Even if it makes you feel better.

I would love to be able to say "my truths without having to worry about how it makes you feel" but I am an adult and need to think about how my words affect others.

You should worry about how your words on an open forum make others feel.

Because some people feel uncomfortable.

Like black people should be able to speak freely about racism, if it's offends some fragile feelings, that is not the responsibility of black people

But it comes with repercussions.

Asking people to be silent is NOT OK on an open forum, especially if you offend others.

YOUR words are YOUR responsibility. Adults need to think about how they speak and how their words affect in an OPEN FORUM.

Last edited Sun Oct 9, 2016, 03:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Getting wrapped up in their ego and getting defensive. Those that do get defensive likely have enabled this shit. They don't like being reminded. Fuck that.

There are degrees to this problem.

Men who actually do it.

Men who say disgusting shit.

Men who hear this disgusting shit and say nothing.

Men who want to shame women into silence because they would never do such a thing and they feel a personal affront to their gender.

Men who get it. Aren't so thin skinned and understand and want to help... ( LOVE THEM)!

it's a culture, a sick one, that they are part of and they need to begin to accept responsibility for it.. Not close their eyes to it. Us women need to be vocal. TBH, and I know this is anecdotal, but I would be hard pressed to find one women I know that this hasn't been groped. Breast, buttocks or genitals. Maybe this is an eye opener for some of them and they never thought their friends saying this ever did it.. but this is not a problem of like one one hundredth percent of guys that do this... it's a culture that breeds predation and and almost every single woman has had it happen to them. Silence no more..

Hand. Many who have ever lived on campus know it's real. If they ever stood up for us they'd get it and be supportive and know women aren't talking about them.
This is enabling bullshit- and likely not the first time they enabled men in their assaults or abusive.

groped a woman and have no, zero, zilch, nada respect for any man that does, or would, do such a thing. I am a good listener, though.

If these stories make anyone uncomfortable, they might want to ask themselves why.

We men of DU are supposed to be receptive to the needs of others or at least I thought that was true. Seems just a general overall theme for progressives to follow or am I wrong?

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself.

Women get groped. Men don't.

But in the interests of accuracy, yes, men get unwelcome groping by men and women.

Nobody should put their undesired hands on another human being.

Women get groped. Men don't.

That is just a foolish statement.

Wouldn't it have been easier to PM the OP with concerns, maybe delete the thread is it bothered you so much? Strange behavior.

What she said was, "Please don't take women discussing their experiences with groping and sexual assault like a personal affront to your gender."

Well, OK, but you saying I'm not allowed to discuss my experiences is making me feel bad.

It's not OK. You are an adult and you need to stop saying that. (See how stupid that is?)

and get back to me.

Because you read it wrong.

Maybe you looked the other way once or twice too often?
Maybe you doubted or minimized a woman's story once- I'd not be surprised if that's the case given you're making excuses for silencing women.

Get over it.

Why should someone censor themselves when sharing a truth just because it might make someone on an open forum feel badly? That makes no sense whatsoever, otherwise no one could say much of anything of substance on an open forum.

Sexual assault is an uncomfortable topic. Good! It should be uncomfortable. What it should not be is suppressed as a topic.

I've been assaulted several times to varying degrees. I felt violated each and every time.

I was raped when I was 17. Violated doesn't begin to describe the feelings there.

We live in a rape culture. Period.

We have to do something about it.

Shushing victims because talking about it is icky prevents us from doing anything about it.

I'm not going to protect someone's sensibilities because they'd prefer to think this doesn't happen as often as it does, they don't want to realize it affects as many women as it does, or they might think I'm painting all men with a broad brush and take it personally when that's patently absurd.

I absolutely do not worry how my words on this topic might make others feel. I can damn well guarantee you their bad feelings don't come close to the feelings experienced by sexual assault victims. Sorry, can't cry for their delicate sensibilities one bit!

"I can damn well guarantee you their bad feelings don't come close to the feelings experienced by sexual assault victims."

BOO FUCKING HOO

Seriously, to try to dictate and silence women telling their stories of being sexually assaulted?

WTF is wrong with you?

