all of the "sovereignty" and job loss and the other doomsday arguments are purely speculation.

My sense is for the "average American", the sun will come up, every day, and their lives will be unaffected in any noticeable way.

or you are not concerned about the consequences?

and I am very concerned about the consequences ... however, despite speculation and protestations to the contrary, the TPP has some of the strongest environmental protections of any trade deal in history.

I read in some TPP Environmental Chapter text (via New Zealand) this defining clause:

These "trade" deals have always been about one thing: shipping jobs overseas and depressing wages for those still employed back home. Average Americans understand this.

increasing wages in low wage nations (a component contained in the TPP)?

ETA: No ... what is clear you think you represent the "Average American" ... you do not. The "Average American" couldn't tell you what effect trade deals have on their lives (beyond possibly guessing that they make it so they can get stuff to buy) ... let along what the TPP is.

to understand the effect trade deals have had on their livelihoods.

Your attitude is not a surprise.

they are unconcerned ... that's what makes them "average."

And your attitude that everyone thinks like you is not surprising

See my post below - it will actually protect many jobs in WA state, which is why both our Dem senators and congress people voted in favor of it. And also why politically informed people here support it strongly.

that happens for the next 50 years is because of TPP, and anti-TPP will insist that it caused everything bad that happens.

Little bit here, a little bit there.....Pretty soon the economy is totally distorted to the top and the distribution of real power is likewise concentrated in very few hands.

Been going on for 35 years.

(I assume you know the boiling lobster metaphor, or turning up the heat verrrrry slowly until the lobsters u ltimately are boiled to death. )

That's called planning as part of policy.

If one never speculates aboiut the possible downsides of things, we'd do a lot of really stupid stuff.

Hell let's just elect Trump., He says he'll make America great. Let's take him at his word. What could possibly go wrong?

Hell let's just elect all Republicans. Why speculate about what might happen if they get carte blanch?

usually my buddies are immigrants from Cuba, SA, the Caribbean, or Eastern Europe. You may not appreciate the sources, but since you asked:

http://fortune.com/2015/10/27/tpp-good-for-small-businesses/

It will greatly harm Americans who work in manufacturing. It will hurt most Americans who work for a living by depressing wages as people displaced by the fallout flood the job market as their companies flock to countries with cheaper wages and low environmental standards.

It will help people who work in the financial, service, hospitality, entertainment and agricultural industries. Some goods may become cheaper but bear in mind companies will charge what the market will bear and happily pocket the difference in manufacturing cost instead of passing it along to consumers.

It will of course be a great boon to investors making the rich already richer and after all isn't that what this is all about.

Good luck outsourcing farm land, right? It's disturbing that .5% larger economy by 2030 is all the better the sunshine pumpers can do. I'd hate to see the low estimate.

and the world progress, and generally be good for us long-term in a world that is rapidly changing.

As to the "nullifying Constitution," that is pretty much junk. The provisions that people think will "nullify the Constitution" have pretty much been in every trade agreement since 1959, including trade agreements between European countries that we are not part of. Those provisions help countries attract needed investment, jobs and tax revenues.

As to environmental issues, I think Obama took care of that to a significant degree with his work with the Paris Accord. One can't expect trade agreements to solve every one of the world's problems.

Can the TPP be improved? You bet -- either by altering the agreement or negotiating other agreements such as the Paris Accord. But it is a good start.

I think Elizabeth Warren understands our best way forward is working to improve the world, not becoming more Nationalistic and adopting Trumpism like America First. That will just accelerate our economic issues here, not to mention isolate us from the world.

most of the sources of criticism remain pre-publication of TPP?

Now that we can read it ourselves, it still remains "Trade bad" mantra.

in the world who makes the stuff we need to survive.

looking for shoes and everything is made in asia or india.

And all of the smaller businesses that sell to Microsoft and Boeing. Because one of the largest problems they face is the theft of intellectual property. If it continues to be stolen by Asian entities without constraints the companies here will suffer and those jobs will be threatened.

Those jobs pay an average of $80-90K per year. They are good jobs with good benefits.

In addition, the apple farmers are very much looking forward to being able to increase their exports.

Just more uninformed conjecture? The idea is to sell more planes to China - not to sell less planes or build them somewhere else instead of here. It's a bid to get airplane orders from China.

How would that save their stockholders money? I think you're bright enough to figure that out.

They are adding a plant in China, not replacing a plant here with a plant in China. Why? Because it helps them win contracts for planes with the Chinese government, which is the actual objective (that is what airbus did to get Chinese government contracts).

And you can stop blaming Democrats for facing reality instead of sticking their heads in the sand. This particular example is NOT sad for our laborers. As I explained to you, workers in WA will benefit from the TPP.

And when a Washington State (my current residence) laborers lose jobs to the Chinese, it has zero benefit to them except short term unemployment benefits.

If Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell didn't need donations from Boeing and Microsoft, they likely would have voted for their residents and not for the outsources.

Because I know that those local companies provide good jobs and good benefits. And those good jobs and good benefits make this a great place to live. My brother in law works for Boeing. My wife is retired from Microsoft. My kid went to great schools funded by the property taxes of MS employees. Many of my friends and neighbors work for these companies.

And everyone I know that has benefited from MS and Boeing is more than happy that our senators support TPP.

We live in a global economy.

Where do you guys get this stuff from?

From The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/tpp-isds-constitution/396389/

They end around this because every check on the abuse is bought up too, essentially because they can.

i find that very confusing.

TPP Constitution


Also look what Bernie, Thom Harmann, Noam Chomsky, Ed schultz, Robert Reich and Bill Moyers have to say about it.

Here's a short video from Noam.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/vb.6622931938/10153750382481939/?type=2&theater

-90% Jimmy

Because ISDS cases will be in the US jurisdiction.

It's actually harmful to the states that AGREED to ISDS, because they will be fucked even if they have a legitimate claim.

The better question to me is what is the consequence of not TPP vs TPP?

The President did a fair job (he needs to do better) in explaining the impact of automation vs trade agreements in loss of jobs.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?406310-1/president-obama-joint-news-conference-canadian-prime-minister-trudeau

Warren isn't a fool. Clinton isn't even against TPP except in the judicial aspects and environmental aspects (the environmental aspects are paramount).

But it will benefit the big political donors so that's all that matters.

Until Americans start shopping Value over Price, Cost over Price, Local over Cheap, this is what we'll get.

I won't speak to the efficacy or lack of efficacy of any trade agreement but the demonization of trade by both the left and the right will not end well.

One of the main contributors to the economic depression that swept the world in the thirties and forties is that nations started to withdraw into their protectionist shells.

Building walls around our nation to keep out people and/or goods will not end well.

I pray my fellow Americans resist this noxious trend.