2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumNight and Day: Post-NAFTA Trade Deals Yield Steady Surpluses
By 2030, the world economy is expected to grow by roughly $60 trillion, with almost 90% of that growth occurring outside the United States. Meanwhile, the United States derives a smaller share of its GDP from exports than 38 of 40 of the largest world economies. There is no path to middle-class prosperity without increasing exports.
The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the largest trade deal in history, will soon be before Congress. Policymakers will rightly be asking: How does this deal help America, and how does it help the middle class? There will be attempts to compare it to NAFTA, but TPP is a far cry from NAFTA. The labor, environmental, and human rights provisions are considered the strongest ever. Tariffs are reduced on over 18,000 goods. And for the first time in any trade deal, there are standards for the internet economy, protections against state-owned enterprises, and rules to stop currency manipulation. TPP is, in fact, much stronger than any modern trade deal, and those modern dealsas we show beloware already delivering.
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Source: http://www.thirdway.org/report/night-and-day-post-nafta-trade-deals-yield-steady-surpluses
pipoman
(16,038 posts)By big business and industry, what could go wrong? Those guys always are concerned with the US middle class....JUST FUCKING TRUST THEM YOU LOSERS!
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)We can read the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement now. Form our own opinions. The negotiations have been finalized, now we can see what all parties agreed to.
Negotiations aren't detailed while being negotiated - if you think they should be, you'd probably be a lot of fun to play hi-stakes poker with!
What trade does for us and jobs here in US. Pick a state, any state:
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/united-states
pipoman
(16,038 posts)The labor party is dead.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)What is the trade policy you support?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)interfere with your opinion.
I'm sure YOU know what's best for all of us.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 4, 2016, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)
In fact have done so twice recently.
The TPP is not something I would buy.
TheBlackAdder
(28,222 posts).
Not bound by NAFTA, China undermines any attempts to bring reform. The same will happen with TPP.
They come into countries and buy raw materials at a lower cost than NAFTA nations, because they are not beholden to any of the human rights, worker's rights, investment and political reforms that NAFTA sets guidelines for. Many of those raw goods are toxic and have a high human impact ratio to collect and package.
Then, China comes back and sells finish goods to those countries below the costs of any local suppliers, driving many out of business, the lowering of employment then drives the demand for even more Chinese goods. This cycle further lowers the countries.
It's sort of like a Wal*Mart,with its government subsidized workforce giving an unfair advantage, moving into an area and undercutting all local shops, driving many either out of business or to fire employees. The lowering of the standards of living then force those displaces to rely on Wal*Mart for their goods, which further drops the area around the store.
TPP will do the same thing to all TPP nations, including the US. Without China onboard, it's a raw deal.
But, China does not want to become a signer to it, because they will be the nation that benefits most.
.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)is to influence the future with American progressive values, including labor and environmental standards.
If we don't, China will. And you clearly state you don't like their standards.
TheBlackAdder
(28,222 posts).
So while we're trying to influence regions, China undermines these priciples and money rules out.
They will become the predominate economic power in the TPP nations too. Dragging down each economy.
As it stands, TPP is a gift to China.
.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)with the Pacific-rim countries in TPP.
Our agreements include progressive American values - China's agreements don't, but when you have a big bully neighbor like China, and no agreements with other partners in the region, China will be pushing their values and advantages, including the ones you pointed out.
Question
Youve talked a lot about the U.S. writing the rules instead of China, but wont China just be able to join TPP whenever they want anyway?
Answer
No. The Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) bill makes clear that that no new country can be added to the TPP without demonstrating the capacity and will to live up to the high standards embodied in TPP, followed by Congressional approval.
TPA requires close consultation with Congress on any new TPP members, including a 90 day notification before beginning a negotiation with any new country, and another 90 day notification before an agreement can be signed with any new party.
And, of course, TPA requires a vote by both houses of Congress before a potential new party could join TPP.
https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-trans-pacific-partnership-eddc8d87ac73#.97ktyujb6
Rex
(65,616 posts)China follows it's own laws and thumbs it's nose at other nations. This trade deal will help them in the long run.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Most of the other countries in the area hate them because they bully their neighbors.
They took Putin to the cleaners on the natural gas deal. It is unlikely that Russia will get much profit from it.
China became empowered when it was allowed into the WTO by Clinton and Bush and it became possible for every manufacturer on the planet to do business there.