If a general discussion about assault and harassment makes you feel bad, you need to ask yourself why. The responsibility is not on the women who speak about their experiences.

We can learn from all of it. Anyone who "feels wronged" by women talking about abuse they have endured maybe needs to look inward a little, it seems to me.

What they'll feel is angry toward male scumbags. At least all the good men I've known felt that way. They understood the scumbags hurt them, too.

My husband went DefCon once on a scumbag and told him just that - among other things. No, it wasn't to "protect" me. I wasn't there; heard it through the grape vine. I did feel smart; I'd made an excellent choice.

In this way and other ways.

they shouldn't be made to feel all icky.

make someone else feel bad.

And why should a woman describing how she has been groped make anyone else, male or female, feel anything but compassion for her and anger on her behalf?

The experiences of women getting harassed in our male dominated society is not an assessment about you or your feelings.

That is, unless you make it so. In that case, your feelings be damned.

When women point out how they've been treated by men as a class, the only proper thing to do is shut up and listen, and then after that, you stand with them, against that treatment. Shutting up and listening means that you've been presented with an opportunity to learn something, and acknowledging what's been said without whining about it means that you have.

As men, from our position of privilege inside of this patriarchy, we either benefit from it, silently acceding consent, actively accepting consent by whining and complaining that women are being mean to us and our feelings, or we take the better path and acknowledge their reality.

Women have their own normality within the realm of the overall patriarchy. Accept it.

Unless you've been mentioned by name, they're not talking about you. "Feelings," really?

Do not think or more importantly, act that way. It would be nice to have context also.

and I have been in some locker rooms and lived at the fraternity house. I never heard anybody say "grab by the pussy" and never heard anybody saying they could just do what they want like that.

So I have no problem with women exposing the assholes and predators around us.

scream "fuck them in the pussy"?

Is there anything you can do to help women change this culture?

feel this need to distance yourself from this.

Let me try this another way. No one says you know or knew anything about any such thing... but it makes it seem like this is not prevalent. Let me inform you. MOST women have been groped. That makes a hell of a lot of men who are gropers. Ok??

but I don't interpret statements about not having heard men speak or behave in that way as defense of themselves.

I take it as saying this sort of behavior should not be excused, as some are trying to have it, by the idea that "all men do it, it's normal." I interpret these men saying, "No, this is not normal, all men don't do it."

Your experiences need to be discussed. Be silent no longer.

Any men who get angry should direct it at the perps not the victims.

We had a serial groper at my former workplace. One woman slapped him in the groin and threatened the grovelling worm with certain death if he ever touched her again.

That worked for her but what got rid of him was one woman who filled a federal complaint that when to the top of the corporate ladder where his brothers couldn't protect him.

Silence is the pervert's best friend. So speak out and let it roar.

Oh god. Don't tell me they are. NOOO

PLEASE FELLOW MEN, SHuT THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN FOR ONCE

.


This whole MRA thing needs to be lanced, like a boil.

This even seems to be mobilizing evangelical and orthodox women, which are a crowd that embraces paternalism.

45% of evangelical and orthodox women voted against the ERA.



Times, they are a changin'


.

But I will say emphatically for me that I welcome any discussion regarding the experience of women with regards to how they have been treated by men.

As a person of color, I understand some of the challenges that I have had to face because of my skin color, my surname, and my language.

As a man, I understand some of the challenges that are presented to me. I also understand a great deal of the privilege that I have and some of the things that I have NEVER had to deal with because of my gender.

I would certainly like to engage in a dialogue about the challenges we all face, but I realize that the experiences of many women have been silenced and pushed into dark corners solely because it challenges the privileges that men have and make some people uncomfortable.

I know for myself, that I have never treated women violently. I also know that my attitudes and some of my behaviors have propagated the sexism and gender bias that still exists.

I am wanting to listen and learn. Speak freely.

Thanks for that.

They're fine, and we all need to read them and learn from them.

Sister, we do not need to ask permission of males to speak out and we do not have to take care of their "offended feelings" over this issue. Just Tell it! You have been bamboozled into taking care of men and putting them first.

and it's seriously.underdiscussed.

