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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Thu Oct 20, 2016, 03:55 PM Oct 2016

What the New James O’Keefe Videos Show and What They Don’t

By Ed Kilgore

-snip-

Not being an election lawyer or someone trained to spot misleadingly spliced video material (something O’Keefe has been accused of in the past), I am in no position to make a comprehensive assessment of the whole project. But it is reasonably clear from viewing O’Keefe’s first two videos that one of them is basically about an ethically dubious Democratic tactic that is not actually illegal, while the other is about a hypothetical illegal activity (cooked up, it seems, by O’Keefe) that does not appear to have occurred.

O’Keefe’s first video focuses on two independent contractors (Robert Creamer, formerly of Democracy Partners, and the exceptionally loquacious Scott Foval, formerly of Americans United for Change) working for Democratic groups who spend a lot of time boasting about their success in planting people at Trump rallies. The plants are designed, with their words or attire, to provoke violent responses from Trump supporters.

This is indeed news, and something the Democrats involved should be ashamed of. Perhaps they should even lose their jobs (as the two principal targets of the video actually have). But deliberately making oneself the target of violence (1) is not illegal and (2) should not obscure the fact that the people committing the violence bear at least half the blame. There is no constitutional or statutory right to listen to your candidate rant and rave about criminal immigrants and Muslims and various “losers” and “rigged elections” without being exposed to the presence of someone who visibly disagrees — even if someone put them up to it.

The only illegal activity this video really alleges is that of forbidden coordination between the Clinton campaign and various “independent” pro-Clinton entities. But the main evidence of that is the use of the term “bird-dogging” for the violence-provoking actions at Trump rallies and the use of the same term in Clinton communications stolen and made public by WikiLeaks. As the Washington Post’s Dave Weigel points out, “bird-dogging” can refer to all sorts of tracking and engagement operations other than those which court violence. So this guilt-by-association proves nothing.

The second video, by contrast, is all about illegal activity (though not necessarily the “massive voter fraud” O’Keefe, with his signature overdramatization, keeps talking about in the narration). But it revolves around a hypothetical scheme for getting illegal votes cast that O’Keefe seems to think of, which is then batted around by Foval, turned down by his alleged co-conspirator from the first video, and batted around some more by a third operative who is himself AN UNDOCUMENTED ALIEN! So whereas someone sympathetic to O’Keefe’s case might conclude it turns up shady talk worthy of investigation, a smoking gun it is not.

-snip-

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/what-the-new-james-okeefe-videos-show-and-what-they-dont.html

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What the New James O’Keefe Videos Show and What They Don’t (Original Post) DonViejo Oct 2016 OP
Uh, it might come as a surprise to some, but "dirty tricks" used to be common. tonyt53 Oct 2016 #1
The "plants" are irrelevant, IMO Nevernose Oct 2016 #2
Yes even it if is true the trashpot lovers didn't have to respond the way they did... Cakes488 Oct 2016 #5
How can words or clothes provoke violent response? frazzled Oct 2016 #3
Good short explanation underpants Oct 2016 #4
 

tonyt53

(5,737 posts)
1. Uh, it might come as a surprise to some, but "dirty tricks" used to be common.
Thu Oct 20, 2016, 04:00 PM
Oct 2016

During the '88 campaign I worked in conjunction with the DNC on a disruption of a Bush rally. Two days prior, I witnessed a RNC trick on Dukakis. They had a girl about 10 walk up to Dukakis and ask for his autograph on one of his signs. Then she started yelling "baby killer" over and over.

 

Cakes488

(874 posts)
5. Yes even it if is true the trashpot lovers didn't have to respond the way they did...
Thu Oct 20, 2016, 04:36 PM
Oct 2016

I also find it curious that these "paid rabblerousers" said they wore Trump is nazi and planned parenthood t-shirts..I mean wouldn't that just give you away and wouldn't it be obvious? For that reason alone I have serious doubts about this accusation...plus I understand a deplorable dirtbag produced it.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
3. How can words or clothes provoke violent response?
Thu Oct 20, 2016, 04:14 PM
Oct 2016

Violence is never a justified response to someone's words or clothing messages. Just saying, for the record. Do not blame people who say or wear something for violent attacks against them. We have a constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom of speech in this country.

So are you saying it would be understandable if someone came to a Clinton rally wearing a pro-life T-shirt (say, at the behest of a Republican operative) for the crowd to physically attack them? Because I would say that would be very very wrong, even though such T-shirts irritate the hell out of me.

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