I've been thinking of saying something similar, and I'm glad you got it together.

Maybe you should open your eyes and look at the way that the BS cheerleaders are flinging poo everywhere. They're acting like petulant children.

I've started to trash anti-Hillary hate OPs by Bernie folks, and yet they get replaced by new anti-Hillary hate OPs faster than I can get rid of them.

Sanders supporters did not force her to take millions in speaking fees and donations from various companies and military contractors. She can do bad all by herself.

That stuff is Right Wing that forced her to do that. Sanders is evil only because he talked about her doing the bad things. You are suppose to make shit up in a campaign not tell the truth. Like call Sanders racist like they did back in Jan.

if they benefit Sanders. Got it! Maybe I'll ask Brock for a big bag of money so I can get paid spreading rumors about Sanders.

Look at the whole chair thing in NV. Some drones still spout that as true. Or even the whole thing about Sanders being racist. Down in south here many other blacks I know think Sanders was just lying about protesting civil rights in the 1960s. Swift boating works.

Your T-Page is showing!

So your conspiracy theory holds no water.

And they exist on both sides, to be sure.

But as a Sanders supporter- and even before I had decided- i noticed a concerted effort to insult and smear the sanders people starting almost immediately after he announced.

Part of it always was, I believe, a fear that on actual issues progressives would naturally find themselves gravitating towards his positions, so it became very important early on to make the conversation about something else.

The Sanders insults only started after a long, drawn-out fusillade of anti-Clinton attacks. The only objective position to take is to talk about issues, not try to tear one candidate down.

Both sides, now, talk more about the opposing candidate than issues. But the Sanders crew are especially resistant to working as part of a team. Much like Sanders himself who has fewer endorsements than Ted Cruz.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

Notice the difference?

Issues? Hillary entered the campaign telling us that "the middle class needs a champion". If Sanders hadnt been in the race, that would have BEEN the extent of her talking "about issues".

The shit about "berniebros" started right out of the gate- the sanders camp was a hotbed of white supremacy, volvo drivers, mac users, fedora wearers. It was ridiculous, it was obvious, and yeah... it was deliberate.

But at this point it doesnt matter, does it.

Still, for the people here who live and breathe for overblown message board drama, this primary season has been manna from heaven. It may have dealt a mortal blow to whatever sense of community still existed here, though.

Remains to be seen.

The idea of 'attacking' a candidate was wrong from the get-go. This was supposed to be about issues, not opponents. Sanders supporters turned it into a mud-wrestling contest and to my dismay, too many Clinton supporters jumped right in.

But, yeah, none of it matters now other than everyone is still attacking everyone. It's a two-ring circus.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

and 'progressives' prove they are not that, in reality; easily slip into the role of 'bully.'

This is just the next battle between hardened camps who dislike each other. When the primary is over the topic will change but the sides will remain to troll each other.

For the 1%, that's a win/win.

past performance and deeds - the nicest Hillary supporters in the universe could not make me support Hillary.

We are not electing supporters.

Mock, belittled, and marginalize supporters you will need in November to win. WTF?

I actually believe they think the party realignment is over. If they are correct, they don't need you. If they are not... well then

isn't it? And these are supposed to be politically astute people.

Last edited Tue May 24, 2016, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

People post first, if possible, to receive positive recognition from people in their "tribe", and failing that will prefer negative recognition from people outside the tribe, which is still better than no recognition at all.

It's hardly limited to one particular campaign, btw.

It's insidious because the mind is good at rationalizing why we do stuff like this. "I really think if Sanders supporters just knew how much taxes would go up they'd finally see!" or "I really think if Clinton supporters just realized how shady the Clinton Foundation is, that would really rub the scales off their eyes!"

The human mind is an amazing thing but one thing it's particularly bad at is admitting to ourselves that people who see things differently than we do are sincere. That's why Kohlberg Level III isn't terribly common.

You don't get nearly enough credit for the qualities you bring to DU.

but the sour taste in my mouth, even tough I never openly will support a candidate but will push against BS propaganda, is such that I cannot make that case to the many youth that will not vote for her. I simply cannot. And one reason, is HRC supporters. And I include a few in the real world.

Either its over and Hillary is the nominee or it isn't over and the primary is still competitive.

As a Hillary supporter, this place barely resembles a democratic website at times with everything from the discussion of Bill's affairs to the obsession with the email investigation.