It's Trump's words that I take personally, as those words are an insult directed at over half of my immediate family, to say nothing about them also being directed at half of America's entire population.

And I know that Trump is only the figurehead for a larger movement of men who act exactly the same way, so I would never discount a woman's story about such behavior. It has become far too "normalized" in our culture at this point, much to the frustration of men like me who don't think it's appropriate to act that way towards women, ever.

I think the phrase, "If the show fits wear it" applies.

working in a non-traditional field, when I would walk into a meeting I would hear things like, "who ordered the taco with hair?" Or inappropriate questions asked about sex with my husband. Yes even being groped and kissed and not believed.

I found nothing offensive about that post, though I appreciate your clarification. Apparently, it's not enough for some. I'm a white male who welcomes your honesty. The only aspect of the feminist movement I ever found offensive is the "all men are pigs" extreme to which some have taken it. I read the survey of those who have been groped, and I obviously have read this one. The more informed we become, the better we should become.

We know that the majority of our opposite gender are all not Pigs like Donald Trump. We know that you care about your Mothers, Aunts, Sisters, and Daughters. Even as a Democrat, although many might not like this, I can say that even all Republican Men aren't like Trump either. I say that as a Democratic woman married 42 years to a Republican husband. He NEVER would have lasted this long saying the things Trump says about women, and especially about his own two daughters. Even as adults, they are still his baby girls.

No turning blind eye cause 'he' would never do such a thing.

That seems to get lost with many

Women should be able to speak openly and freely about anything and everything without concern about how it may make the weaker sex feel. They are their experiences, and if talking about them openly helps, then godspeed I say.

In fact, I posted this on Facebook becasue I was completely sick of men's reactions to this BS going on right now:

To all you "men" who are posting this shit excusing Trump's comments and behavior and comparing it to 50 Shades Of Grey, locker room talk or just the way guys are, let me tell you this. If anyone treated Kimberly the way Donald Trump treated Nancy O'Donnell, or any of the other women making these claims toward him, I would take care of them very quickly. And, most of you "men" have women in your lives, and I would like to think you'd defend their honor too.
Maybe I'm wrong and you're truly sniveling little pieces of shit who would let another man treat your lover that way. But, I would truly hope not. So, before you post another stupid meme making light of the shit Trump has done, maybe you should stop and actually think about that. How would you feel if someone did that to the woman in your life? Try to be honest and not make it about political gain.
PS: I would defend any woman's honor if it happened around me for that matter. Stand up for what is right.

and confronted.

It is directed against those insecure males who call themselves "alpha males" as if these insecure immature males have a right to act out their insecurities an immaturities.

Thank you for posting this, and it is truly unfortunate that it must be said.

Their need to be justified in acting out their insecurities and immaturity. That others would validate their appalling behavior and then feeling wounded or hurt when they get the opposite reaction.

Clearly it's an important conversation.

The first part of "Sexual Assault" in his case clearly was about gender and no man on this site should be surprised that a lot of woman have experienced similar or worst, no permission or apology is need for woman to express them selfs on this subject. The second part of Trumps action is in my mind should not be over looked that of "Assault" I am sure that there a also men on this site who have experienced an Assault sexual or otherwise in their life. Be we be Man or Woman Straight, Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgender or Asexual we all here should be able to denounce Trumps actions and listen to those here who have personal experience with similar events in their life.

it's appalling to find out it has happened to so many of you. I'm sorry that happened to you. It's a very sobering realization. I'm especially angry to hear when it was an adult doing that to a child.

I don't find it an affront to my gender. There are many assholes in this world. I wouldn't want to be associated with the likes of Trump or be viewed with suspicion. Just like many women would not want to be associated with the female teachers who prey on their students.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I totally get that a woman's fear of being sexually assaulted will always be more significant than my fear of being viewed with suspicion.

If you're in the mood for something lighthearted, this is relevant to the discussion:

words, and behaviors utterly vile and reprehensible, so anything that shines a light on this garbage will help continue to move us forward as a society.

... I take no offense to discussions about unwanted touching or sexual assault because I have never done either.

K & R

I like to hear/read different people's experiences.