n/t

Your candidate however will "quick fix" us soon as she gets elected. She will then evolve back toward tpp etc. don't tell us about quick fixes when your candidate quickest fix is to lay down and stop fighting for minimum wage or health insurance. We do not need your lectures nor your snark. But you need to get out and sell that terrible candidate to as many suckers as you can get, because many of us aren't having any of it.

... congress will shift the legislative direction in the country some are focused on getting the president changed.

Trick question: If the congress was 80% progressive does the veto of the president matter as much?

I'm not into calling Clinton the devil, the contrast between someone as racist and sexist as Donald Chump is stark

.. then not wanting to do the ground pounding in the off years despite the DNC.

All this could've been lead by Sanders...

We'll see what happens after this primary is over, he'll either burn the town down or he'll do the ground work to make it stronger

you need to sell that crap candidate of yours to the available suckers. if she does earn my vote that will be all. No money, she can go to wall st and super pacs, no canvassing, cuz I'm just not into her. No phone banking, for the same. And no convincing others to vote for her, that's you guys job, I'm not on team sell out .

Iraq war vote, bankruptcy bill, 50 times of calling TPP the gold standard, Syria, Libya, Honduras, quietly campaigning for the Colombian free trade agreement while actually voting against it. Fracking, keystone, no fight for minimum wage, no fight for healthcare, private email server, taking money from lobbyists after Obama halted that, her donors, her transcripts.. care to go on?

.. you think about African Americans", Having someone who called Obama niggerized stump for him in front of mostly white people, no PoC on is staff until after declaration, recoiling from a true revolution in BLM until it was politically expediant, voted for crime bill, voted to give gun corps immunity, wont speak out against the mic, his PACs, his taxes

You care to go on too?

tia

We both know who is on the take and who is funded by citizens alone.

... with someone NOT going to a tank battle carrying a bat either.

Citizens alone is noble but JUST nobility doesn't win battles or wars.

she can garner all the money due to citizens united, so she will fight citzens united lol . You've been P. T. Barnummed. I forgot to mention DWS eliminating Obama's directive against lobbyist money. This is what we are fighting, and you support. Good luck with that.

... out of any human cause I aint gonna give it.

DW eliminated that directive cause how entrenched lobbyist are in the Washington again, I'm not expecting perfection just someone who gives a damn...

and that's both of the DNC candidates

she has few of them. It's really that simple.

so the likelihood of Hillary listening to me is pretty slim. She knows what is best for us. We need to get behing her or be brought to heel.

anything about the TPP.


There are a lot of pros...

They have one or two talking points and then give the typical "do your own homework" line ...which I find funny because they willfully post the worthless edited, devoid of history "lies of Hillary" over and over with no problem.


Pros...
The TPP boosts exports and economic growth, creating more jobs and prosperity for the 12 countries involved. It increases exports by $305 billion per year by 2025. U.S. exports would increase by $123.5 billion, focusing on machinery, especially electrical, autos, plastics and agriculture industries.

It does this by removing 18,000 tariffs placed on U.S. exports to the other countries. The United States has already withdrawn 80% of these tariffs on foreign imports. The TPP evens the playing field.

The agreement adds $223 billion a year to incomes of workers in all the countries, with $77 billion of that going to U.S. workers.

All countries agreed to cut down on wildlife trafficking, especially elephants, rhinoceroses, and marine species. It prevents environmental abuses, such as unsustainable logging and fishing. Those that don't will face trade penalties.
(Source: US Trade Representative, TPP Fact Sheet)

TPP requires countries, through strong, enforceable provisions, to:

Protect the freedom to form unions and bargain collectively;
Prohibit and eliminate exploitative child labor and forced labor;
Protect against employment discrimination;
Set acceptable conditions of work concerning minimum wages, hours of work, and workplace health and safety;
Prevent degradation of labor protections in export processing zones— designated areas that often have lax labor rules in other countries, allowing them to compete unfairly; and
Combat trade in goods made by forced labor, including forced child labor, in countries inside and outside TPP.