It's not just the cheap labor with absolutely no humane protections.
It's that China won't enforce any environmental protections or anything else.
Anyone who thinks that China will do any different under the TPP will be sorely disappointed.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Nice source.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)No more laughable than "RT" and "The Inquisitor."
Fringe candidates and policies fail at the national level.
We either live in reality or fantasy.
I choose reality. Plenty 'left' enough for now, in case you haven't noticed.
arendt
(5,078 posts)You can quote all the trade stats you want.
The problem with TPP and all deals with ISDS in them is that they put multinational corporations above countries.
If you believe in democracy, instead of corporatism, you cannot possilby vote for TPP.
The rest of your post is distraction.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Is it true that Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) would allow corporations to override laws, including environmental and public health regulations?
Answer
No. ISDS cannot change law in the United States or any other country. No government measure (federal, state, or local) can be blocked or reversed under the ISDS provisions or any other part of TPP. The United States would never negotiate away its right to regulate in the public interest, and we dont ask other countries to do so either. This is true with regard to public health and safety, the financial sector, the environment, and any other area where governments seek to regulate.
Put simply, ISDS is a mechanism to promote good governance and the rule of law. ISDS protects basic rights such as protection against discrimination and expropriation without compensation akin to those enshrined in U.S. law and the Constitution. We already provide these protections at home to foreign and domestic investors under U.S. law. Thats why although we are party to 51 agreements with ISDS the U.S. has never lost an ISDS case. Our trade agreements ensure the same kinds of protections to U.S. businesses and investors operating abroad, where they face a heightened risk of discrimination and bias.
https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-trans-pacific-partnership-eddc8d87ac73#.2toh2agh5
arendt
(5,078 posts)They don't change the law.
They sue the country for billions if not trillions of dollars. Then the country changes its laws.
It is extortion, pure and simple.
It is disingenuous to say "laws aren't changed by the treaty". Just like saying the robber did not grab the wallet from the victim's pocket. He merely pointed a gun at him and said "your money or your life". According to you, it was the victim's decsion.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"Maybe could be" is not our standard.
arendt
(5,078 posts)If the company wins, US environmental laws will be sued again and again until they are repealed.
It is not all speculation.
lTop 10 Most Pernicious Investor-State Dispute Settlement Lawsuits
You asked for evidence; I gave it.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)There is nothing but speculation and innuendo from 'bloggers' with agendas on these 'articles' passed around from source to source.
Yes, there are some cases. 'Creative speculation' does not apply!
TransCanada's actions against the Obama administration - makes one wonder...
http://www.oilandgas360.com/does-transcanadas-keystone-xl-pipeline-stand-a-snowballs-chance-in-court/
arendt
(5,078 posts)arendt
(5,078 posts)The government has lost some of these environmental challenges and has been forced to overturn legislation protecting the environment.
In 1997, the Ethyl Corporation, a U.S. chemical company, used chapter 11 to challenge a Canadian ban on the import of MMT, a gasoline additive that is a suspected neurotoxin and which automakers have said interferes with cars diagnostic systems. The company won damages of $15 million and the government was forced to remove the policy.
A year later, U.S.-based S.D. Myers challenged Canadas temporary ban on the export of toxic PCP waste, which was applied equally to all companies. Canada argued it was obliged to dispose of the waste within its own borders under another international treaty. However, the tribunal ruled the ban was discriminatory and violated NAFTAs standards for fair treatment.
randome
(34,845 posts)And they allowed the storage of PCP waste but only within its own borders.
In both these cases, with the countries of the world becoming more united because of trade treaties, does it make sense to have Canada-specific laws that don't deal with Canada-specific issues?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)A Canadian court subsequently found the act to be invalid under the Canadian law, and Canada and Ethyl settled the Chapter Eleven claim.
http://www.state.gov/s/l/c3745.htm
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Canada has lost or settled six claims paying a total of $170 million in damages, while Mexico has lost five cases and paid out $204 million. The U.S.,meanwhile, has won 11 cases and has never lost a NAFTA investor-state case.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Scandinavian and European countries. If a country wants foreign investment, jobs, tax revenue for social good, they gladly sign onto that aspect.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Amazing how far we've sunk.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Third Way is a Democratic and independent think tank.
They have proposals most DU'ers support!
Nice to see some "Democrats" are as rigid in group think as Republicans are.