That's what is being discussed, essentially, with HRC representing the Third Way, and Sanders/Warren an alternative.

That's the real discussion...with the primary as a reference.

without noting how fucking WRONG that is.

And the bro's ought to try and find a different way of making their point by not fucking tearing down the woman.

I have criticized William Clinton here for his conservative tendencies, his corporatist tendencies. I have criticized other center-right Democrats for the same thing.

Fair or not, Hillary Clinton IS tied to William Clinton's policies, especially those that she strongly supported. But I am not saying that her policies and beliefs are identical to those of William Clinton. She is more to the left than he is/was.

But I also feel that President Obama, with his promotion of the TPP, has failed to recognize that, employment statistics notwithstanding, many workers are feeling the pain of 30 years of wage stagnation.

While Trump, with his "Trumped up trickle down", has evidenced no real understanding of how to address wage stagnation, he talks as if he has a real plan. And unfortunately, as Lincoln once noted, you can fool some of the people all of the time.

I don't think it's at all a matter of you can fool some people all of the time nearly as much as it's "If you repeat a lie enough, people will believe it."

And FOX is the Volkisher Beobachter of the 21st century.

was more literate and nuanced that American counterpart.

Trump is arguably a step below Coulter.

garbage.

It's unfair, the Third Way is long gone, and most people have moved on.

it also has been one of the major points which has caused people to say the GOP and Democratic Party are indistinguishable. It also is the one tangible reason why a ton of Democratic votes flipped in what were once very reliably Blue states.

If we can't be objective. Unfortunately, I see very little objectivity from Secretary Clinton's most ardent supporters. When any criticism of her campaign or her philosophy is dismissed as "tearing down the woman" it seems pretty unlikely that we will be able to correct our obvious mistakes.

I wish the Clintons had the decency to just disappear for a year or three.

Last edited Fri Nov 18, 2016, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)

the garbage of "3rd way", well the candidates Bernie supported didn't fare very well.

That includes Feingold, Teachout, Sanchez, and Kim

It is interesting that when at least 10% of the Sanders supporters refused to vote for Hillary, that seems to get lost that that segment actually gave trump the election.

When Comey came out 11 days before the election, and the republicans and media, including the fake-news from the social media, lied about that situation by saying the "email investigation was being reopened", a lot of damage was done, but even with that, if those Sanders supporters that refused to vote for Hillary, instead voted for her, we wouldn't be dealing with a trump presidency right now.

In Michigan Hillary lost by .3%. Jill Stein received 1.1% of the vote. Same garbage in Wisconsin and other states.

With out a doubt the FBI garbage did damage, but it was those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for Hillary, they are responsible for what happened.

Do they also share just a bit in the responsibility?

It seems to me that if, a big if, but if the Democratic Party could craft a more inspiring message, they might be able to find more support among those who feel, right or wrong, that there is little difference between the two parties.

This nightmare can be the end of America

that conservatives found a way to get in a row boat and row in the same direction. It was sickening to watch, frightening to watch. But they largely rowed together in same direction.

Democrats did not. So now we not only don't have _____ (fill in blank with your preferred Dem pres candidate), we don't even have ANY Dem headed to WH next term. We don't even have a sane person headed to WH. Constitutional rights are at stake.

So go ahead, fight over who has the best row boat to get in. But don't complain when we find ourselves in icy cold waters with nowhere to go but down with the Titanic.

This notion that he would have won DESPITE the fact that he got FEWER VOTES is nonsense. In addition to the fact that his vetting only scratched the surface - he would have been chewed up and spit out by the trumpsters.

Oh, and this is DEMOCRATIC Underground. Bernie is not a Democrat.

It isn't Bernie's fault that she lost. If anything, he did more actual work for her campaign than anyone that posts on this site. Take that to the bank.

And its stupid to speculate that he might've won. He lost the nomination. That is that.

Get over it.

that's how he got a knife in his back from the GOP.

To worry about over the next 4 years than who had the correct philosophy.

time to think about 2018, lots of new primaries to handle for people who like primaries, we got work to do

DU is even fully back up yet. Give people a little time to think about what happened.