TPP also establishes specific labor reforms that Vietnam, Malaysia, and Brunei must undertake to meet their TPP obligations. The United States will not bring TPP into force with these countries if the reforms are not made. And we will not hesitate to take action against any countries that fail to live up to their obligations in the labor chapter, including through trade sanctions.

And in addition to TPP representing a renegotiation of NAFTA by holding Mexico to the fully enforceable labor provisions listed above, Mexico is also developing parallel labor reforms, including to better protect collective bargaining and reform its system for administering labor justice.

https://ustr.gov/tpp/#facts

There are Cons...

Most of the gains in income would go to workers making more than $88,000 a year. Free trade agreements contribute to income inequality in high-wage countries by promoting cheaper goods from low-wage countries.

That would be especially true of the TPP because it protects patents and copyrights. Therefore, the higher-paid owners of the intellectual property would receive more of the income gains.

The agreement regarding patents will reduce the availability of cheap generics, making many drugs more expensive. Competitive business pressures will reduce the incentives in Asia to protect the environment. Last but not least, the trade agreement could supersede financial regulations. (Source: Public Citizen, Eyes on Trade, September 12, 2013)
The Negotiators Overcame These Obstacles

There were five major sticking points that stood in the way of the deal. Here's how they were overcome.

The United States agreed to shorter patents, especially for biologic drugs. Pharmaceutical companies can keep their formulas secret for five to seven years instead of 12 years.

All stated-owned enterprises must comply with global trade standards that protect their workers and the environment. The United States had to overcome objections from Vietnam, Singapore, and Malaysia. Those countries must now allow labor unions or face penalties.

The United States, Japan, and Canada will lose some tariff protection for dairy, beef and poultry producers. Farming subsidies received by U.S. and EU companies prevented the success of the Doha round of trade talks held by the World Trade Organization. (Source: "The ABCs of TPP," The Globe and Mail, January 26, 2016)

These countries also agreed to open up their automotive industries. That could cost local jobs while lowering the price of cars and trucks. (Source: Tokyo Offers to Cut Tariffs, Japan Times News, February 2, 2015)

The United States won the battle over the Investor-State Dispute Settlement Mechanism. That gives foreign companies more rights to sue the government than their domestic companies have. In return, the U.S. agreed to restrictions on the trade of tobacco. Cigarette companies will no longer be allowed to use arbitration panels to sue countries that tax or otherwise restrict cigarette advertising. (Source: "Sticking Points in the TPP Negotiations" Peterson Institute. "Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Deal Is Reached," The New York Times, October 5, 2015. "Negotiators Strike Pacific Trade Deal," Financial Times , October 5, 2015)

http://useconomy.about.com/od/Trade-Agreements/fl/What-Is-the-Trans-Pacific-Partnership.htm

every one of these fucking piece of shit trade deals.

And they are proven wrong every fucking time.

of nothingness. What is proven wrong? What specifically?
Jobs being outsourced? TPP addresses that -it adds jobs to our economy, the kind of jobs that require skills and therefore help these college students who've graduated and been stuck in a jobless market.

What?


Corporations will engage in business over seas regardless of any trade deals. That really gives them the power to call all the shots. Money talks . the wealthy have 21 trillion in off shore accounts alone. I wonder how many countries would be happy to have them spend it and build their economies. Thus trade deal actually helps stabilize a minimum wage globally as well as other labor benefits.
Yes its true corporations will benefit more, but we still benefit as do workers around the world under this agreement. Why shoot ourselves in the face by digging our feet in when we don't have the power in Congress right now to change it? We should take every possible benefit and continue to elect Progressives until we can legislate on our own terms. But ...we need the power first.

It's going to be at least two more election cycles to gain the kind of majorities Progressives need to negotiate better terms for labor and have some meaningful consequences for those in corporate America in trying to avoid increasing wages to a fair level for each skill level , not just those making minimum wage. TPP helps gain jobs that are worth $88K per year. We need domestic policies to increase incomes for middle and lower classes and Dems are already fighting for that.

is a strong incentive to cobble together a superficially plausible story line and send out armies of minions to peddle it?