I know, we are winning and we are supposed to be nice. Your side could stop insisting there is still a race or doing things like posting Hilary attack pieces.

I am sorry - truth is truth. If one is ashamed of one's behavior then they should rethink how they are behaving. President Clinton's record is open for discussion on this site - especially when parts are used to defend Secretary of State Clinton's run for office.

If you would prefer us not discuss how President Clinton acted or voted, then Mrs. Clinton should stop using him in here campaaign and saying she will appointment him to act as Czar of [fill-in the blank].

As long as there is constant critique of Clinton you can't be upset there is critique of Sanders while he is still campaigning against Clinton.

I have no interest in baiting anyone. But many Bernie supporters are insulting and belittling a lot of democratic voters. It's one thing when they attack Hillary, but when the attack is focused on voters, it gets personal and requires a (harsh) response.

And that baiting everybody who backs Bernie isn't going to stop the worst of the worst.

A lot of us DO condemn the bad actors on our side(or who at least claim to be on our side). HRC supporters need to do the same.

If nothing else, stop the dismissiveness and stop treating Sanders supporters as if all are a bunch of spoiled children.

This is the type of miscalculation that will put Trump into office.

I cannot think of a single thing Hillary Clinton could ever say that would make me ever trust her. Or any other neoliberal, for that matter. They have done nothing but stick it to me and my family for two decades.

have to put up with the shit and lies and trash and garbage?

Feel more entitled after they lose.

And there has never been any issue you cared about that Bernie would have betrayed you on.

He's just as feminist as HRC...just as pro-choice...MORE anti-racist. You have spent months here spreading paranoia about and spewing hatred towards Bernie and he never did anything to deserve it.

I agree that some people who claimed to be Sanders supporters have said horrible things(and have condemned all of that).

But there has never been any justification for your seeming attitude that Bernie was indifferent to the things you cared about.

OR the claim that the social justice and economic justice movements are at odds with each other, when people in both causes have almost always worked as allies of each other since the Sixties(not that they were often in disagreement before that).

I want to defeat Trump...but if your candidate gets nominated, your side needs to make it possible for people like me to make that case. Just stopping Trump, by itself, isn't anything. And we can't win by reducing the campaign in the fall to just stopping Trump.

Anymore than we could ever have won in the fall of 1980 on the "it's enough to 'stop Reagan'" strategy the party insisted on using then.

Winning means firing up the base and inspiring the nation.

I have clearly stated many valid reasons justified believing as I do. You do not agree.

To me, what I have seen with Sanders and women, for you to suggest he is as much a feminist as Clinton is so very offensive. Like when you tell blacks he is an MLK. Sanders was in a march with 250k other people and one sit in. How many of us has done at least that? He votes well when a vote is put in front of him. That is ALL he has done, yet this campaign alone he has dismissed women consistently.

You do not see it. We disagree.

You and others think Clinton is evil. Valid reasons and you argue it. I do not see it. We disagree.

And he wasn't just in one march with 250k people. He was an organizer with CORE for years in Chicago(which was at the time about the most racist place in this country outside of Mississippi). He got arrested and roughed-up by the cops. You don't need to keep trivializing his involvement in that era.

Did he lead on race in the Eighties and Nineties? Not as much as he could have. But in those decades HRC didn't lead either(and in building the DLC, fought to put POC out in the cold and reduce the party to supporting the most conservative form of feminism possible). NO white Democratic politician led on race in the Eighties and Nineties

Bernie has never once dismissed women in this campaign.

And no, I don't personally think HRC is evil. I think she is to conservative and too likely to keep is in the current wars and get us into more. It isn't possible to make any major gains in the fight against bigotry(or any in the fight against poverty and exploitation) while your country has troops fighting in other places...that's why MLK and most of the other Sixties freedom heroes ended up marching against our continuing involvement in Vietnam.

Blacks and gays. Doing things for their future.

I adamently disagree. Sanders is my father and so many men that age, everyone should be treated equally but I believe he lives in privilege and entitlement and makes him deaf. We disagree.

Last edited Tue May 24, 2016, 10:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Sorry for not sucking up to Bernie supporters enough. It is rather difficult to do when Bernie supporters do things like calling Hillary a mass murderer (thread like that today, got hidden), or whine about how the election was rigged for Hillary, or post ridiculous "analyses" of Hillary supporters as uncaring and/or uninformed.

