, hollow it out of its valuable assets, and leave the husk to wither and die. It is what they have done to the Democratic party. In that same sense it is what they have done to this website. I was one of the originals (under another name) and my efforts along the efforts of hundreds of other committed progressives built this site to what it was. But then we discovered that the founding of the site was a "pied piper" operation run by the Democratic party establishment in order to corral the fury against the Bush selection.

So yes, we get emotionally attached to something because we helped create it. But we were duped and we are still considered second class citizens if we don't support the corrupt and ethically challenged candidate. It is a classic case of the minority holding sway over the majority. That is the neoliberal way. Neoliberalism is another form of colonialism. It is the grease of the Empire.

I am here because of the friends I made here. But if I get banned today I would be A OK with that because this site is never going to be anything more than a deception, like almost all establishment politics.

Sorry for the harsh reality, but trust me, DU is not going to be a platform for anything other than pushing establishment politics.

I imagine the like minded celebration that will unfold if the dream does come true. The hard work ahead is yet to be discovered. But, the fall guy is already selected should they fail to repair the damage that has been done.

I found this place. It often seemed to be pretty mainstream, like the word "underground" was just someone's attempt to be clever.

This helps me to understand DU a little better.

The name "Democrat" has been dirtied up so badly by the Third Way/DLC that it's pretty much lost all meaning.

Bernie's supporters have comprised the vast majority of voices here on DU for months. It is simply not true that DU reflects resistance to progressive change, liberalism or simple reform given the prevailing sentiment from most of the site's supporters.

Also, I think a vast number, if not overwhelming majority of Hillary's supporters also support progressive change, liberalism and simple reform. They simply prefer Hillary to Bernie and that does not mean they reject those things. Not only that but after almost 230 years of male dominance in our government, a female president is very much a dramatic example of progressive change.

Bernie's supporters need to abandon this ridiculous belief that Hillary supporters (by and large) do not want America to move in the same direction as they want her to move. The two groups are not enemies. They simply prefer a different leader and may want to take a different path; but the destination is more or less the same.

is not a reason to vote for someone. I've said it before and I will say it again. It's like wanting a woman doctor and then finding out that it's not gender you searched for but an intelligent, compassionate, ethical human to work with you. The restroom law should drive the point home. Gender is highly overrated and a dangerous card to play. For the record, the last time I checked, I'm still a female.

They see Hillary as an experienced, knowledgeable and competent leader to finally break down that wall that should never have been erected in the first place. When people like you say people shouldn't vote based on gender, the other side says they are putting an end to 230 years of gender bias in our leadership and that you're simply promoting the status quo instead of advocating for change.

That was very well put.

..and respect for the law your argument fails completely. Judge yourself, not others.

There is no way you will convince a typical Clinton voter that Bernie is better for women than Hillary is. In that regard, Hillary's integrity is without question. Your gender vs. integrity issue completely falls apart as the hollow distraction you're trying to make it out to be.

From one Bernie voter to another, you really need to open your mind and understand why Hillary's supporters are backing her.

What is the point of electing a woman President if she behaves like all the men who came before her? Symbolism can be powerful, and I think America is more than ready for a woman President. But a woman who thinks, "Yeah, let's keep approaching things the way we have been for the past 30 years," isn't going to be change.

Not where it matters.

I honestly don't know. I'm just hypothesizing and trying to see things from their perspective.

I wish I could find it, that goes into detail about surface feminism and feminist values. Where surface feminism is the act of putting a woman in a position typically occupied by men, but a feminist values approach puts a woman in the same position, but with a desire to tackle problems from a different perspective.

The latter appeals to me far more than the former.

Maybe her supporters think she is a feminist values type, but I quite honestly have never seen any indication of this in the policies she has promoted. Particularly when it comes to war and foreign policy. War far more adversely affects women and children. I'd like to think a female politician would take more note of that, hold that thought dearer, and be less cavalier than her male counterparts to inflict suffering around the world.

I do not at all get that vibe from Clinton. If anything, I think she's even more hawkish than a lot of male Democrats.

No, voting cuz solely for Gender is so yesterday. and for good reason.

The "Glass Ceiling" has been broken years ago, and what has it offered us so far? Capitulation to the status quo, when what was needed and desired all along and since FOREVER is a complete Paradigm Shift .