Go shovel your corporate, anti-American worker crap somewhere else.

Have a nice day.

that there would be no way to guarantee GMO labeling or to prohibit GMOs. No way to prohibit food with pesticides, endocrine disruptors and other potential nasty things. Potentially big business in other countries prohibiting local small farmers from selling in such programs as local school lunches. You assume "world standards" on labor or environment are actually a good thing. Well, it might be for China but not for us or the even better run Europe. It would be a step down. The US tends to figure food/water/air/drugs/cosmetics are all ok unless scientific tests show they are harmful. Europe tends to ban things until scientific tests can prove they aren't harmful. A lot of us in America feel we should be doing that, too. But TPP could push the US model as the "World standard". A major setback for those of us trying to get GMO labeling or banning of endocrine disruptors, pesticides that kill beneficial insects and other things.

Last I heard we were getting sued 5 billion for denying the Keystone pipeline, but not through any country's courts but through a secret tribunal thanks to NAFTA. Any trade agreement that subverts a democratic country's sovereignty and the peoples' right to steer it is bad.

I'm sure there are others but that was found immediately.

https://m.

People are going to move on, and build a new city.

Because if it is they've done a damn good job.

I think a lot of people have just given up.

I think Sanders's and Trumps' popularity speaks to that chronic dysfunction.

It may be necessary to just walk away from this village and build a new one and let that old one burn down or fall under it's own miserable weight.

None of us did this, except through out own ignorance and blind allegiance, which is not insignificant.

It's not going to fix itself, this third way dominance.

... on more confirmation that he's not a details kinda guy.

The country already had an non details kinda guy and he was a horrible president

Either that or your candidate knew the Iraq war was based on lies and voted for it anyway out of political expediency.

The charitable explanation though is that she was fooled by Duyba who you just described as a "horrible President".

Op: If you don't work within the system to change it then you're assholes.
Bernie fan: But the system is broken and rigged so changing it is nearly impossible!
You: Well he knew the rules when he started..

They said that GWB and Gore were the same. I think they were wrong. Almost everyone now thinks that. So why are we doing this again? Even if you don't personally remember that race, it was not all that long ago. The internet is a wonderful thing. It is so easy to look something like that up.....

And 'It became necessary to destroy the town to save it' thinking is more than lazy thinking. It is just plain lazy. And most of the people threatening that are either VERY entitled or not nearly as progressive as they think they are.

... thinking they were the ultra progressive but they seem to be a different side of the same coin relative to Trump.

Trump was sued twice by the DOJ for racial discrimination, one of his wives said he raped her and then took it back...

There's no way I could fix my thoughts to vote for that kinda person...

for some time.

I was in Asheville, NC for an activist training retreat, back-in-the-day. At the time, that congressional district was represented by a conservative Dem named Heath Shuler. That district was weird. Asheville is far left, but the rest of the area is wildly conservative. Like snake handling churches and Confederate flags nutty... So Shuler was a decent compromise. We were lucky to have a Dem in that seat at all, holding onto control of the House by a shoestring, so we NEEDED that seat. Anyway, a local "progressive" was bitching about how conservative Shuler was. And I asked politely, well who did the "progressives" run in the primary? It turns out they ran a guy whose only policy positions involved marijuana and was an actual convicted MURDERER. And she told me this with a straight face. I blew soda out of my nose I laughed so hard.

So that is the level of common sense they exhibit. Purity of Ideology trumps all
I am ok with socialism. Socialism is just an idea. And ideas can be useful when they serve the greater good. It is ideologues that piss me off. Ideologues are ALWAYS wrong. Doing right by people is more important than enforcing "right" ideas.

BTW, that district represented by a conservative Dem was split right down the center once the GOP took over the NC statehouse. So those "progressives" now get to experience the fruits of their purity. They get ZERO representation now, due to the way their district was gerrymandered. The difference between conservative Dems and GOP is sooooo clear in NC. Oh well. I guess some need to learn the hard way. Over and over and over.....