This is a national election. If you're a grownup and know what's at stake, you will move heaven and earth to defeat Trump, including voting for Hillary in the GE. If you want to stomp your feat because your guy lost, then no amount of friendly little notes from Hillary supporters will move you. It's your choice. Join the more progressive coalition (even if you don't like everyone in the coalition, including its leader), or allow the regressive fascist coalition to win.

The trolling and hatefulness directed towards Bernie and his supporters has forever changed my perspective.

A brutal election season in DU, to be sure ...

I deeply regretted placing some older members whom I used to respect on ignore, but the viciousness was simply too much to tolerate ...

Not sure what to do after November ... Amnesty?

Sid

It's been going on for months from both sides.

do.

Once the primary ends the Bermie or Bust people can't publicly proclaim it here.

I am not going to cry over a few people on DU are going third party.

Not here watching everything get posted 24/7.

The reason most of us are exploring other options is because we simply can't wait anymore. We've been waiting for over 30 years now and the Democratic Party has basically been telling us for over 30 years that Reaganomics is the way to prosperity. And when we bring up how Reaganomics has crushed the middle class and pushed more people into poverty, it is then that we are told to shut up and vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is. This has been coming for over 30 years. One little olive branch is not going to do it. We have reached a tipping point.

Hillarians just want to have the joy of making up stuff

and slinging invisible chairs in the air.....

They are REALLY concerned about California....

And if you let a message board make your decisions, you've got bigger problems.

Looking at the responses, however, I must regretfully conclude that it didn't accomplish much.

At this point, my prediction is that some (not all) Clinton supporters will continue to act like jerks. For example, they will continue to charge that a DUer with a five-figure post count might be a Republican plant (and then whine about a biased jury system as the only reason the post was hidden). They will devote more energy to attacking Sanders supporters than to discussing issues. Overall, they'll act the way they would act if they were the Republican plants, out to do what they could to reduce Clinton's chances of becoming President but without being too obvious about it.

I don't think they actually are plants. I think they're just very short-sighted.

Right off the top, given that it was acknowledged by the Admins a long time ago that 85% of the posters on DU are Bernie supporters (real or alleged), that means that 85% of the jury pool is BS supporters. As a result, HRC supporters have been voted into hides and timeouts – which in turn led to the jury pool being even more than 85% pro-Bernie.

This unlevel playing field, along with a biased jury system, has meant BSers being in almost total control of the site – which in turn meant that the most vicious attacks on HRC were “REC’d”, while anything even remotely critical of Bernie was hidden and its author banished to “flagged for review” purgatory for months on end.

So now that it’s apparent that Bernie will NOT be the nominee, the same posters who called HRCers elitist, corporatist-loving warmongers who don’t give a shit about their fellow citizens are supposed to kiss the asses of those who demeaned them, silenced them, ensured that they could not speak out?

Fat fuckin’ chance. First of all, given the RW talking points trotted out by many (alleged) Bernie supporters here, a lot of us don’t believe for a second that they are Democrats, or that they ever intended to vote for the (D) in November regardless of whether it was Bernie or Hillary. Posters who constantly link to RW sources to make their anti-HRC points (and often anti-Dem Party points) are who they are – and attempting to win them over is an exercise in futility. They were never on “our side” to begin with, and no one is going to waste their time trying to win them over.

The real Bernie supporters here are known. They’re the posters who promote canvassing and phone-banking for their candidate, instead of posting anti-HRC/anti-Dem Party rhetoric. They’re the posters who have consistently praised Bernie’s ideas and ideals, instead of demeaning Hillary. They’re the posters who encourage donating to Bernie so that he can continue his campaign, rather than encouraging others to see Hillary as a tool of Wall Street bereft of principles. They’re the posters who based their support of Bernie on his positives, instead of on Hillary’s negatives – real or imagined. They’re the posters who expressed their disappointment when Bernie lost a primary contest, but didn’t yell “FRAUD! THE FIX IS IN!” every time he did.

The real Bernie supporters are not expecting to be sweet-talked or wooed. They are the people who, recognizing that their preferred candidate will not be the nominee, are ready to put their disappointment aside and get behind the Democratic nominee in order to defeat Trump. They don’t require persuasion – any more than HRC supporters would have required persuasion had Bernie been the Party’s nominee.

Anyone expecting to be cajoled, sweet-talked, coddled, kow-towed to, or wooed into doing the right thing in November to ensure a Trump defeat is not likely to do the right thing in any event – and pretending otherwise is a waste of time.