Peace Warriors, not War Mongers, Genuine policies which benefit all women and children, the working class, the poor and working poor, as opposed to policies which benefit the bourgeoisie to the detriment of the working class and working poor.

Fuck that. In 44 elections and a couple hundred years, never has a woman been elected to either of the two highest positions that we vote for in this country. That is your god damn status quo right there.

That fact that you could even begin to compare Clinton to Thatcher, Palin, Fiorina or Bachmann shows that you are disgustingly blinded by your hatred.

Yeah, the U.S. is behind on that position.

It's no longer a glass ceiling in need of breaking.

It's a complete paradigm shift that this old traditional working class Feminist has been fighting to actualize all of my life.

Not a Bourgeois Woman to take the same chauvinistic (in the geo-political foreign policy sense) positions as just about every male President in history.

A woman who is a Peace Warrior, not a War Monger.

There is a vast world of difference between Clinton and your ridiculous comparisons. This fairy tale chauvinisitic villian you are describing is nothing more than hateful hyperbolic teeth gnashing.

And don't you dare tell me that women should be satisfied with the status fucking quo of the last couple hundred years and that there is no longer a need to break that glass ceiling. I will not sit down and shut up and accept your ridiculous dismissal.

Fuck. That. Noise.

I'll leave you to it.

In our society gender is transient if that is a term. People need to get with the times. Too funny if the first woman president had gender reassignment during her first term. That would at least make me chuckle. I go integrity and brains first.

of only males being there is sexist. It is understandable, of course, to want that but being a woman doesn't make her the better leader - that should be the 1st consideration. Voting policies and records, not just gender.

There are people who think her gender makes her the better candidate on the issues. Your gender less idealism runs into he wall of their reality.

should benefit the country as a whole 1st. Not just for a man's or a woman's perspective but from a person's perspective. The person most qualified to be the best leader for this country. Gender be damned.

Sometimes a white old man is the best candidate.

I am so done with Identity politics. Done.

Yes, azmom, I am with you on that.

You just pointed out the irony to me; yep, sometimes an old white guy is the best candidate.


Cher

No more voting for the democratic candidate just because they are democrats.

I'm changing to independent after the nomination.

On the ticket as vp to entice Latinos. I say fuck that. He's another corporate tool.

I'll take an honest, non-corrupt white man that will work for the average working class person any day of the week.

It's just a vibe or something. But I admit I am now gun shy.

Hillary; if you think you're voting for reform, you haven't been paying attention.

Hillary supporters back the Third Way, New Democrat program that she embodies.

It is rightist on foreign policy and economics. While slightly to the left on social issues, the main thrust is to the right. Hillary supporters know this. They are happy with that. Have you ever seen or heard any Hillary supporter repudiate the DLC, the Third Way, the New Democrats, or most of Bill Clinton's economic policies? Didn't think so.

The DLC is ancient history. The terms Third Way and New Democrats mean next to nothing to anyone outside of some of Bernie's core supporters. Ask someone what Third Way is and you will receive a blank face. People seldom repudiate things they know nothing about or don't care about which is why you seldom receive the repudiation you crave. Also, issues from today matter more to Clinton's voters than issues from 20+ years ago so criticisms of laws signed by her husband do not resonate much with her backers. Many Bernie supporters fail to grasp this very important point.

and therefore we are all doomed to repeat it?

Is that your assertion?

And the mistakes of the past (failing to protect labor from being exploited, failing to protect the environment, etc.) could very easily be repeated, despite supporters being unaware of the issues (e.g. TPP, fracking).

For example.

Our planet is fucked with Madame President.

They could just as easily claim that you don't give damn about their top concern and we are as equally screwed. For someone who apparently considers themself to be a progressive, you have a surprising lack of empathy and tolerance.

I'm done being nice about it.

I have friends and family and a whole planet I love. Hillary and her supporters are purposefully choosing to destroy them.

Frankly, a top priority of making sure war criminal Netanyahu is sucked up to properly and that Israel gets what it wants (war with Iran) has erased my tolerance and empathy, but even that doesn't come close to "equally scewing" us as slow walking environmental action.

http://forward.com/opinion/national/324013/how-i-would-rebuild-ties-to-israel-and-benjamin-neta/

Deciding to kill the planet has pushed me into real anger at Hillary supporters. I'd feel sorry about your lack of understanding on this but please know they've fucked you over too and soon enough you'll know it.