... to have the same effect as destroying the city to save it and then they have to live with the effects..

spot on

"cutting off your nose to spite your face".

'bathroom bill' that is nothing but pure hate. My Mom called that bigotry. Cutting off minority noses out of pure spite is not pragmatism, it's hate.

I do not condone their vote, but it is what it is. And the stupid law still would have passed without them. NONE of it would have happened if "progressives" turned out in 2010 and we held a few more General Assembly seats (as it stands, GOP has a veto-proof majority) and the governor. Or vice versa. HB2 is the GOP's monster, just like the gawdawful Monster Voter Suppression Bill they passed a few years back.

But yeah, focus on the 12 who made a wrong choice on a single bill and ignore the fact that when the Dems lost in 2010, we got HB2, voter ID, they fucked our public education system, knee capped healthcare (many rural hospitals closing because they refused the Medicaid money from the Feds. People are dying because they can't get care.).

And you know what else is complicated and difficult to process? We need to pick up four GA seats in November to break the veto-proof GOP majority. 1/2 of those horrible conservative Dems are from majority white, rural and conservative districts. You think they will pick another, more liberal candidate if we beat the crap out of the one who voted wrong, or you think they go for the GOP instead? I mean how many rural, white and Southern Democratic districts even exist in this day and age? So what should we do? Be pure and ideal and kick them out, or do the math and realize that we can flip four seats and gain the power to block a thing like HB2 completely in the future? It is unlikely that we can flip ten seats, so if we are pure, we lose the big picture. So which is the moral choice? Suck it up and deal with those conservative party members so, big picture, people can have healthcare, education and vote and use the restroom without being harassed? Or be pure and suffer the consequences.

Uponnit is right. Only the privileged with not much to lose want to burn it all down

But I also care about defeating fascists and helping oppressed people even if you can only help them in one fell swoop, so I'm willing to compromise on my on ideology in order to win. Winning is the ONLY thing, because even the worst Dem > GOP. The main issue is that most of these "progressives" are mediocre privileged white kids (or were mediocre privileged white kids in the 60s) who wanted to define themselves by how "pure" and "liberal" they were; talking the talk but never walking the walk, or even if they did walk the walk like Bernie did, they got diverted away from actual organizing into cute little "projects" in low pop areas because it seemed like a more viable way to get "revolution" than pragmatic organizing.

Emoprogs often talk about "starting negotiations too far to the right" which is a valid criticism (I think Obama *could* have got the public option in for example but he decided to play it safe and not risk the entire bill) but what they're advocating isn't negotiating, it's flipping the table over in anger if the other side doesn't give you 100% of what they want.

"We are not red states or blue states; we are the UNITED states!" He should have given up on that earlier, IMO. He was trying to pull out some cooperation long past the time when it was evident that it wasn't going to happen, and as a result did start too far right on the negotiation. But it wasn't for any of the reasons that he gets smeared for here. And leadership is hard. You take some chances, make some bad calls. It is easier for people like Sanders who largely sit on the sidelines and criticize the people who are down in the trenches fighting the wars. Many (not all, I know some VERY dedicated activists who support him) of his supporters are like that too. They didn't pay attention until recently, and now they want everyone to drop everything because they have a bee in their bonnet.

I work in an industry dominated by young white males. Several are rabid Bernie supporters and are mansplaining superdelegates and the like to me. So I checked their voter registration to see how often they vote. One, 30 years old, voted in this primary and NEVER before. Another HATES Hillary and will vote for Trump in the primary if Sanders does not win. The problem is, he didn't even vote in the PRIMARY But they KNOW the system is rigged and yes, are ready to flip the table over in frustration. They can't seem to connect their behavior, the lack of interest and participation in the political system, with the bad things that are happening now.

Neither has much to lose. They are not killing it professionally but have a strong parental safety net to fall back on.

Well put.