"Unity" means getting behind the Dem nominee to defeat the GOP nominee. It is the responsibility of every individual to do so - it is NOT the responsibility of those who supported the winning candidate to convince anyone of anything.

(I hate them as much as you do)

And it's not about giving everybody the "you're a special snowflake" treatment.

All I'm saying is that HRC doesn't have enough votes to win on her own supporters and the Bernie people who would vote for her even if we got nothing in Philly.

If your candidate does get nominated, she also has to get the enthusiastic support of the large group of sincere, hopeful young people inspired by the Sanders campaign, who don't yet have a strong party identification, who could easily just drift away if they are left with the feeling(a feeling it sounds like you'd LIKE them to have)that the whole thing was for nothing, that they wasted their time, that the system IS gamed against their hopes and dreams.

We HAVE to have their votes in the fall. We HAVE to get them to identify with this party. And your dismissive approach has no chance of getting them to do that.

It's about wanting to make sure Trump is stopped, and the way to do that is to make sure that everybody's ideals and principles are honored by what happens between now and the convention.

The days of saying "suck it up...you HAVE to vote Democratic" are gone and gone forever. We, as a party, no longer have any right to expect that of anyone. Too many betrayals have occurred for us to be entitled to ask that. We need to change.

And we have nothing to lose as a party BY changing.

“If your candidate does get nominated, she also has to get the enthusiastic support of the large group of sincere, hopeful young people inspired by the Sanders campaign, who don't yet have a strong party identification, who could easily just drift away if they are left with the feeling(a feeling it sounds like you'd LIKE them to have)that the whole thing was for nothing, that they wasted their time, that the system IS gamed against their hopes and dreams.”

The only person who seems intent on having young people “feel like it was for nothing, they wasted their time, and the system is gamed against their hopes and dreams” is Bernie Sanders.

He has demeaned the Democratic Party for decades, and continued to do so throughout his campaign. Bernie wasn’t the least bit interested in bringing young new voters into the Party – he was only interested in bringing them to the polls to vote for HIM.

Bernie himself, his campaign, and his surrogates have repeatedly stated – directly, or through inference – that he is the “good guy” who has been treated unfairly by the Party and its PTB, that Democrats want to “surpress the votes” of the young indies who support HIM via closed primaries, that they have engaged in vote fraud in the states where HE lost, and that the Party is full of “corporate whores” who are part of the evil “Establishment” determined to keep the “good guy” from winning.

THAT has been Bernie’s message to these new young voters all along. HE is the one telling them, over and over, that the Democrats are bending over backwards to nominate a woman who is “not qualified to be president” and is merely “the lesser of two evils”.

Now that he’s lost the nomination, many of those new young voters will drift away, convinced by Bernie himself that the Party used its power to keep the better, more qualified candidate from winning.

Right now, I’ve no doubt that many of them are walking away, Bernie having proved his “point” that their support for HIM was all for nothing due to the corruption and back-stabbing inherent in the Democratic Party.

How to get those new young voters into the Party at this point? Well, the first step will be undoing the damage Bernie has done.

Please copy and paste this again as needed. Several times a week there are posts similar to the OP which make the same demands.

I got a chuckle out of one that I read not long ago which basically called Hillary supporters "assholes" and "sore-winners"... and then in the next sentence, he/she demanded that we show some respect to Bernie supporters. (Of course, this was predictably followed up with the usual threat of "you're gonna need our vote" ... as if mature voters actually base their vote on the fact that some anonymous individual offended them online.)



Alerter: These are my personal observations and opinions.

GDP has been nothing but rabidly anti-Hillary for a long time. Every, and I mean EVERY, RW talking point has been thrown at Hillary. Now that it's evident that Hillary will be the nominee Sanders' supporters are upset at the push back?

I find it ironic that you blame Hillary's supporters for the lack of unity when Sanders is so ungracious as to insist that he will take it to the convention floor and that it will be "messy". That added to the constant complaining about how the system was rigged against him. His latest? Making KY spend money recounting votes. Also, he continues to attack Hillary and the Democratic party, instead of pivoting to the real enemy: Trump.

Does that speak of a candidate who is interested in uniting the party? I just see a self serving candidate who cannot accept defeat with grace.

Shilling is lucrative and you don't have to truly believe in anyone to do it.
Just business, right Hilbots?

but an abundance of hubris, arrogance and political stupidity on full display.

Pathetically losing strategy for the General Elections.