Different people have different priorities. More work can be achieved via cooperation than by anger. It's obvious which of the two you have chosen.

That's a big fucking deal.

I want my candidate to be thinking of the long term for all of us.

That is ludicrous. The New Dems run the current Democratic Party.

People don't repudiate it because liars hide the truth. Well and because most Americans are just stupid zombies who vote.

The first woman governor of Texas was Ma Ferguson. She was elected after Pa got kicked out of Austin.
Lurlene Wallace was elected governor of Alabama when George couldn't run another consecutive term.
We've had women in Congress who were elected to their deceased husbands' seats.

I want a woman to be elected in her own right! Not because she was married to a former president and feels entitled. She's done nothing except to join the Republicans in pushing for military intervention. Other than that, absolutely nothing and yet she campaigns as someone who "gets things done." Maybe for the Clinton Foundation she does, but for America, I see nothing.

If her supporters really are "progressives" then I feel sorry for the disappointment and despair they will undoubtedly experience with Blue Dog Hillary. She's more like Blanche Lincoln than Elizabeth Warren.

Just a reminder - in case you have short term memory loss with regards to the views of the overwhelming majority of Hillary's supporters.

And the fact that Clinton is a woman is no more a dramatic example of progressive change than Sara Palin was.

This primary season has been one of futile attempts to communicate with quite frankly, I don't know who. There is no valor in these halls. I have witnessed many a primary here. Several cycles I sat out, lurking before joining. This has been the worst and the outcome, I fear is one of the most desperate yet. The country that I have watched struggle for so many years seems to have disappeared, gone forever. The idea of the prospect of peace is gone, down the toilet. Living wages will have to wait, I'm sorry to say. Health care will be walked back to nothing. The frightening line of thinking in,what appears to be the majority of the voters, shows a desperate need for education.

My hat is off to Senator Sanders. He has worked his heart out for this. Just over a year ago today he began. If CA can step up to the plate that would be an amazing feat but they will be working with computers that have been deemed easily hackable and a process that is designed to work against him. I'm not angry and I don't need to count to ten. I am in shock at the state of things. I am saddened and I am disgusted but the angry....I'm over that.

If She wins, we lose.

I'm trying not to get down. If CA can make a spark that would be nice. Thanks for the inspiration.

The BrockPuppets are their accomplices. You just keep the vision of our goal in your mind's eye, and we will be fine.

I would make a terrible prisoner!

they want us to acquiesce and support a candidate that millions have come forth to try to keep out of office.

Now, after they disparage our positions, they try to say we are not that far apart. That's bullcrap, we are miles apart. But while they wallow in there assumed victory, we will continue to fight for the 99%.

WTF

So now a person who is centrist-right is a liberal. Unbelievable.

Many simply cannot do this, and instead of being banned, they feel it is better to leave if they can't support the nominee.

I get it. Many might come back after the election. They just can't bring themselves to support someone that crosses their boundaries. I must say I am in the same predicament.

I cannot vote for HRC for President. Not going to list the myriad of reasons, but they are long beginning with Iraq, her foreign policy disasters, her lack of transparency, constant political position shifts, and her Wall Street ties that compromise her ability to bring about true change in America. And I surely can't vote for any GOP candidate and feel I am stuck. Can't do the "lesser than two evils" thing this year, so I may just cozy up with a good book like Upton Sinclair's The Jungle

“The rich people not only had all the money, they had all the chance to get more; they had all the know-ledge and the power, and so the poor man was down, and he had to stay down.”
― Upton Sinclair, The Jungle

“The great corporation which employed you lied to you, and lied to the whole country—from top to bottom it was nothing but one gigantic lie.”
― Upton Sinclair, The Jungle

After the primary I may disappear for a while, or possibly post on other subjects occasionally....dunno.

But presumably, the lid will be temporary until after the election. Time will tell.

This is a misunderstanding of how it will look when Skinner "calls it." Nobody will be required to suddenly post nothing but fawning praise of the nominee. Constructive criticism has always been allowed.

The line is crossed when blatant vitriol is directed towards the candidate. Right-wing sourced talking points and outright antagonistic opposition to the nominee is not allowed on a GE footing.

So unless a person just cannot stop themselves from posting Republican-sourced vitriolic crap against the nominee, they should be just fine.