I think this is less a Bernie problem and more a "Left" problem, and Bernie just happened to be in those leftist culdesacs that were too busy being pure to get shit done. Bernie did walk the walk back in the day, and if he had kept doing so then this conversation would be very very different. He had talent for sure, but he got sucked into the 70s emosocialist bullshit instead of staying in Chicago or Brooklyn to organize, register voters, work on local problems, and build connections with POC and other marginalized groups. That's where you turn "being right on the issues" into effective activism. He really needed somebody with actual organizing experience to tell him "Hey the Democratic Party isn't perfect but it's all we got so if you want a socialist party, do the groundwork to make the Democratic Party the socialist party"

Marginalized groups are less about pure ideology and more about who's fighting in the streets with them and making concrete action to help them. Sanders threw that away because he got fixated on pure ideology rather than a holistic approach to change.

it is what many, particularly in the African-American Group, have been saying since the being ... and being branded, somehow, as reverse racist and hidden, for our efforts.

It's true of moderate, "sensible" ones too, as much or more than the blatant ones like Trump.

Not unlike spiritual renunciates who advertise their status with robes and shaved heads:
"i have renounced the world and its egomania; i am more humble, more enlightened than the others"

or the apolitical who look down upon those seeming obsessed with the world of politics::
"how deluded they are; how much wiser am I"

or the fearful ones who dare not make a wave, or ride one: "how sensible I am; how practical; how much better am I than the others!"

alone. Why? Because he was a me too candidate, who was just as conservative as his opponent and set out to prove it. I also remember Gore losing his home state of Tennessee, which would've gave him the nomination. Didn't he also lose Arkansas, his former boss' state? You Hillary supporters are already making excuses for why she is a terrible candidate in the general, don't blame us, we tried to warn you for months.

Your post is Exhibit A.

Losing 3 states in the GE, that the candidate calls/called "home"

Romney lost :MI, MA & CA

Hillary might lose: IL, AR & NY

of Big Tobacco. The Clinton Justice Dept. had brought suit against the big tobacco companies--and was winning--and Gore wouldn't repudiate that policy. One of the first things Bush did on taking office was settle out of court for only a fraction of what the companies should have and would have paid under a Gore administration.

It's important to remember that Gore actually won that election, with more than half a million votes more than Bush in the popular vote. What he lost was the Supreme Court decision in "Bush v. Gore" -- a 5 to 4 vote -- which demonstrates the importance of who it is we elect to appoint our federal and Supreme Court judges.

And people stop eating at the resturant.

... to spite the face is on the menu and it doesn't look all that good to most dems.

You owe me a soda

Posted the same thing, about nose cutting, up thread at almost the same moment.

Don't forget to tip your server on the way out

Should be able to keep the resturant in business.

That only pays for a meal. You want to sit in someone else's restaurant, you still need to consider their rules, even if you can afford a meal.

No shirt, no shoes, no service. And if you are rude to the server, your ass still gets bounced.

to do the cooking. And you leave the dirty dishes for everyone else to clean up too, then trash the place on your way out

... primary that it was the DNC's fault as if the revolution had to wait on the DNC to do anything !!

that they did not vote in midterms in 2010 because the change that Obama promised was not happening quickly enough.

Do we laugh, cry or beat our collective heads against a wall? It does make me think I need to care less about this country. Bunch of f'ing airheads. Maybe they can't be helped.

California had good turnout in 2010 as well, that was the year California went full Blue in the Statehouse, Governor's mansion and all.
The places people did not vote were States with more 'moderate' and 'conservative' Democrats dominating their politics.

What State are you in? How was your turnout in 2010? Sounds like you are still trying to excuse your own failures. We did great. Whole West Coast did great.

Southern liberals what it is all about...... Y'all need to get out more. The South is a whole 'nother ball of wax. I know this because I grew up in Oakland and the Bay Area. The South is complicated, frustrating, but also achingly beautiful. It is never the way that pontificating, condescending blue-staters think it is.

NC broke the back of the GOP's solid south in 2008 when our electoral votes went to Obama. That was the culmination of nearly a decade's worth of work by various c3 groups, including NAACP, ACORN, Democracy NC, Blueprint NC, Working People Win, etc, etc, etc.... We organized our ASSES off, passed some of the most liberal election and campaign finance laws IN THE COUNTRY during that period.