Rigged jury system, trolling on the HC support forum, and endless ridiculous posts portraying Clinton as the most abhorrent politician who ever walked the earth? For a sample of the attacks, simply scan the titles of posts on this forum in the last few months.

Each Bernie supporter's vote is his or her own. They will make their decisions in their own way.

But after the countless attacks on HC supporters and on Clinton, I'm frankly not very interested in trying to convince Bernie supporters to vote for Clinton.

Because at this point, that is an impossible task.

And we have better things to do - donating time and $$$ to the Clinton campaign to defeat Trump.

They get points for being told to "fuck off" or ignore-listed and the Clinton cultist with the most points gets to touch the pant-suit.

Second prize is a new microwave.

Come on. Most of the abuse here on DU--not just in terms of posts, but in alerts/juries--has been from Team Bernie.

There is a reason the admins had to step in--the HIDES were blatantly unfair. And some of the juror comments--they were just vicious and unnecessary.

Why don't you "Start working for unity now," and put your loyalty to the Democratic Party first? You can see what the result will be, why don't YOU reach out and stop blaming and start looking towards defeating Donald Trump in the fall?

I don't wish any Sanders supporter who hasn't come at me with both barrels and a shitload of personal insults and rude invective ill. I always said Bernie was my 2nd choice. I don't care for the sneering and snide comments and labels that have been flung at me for simply not feeling that bern. So while I will welcome Sanders supporters to the HRC team, I'm not going to kiss any behinds to bring them onboard. They are adults--if they can't see, with their own two eyes, who is the best for the country and the world of the two left standing (and one of them won't be Sanders) then there's no talking to them anyway. You just can't "fix" that with pleading and up-sucking.

Back when she praised Nancy Reagan. I'll reconsider my opposition to establishment candidates in general (if you and the other pragmatic Sanders supporters make a convincing case for senator Warner, I'll entertain it), but this specific case: NO, NO, and NO again.

I've been around now for close to 13,000 posts (10K under my previous screen name). I am on the more conservative side of DU, which still puts me on the left side of the political spectrum at large.

Let's be honest: there has been plenty of baiting by both sides. Lots of lectures. Lots of people insinuating that if you don't support their candidate, you are really playing into the Koch Bros. plot to drown puppies -- very cute puppies.

I'm not going to try to sway you or sell you on anything. Simple statement of fact: Antonin Scalia will be replaced. If Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders is elected, the current Senate will likely run to confirm Garland before the new Senate is convened. If Donald Trump is elected, the replacement will be a Sam Alito clone.

The next President will more than likely replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Anthony Kennedy -- possibly Breyer.

That's it, because for all the sound and fury of border walls, free college, banning Muslims, breaking up banks, repealing the ACA, and whatever else you've heard -- not much of substance will be done other than SCOTUS picks (and God knows how long those will be delayed). The House will remain in GOP hands in all likelihood, and the Senate may turn Blue, but will be close to an even split. I think all three remaining candidates are pro-Israel enough that not much will change with Middle East policy. But the SCOTUS picks are the key to two things -- breaking the re-districting stranglehold that gerrymanders the House, and overturning Citizens United.

The key difference I see is this: Hillary Clinton is focused on policy and wants to govern very effectively. In particular, she wants to be the first woman to govern, which I think she sees as the next big step toward gender equality. Bernie Sanders is focused on class warfare. He wants to govern as a means of putting the screws to the so-called 1%. Hillary's supporters view her as a realist and a pragmatist. Bernie's supporters view him as an idealist and a visionary. So part of why we don't get along is that we have two factions that want different things out of this election, and don't particularly feel kinship with the other faction. I say "don't feel kinship" because "have nothing in common" is not accurate. Bernie and Hillary agree on most social policy points and are in diametric opposition to Donald Trump.

Then there is the issue of the primaries and the nominations. If a Sanders supporter is told of whatever vote totals and delegate totals are on RCP, and that those totals favor Hillary Clinton, they respond with some combination of a) the vote totals are a lie, b) the delegate totals are a lie, c) Bernie will ultimately have more pledged delegates, d) the Superdelegates will come around and all support Bernie. When confronted with the likely possibility that Hillary Clinton will be the nominee, Sanders supporters often (not always) respond that the game isn't fair, and they are taking their ball and going home.

It's the end of primary season, which is generally angst filled. My hope is that the coming weeks will see a rapprochement among our quarreling factions, and we can find a way forward to defeat Donald Trump.