I've looked at the polling in prior posts that leaves little doubt in my mind.

And I realize this conclusion isn't a shock to most around here. I mean the GOP party was pimping the biggest lying candidate in US election history.

But on top of what Frum said, there is some value in another conservative voice being added. Hopefully, it turns into a loud chorus

conservatives wrap themselves in a cacoon of what they wanna hear rather than watching actual news but... Joe needs to look in the mirror.

It does bring to mind the larger and more serious issue: the quality of the political media in general.

To some extent, the bogus GOP polls and the conservative pundit talking points didn't just affect FOX news - it poisoned a good portion of the mainstream media.

And that's been happening since before Obama got elected in 2008. It now seems to be standard procedure for the GOP to manipulate the "liberal media" they complain about.

They were successful to the extent that a lying SOB like Romney should never have been remotely close. And that began long before Romney was nominated - before McCain lost with the birther crap and all the other crap used to demonized and de-legitimizate Obama with bogus info or claims.

It's a pretty serious state of affairs when the great arbiter for democracy: the media, can be bought or so severely swayed in such a dishonest manner. All this election did was dodge that bullet. Anyone thinking this election stopped that crap is fooling themselves. Things like Citizens United need to get overturned and things like voter suppression stopped. On Remembrance Day, I'm sure the vast majority of dead soldiers didn't fight so that billionaires could buy elections and the vote of the average person could be suppressed. Those of my family who gave their lives sure didn't.

You willingly spread those lies, day after day, Joe and now you're caught and it's someone else's fault? Really?

Joe is a major component of the lying conservative media he is dissing. Does he really think he can wipe that crap off his shoes this easily? OK maybe he will, but really people.

A poll out of PA from a right wing hack showing the state tied. He spent the whole day talking about how the race was tightening while at the same time in Nate's model, showed the race tilting Obama's way.

In hindsight, I believe they lied to themselves. Hindsight is 20-20.

What worries me is the lessons they take from the election.

Will they view this loss as a tactical loss where all they have to do is fix their views on immigration -or- will they change their political views on health care for all, increase their tolerance of the practices of others (Gays, Muslims, Women's issues), and give up on this idea of trickle-down economics (we tried trickle-down economics long enough to see it doesn't work).

I saw the third episode of
http://www.history.com/shows/men-who-built-america

It was about J. P. Morgan.

In this episode, it described a process called Morganization.

My limited understanding of Morganization, from this episode, is the purchase of competing corporations within an industry, to reorganize them into an efficient money generating monopoly for the owners, to reduce costs, to fire workers through streamlining in the name of reducing labor costs, to have the remaining workers work longer and harder for lower pay.

This episode said the working conditions were much worse during Morgan's time than they are now. The episode said there was no comparison.

Even if a comparison is not fair, it is enlightening to know something similar happened in the past.

If I may be so bold, the difference now, companies now outsource work to foreign, cheaper labor or employ cheap, foreign labor. The effect is the same. The cost of labor goes down. The efficiency for the owners goes up. People work longer and harder for lower pay.

One can argue, with cheaper labor, products can be made more cheaply. This goes to the efficiency of production. When people in our country don't have work or can't earn enough to live on, it doesn't matter how cheaply the products can be made. One can't ignore the consumer side of the equation and focus solely on the production side of the equation. We need a healthy consumer class. We need a healthy middle class. We need good paying jobs for the middle class. The migration should be from the lower class to the middle class, not the other way around.

was the treatment of all the government projects as unimportant. Not making the point that government taxes were paying these men for the product...they didn't do it themselves just on a whim. I still don't understand how they kept ownership of the projects they built on taxpayers dimes...

I wrote this in another thread...

This new GOP talking point of "we were lied too by Fox News," is at best an oxymoron (if its spelled wrong then well I did it on purpose if it is spelled right I am a genius), but really it is not true.

I think they believed their own BS. In this case Faux Noise just repeated what the GOP was saying which was BS. Fact is they repeated it so much they all believed their opinions were fact. And that is sad.

Its sad because half of America is so out of touch with reality. Opinion is not fact. Everyone has opinions and most of them do not agree with yours. The GOP has a real tough problem dealing with this.

But the right wing news (term used lightly) outlets did not lie to their audiences, they just told them what they wanted to hear for two reasons. One they really believed it was true. Two - If they told the real story they would lose viewers and then lose money.

Being lied to by Fox is a tautology not an oxymoron. Bear with the grammar police a bit if you would.

Oxymorons are inherent contradictions such as jumbo shrimp or surgical bombing (or in more humorous vein, military intelligence or Australian culture).

Tautologies are redundancies in expression where the meaning of one term already is included in others, such as fundamental foundations or terrible catastrophes. Or indeed, Fox News falsehoods.

Not picking on you at all - just a wonderful way to use a trenchant expression in conversations with RWers, so it's better to get more technically precise.

You could make a case that the name Fox News itself is a bit of an oxymoron as Fox doesn't do what responsible people would define as genuine news, but a bit of a stretch since they do occasionally interrupt the fomenting of sedition to mention what's happening, in passing at least.

Sorry for the interruption.

Newt, Cain, Palin, just got involved in the GOP primaries to milk the system. They were in to push their books, videos, and to raise money for themselves. Even Newt took his Greek cruise mid primary to "get first hand knowledge of the Greek crisis".
Dick Armey makes $500,000 per year pushing his "grass roots" tea party freedom works.

showed rmoney in the lead. he knows DAMN well he cherry picked polls. it was HIS MISTAKE to assume
those outlier polls were actually correct. what an idiot.

Joe doesn't work for the right wing entertainment industry complex thing. His show, well mostly him, and a couple of others on his network do have right leaning views. But his network is deemed as a left socialist bordering on Marxist brain washing evil news out let. Even though we all know better but I am regressing and getting off point.

My point is the same as the post I am replying to. If Joe was lied to then he is equally as guilty of lying as all he did was repeat what the right wing groups were reporting. And they weren't reporting. All of them had the same polls people like Nate Silver and Sam Wong (I think it was Wong might be Wang and no I'm not making fun of him - this guy is just as good as Silver). Its called cherry picking and then asserting your opinion on the polls you wanted to believe. Big difference from lying.

Joe is just trying to save face but it is to late. Actually it was too late last weekend (the weekend before the election). He looked worried but did he ever try to debunk the GOP talking points? Ummmm nope! So if they lied then he lied too.

if I had a dime for every time CHUCK TODD said romney was working on "expanding the map" and
chose to cherry pick polls to tout that showed a chance to tie in NV, PA, MN, WI, and MI
then I'd be able to buy a 30 second time slot for a democratic ad in 2014.

And we'll broadcast that the RW polls and media got it right, Republicans won in a landslide and the conservative agenda is the law of the land.

After all, it's not about news, it's about making your audience feel good about themselves. All we would need would be some SuperPAC sponsored advertisers and we'd immediately have 47.8% of the population as viewers.

I'm brilliant! Now send me some money Karl and I'll get the ball rolling.

Although I won't be able to get corporate sponsorship then. I think Rove would still want to keep the loons under his wing.

you're part of it and although I never watch MJ, I bet we can dredge up lie or two you've told viewers.

standing on the outside looking in -- an innocent bystander. He thinks we don't remember his absolute insistence that Romney had the momentum and he was going to win big. He thinks he's clean and none of the shit splashed back on him. He should look in the mirror because he's covered in shit from head to toe.