The GOP laughed because how could such a motley assortment with no money beat them on their turf? And then we DID beat them. And they opened up the floodgates on us. 10's of millions of dollars were spent against us on that election, to turn back same day voter registration, publically funded judicial campaigns, all the little tweaks we pushed through the CONSERVATIVE Democratic majority at the statehouse. And young "progressives" must have bought the GOP bullshit because enough stayed home that we lost that election. After that, they were able to redraw the districts to suit themselves, and the next election, the GOP maintained a veto-proof majority, despite winning only 49% of the statewide vote.

Let's be clear about a few things. I have no real love for the Democratic Party. I think the two party system is FUBAR and should be thrown on the trash heap of history. I am more liberal than average on many issues, radical on a few, and by no stretch of the imagination a "conservative Democrat". But I care more about vulnerable, poor and oppressed people than purity. And guess what? We did not fail in NC. We lost a battle, but we are still fighting. I believe we will win, too. But it will not be an easy victory, or won on the back of a single politician. The fight is too long and too fierce for that to be possible.

Iraq as a business opportunity.

Yer welcome!

They had a trade fair in Qatar. They have defunded the consumers here so they are looking for new victims to exploit. In order for the rich to get richer, they need more people to work over.

I was moreorless quoting hrc

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1913975

You guys need a coordinated message.

She thought she could follow the most politically expedient path to the White House by collaborating with the Republicans and courting capitalists like Trump.

"Lazy thinking" is thinking that this time she will be different.

I won't vote for either of them.

wealth in this country has been concentrated over the last 30 years? I am perfectly happy to share global wealth with those who we cut out of the American Dream for a couple centuries now, and even to let it stretch thin to the benefit of people of third world nations. I am not perfectly happy with redistribution of the commons upwards to the global top 1 percent.

Your version of our complaint is truly disappointing.

And no, the lesser of two evils is not the better option, if it continues to move us further towards evil. If we are always presented a manufactured choice of having to tac right for fear of the country going even more right, and if we always accept that choice, then what changes, except that we continue to go right? If I thought the DNC and the Clintons were doing everything in their power within the system to affect positive change in the other direction, then I would agree with you, that the lesser of two evils is the better choice. If on the other hand, I think that both parties benefit from this game of good cop bad cop, and that the real winners are always the same, so long as the rest of us are willing to play the game, then no, voting the lesser of two evils is the same as voting the greater of two evils. There is no difference, except that it feeds a narrative that we are actually affecting policy decisions when we aren't, and it lulls a whole swath of our populace into the sense of living in a democracy.

If we continue to fight over the symptoms and not the root causes of our problems, both parties continue to benefit handsomely. They both work for the same people! They both take money from the same crowd. Donald Trumps candidacy is not some byproduct of GOP extremism gone amuck, it is the byproduct of two parties fighting a culture war for show, rather than truly tackling the economic disparity and uncertainty that gives fear and hatred its strength.

Lazy thinking was that Iraq or Saddam Hussein were any sort of existential threat to the USA...

Lazy hell, that was outright delusional.

Their benefactor?

The Clintons have been fine with him and of course their 2nd family the Bush's and good old Bill's W's brother by another mother.

Of course some seem to define right wing as anything that calls out the conservative Turd Way movement and their phony stars.

By the way: you are not suggesting that those who refuse to vote for Mrs Lesser-of-Two-Evils, those who are opposed to the SOS who worked actively to overthrow democratic governments, are now suddenly comparable to war-criminals, are you? If we are going to talk war crimes, let's bring up the Iraq War and who voted for it.

The establishment is the ULTIMATE privileged group.

If you're reasonably sure you won't be one of those people, you can go with something like this. But the people who realize they might be among the destroyed are not so privileged. Yes, privileged.

... something that other depend on

She needs to stop thinking about herself and drop out. If the FBI investigation doesn't get her, Trump will. Her role is fracturing whatever credibility is left of the democratic party.

progressive can run and beat Trump.

everyone to dig in then stop serving shit sandwiches.