The Hillary Group and the Bernie Group to just talk amongst themselves and let anyone bringing up any negatives for either candidate to be banned from posting in the groups.

As a result we all deluded ourselves into believing that both candidates were flawless and only talked to each other - we were preaching to the choir.

We really needed some cross pollinzation to consider the negatives so we could have built strategies to alter our campaign strategies and perhaps not taken things for granted.

When the primaries were ended and we had our candidate we believed our own rhetoric that Trump was a loser and really didn't want to win the presidency; that the Repug Party was in complete implosion and wouldn't survive and the Dems were going to win in a landslide, take the Senate and make a big dent in the House.

As such we lulled ourselves into a false sense of security and perhaps didn't do what we should have to really win this election.

Now looking back on this election like Monday AM quarterbacks we all have the answers as to what went wrong and what we have to do in future elections.

We squandered the best opportunity in decades to really take control and do what is needed to truly make america great again.

We are finding ways to blame Comey and the FBI; Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC; Bernie and his supporters; Hillary and her campaign, etc, etc, etc.

I think the biggest problem was that we didn't have a legitimate discussion amongst ourselves because we didn't want to hear anything negative about our respective candidate.

I hope the powers that be here on DU re-evaluate isolating groups here on DU and allow in the future all dialog - no matter how contentious it may get - so perhaps we can come to some consenses as to how to win as a Democratic Party.

Sorry if this post is offensive to DU members. This is just my opinion as to what we might try better to do in the future.

I'm not sure where you were back then

and flagged en masse. And I don't think that it is debatable that it was even on both sides.

Where we went wrong was when it was allowed to be infiltrated by people, who come to find out, weren't ever going to vote for her... Go see JPR if you need evidence.

And I agree there were some crazy Bernie supporters who were out of control against Hillary.

But Hillary people were never banned from that general primary page. I don't think there was any banning from the general primary page-- that kind of was against the idea.

On the other hand, I was banned from the Hillary group, for posting one relatively mild criticism of her.

(For the record, I was an early Bernie supporter then happily switched the Hillary when she won.)

The question is, how to handle that, next time we have a Dem presidential primary.

But for now, we have bigger issues in stopping the insanity of Trump.

this really does present a challenge for admins and moderators in how to promote productive communication when various sides of a legitimate debate are unequally represented.

i would maybe quibble with you as to whether "stopping the insanity" is a bigger issue per se, since in 2018 and 2020 we'll get our chance to do this electorally, which means preceded by and colored by the Democratic primaries. however i think i understand your intent in saying this.

instead - most everyone - based on their respective candidate - retreated to the sheltered groups and just talked to each other and blocked out opposite views. It's just my personal belief that this wasn't healthy for DU.

I did the same and now looking back in the spirit of a postmortem - these are my comments.

didn't like dealing with their abuse and retreated to the Hillary page.

Was there more support for Bernie than Hillary here on DU and around the country? Did Hillary people that retreated to the Hillary page not want to deal with this reality? Did they instead delude themselves into thinking that it was in the bag - because they only talked to and listened to each other?

Now I'm not singling out only Hillary people. It very well played the same with the Bernie people.

It almost sounds like Congress. The Dems only talk with the Dems and the Repugs only talk to the Repugs - and never the twain shall meet. As a result we have entrenchment of beliefs and never come to a compromise position for the benefit of the country.

I'm bringing this up because - in my opinion - we fell prey to the same.

Again - I'm not trying to dis either the Bernie people or the Hillary people here. I'm just offering some constructive criticism in the spirit of the postmortem so that we can perhaps discuss this as rational people and perhaps develop a better strategy going forward.

I absolutely detest Tiger Beat groups

are not to be found in the Dem orimary arguments. I've posted this elsewhere with parial lsts that merely start to name some of the enemieswho have created the current problems. And those real enemies are delighted over all the infighting among progressives.

I am so glad when I see a post like this, and there are a number of them. But unfortunately there are a number of posts re-hashing the primaries.

People, Democrats -- and progressives in genetal -- will never get anywhere with this game of infighting. I know our posts are not as public right now, but this represents what is happening among progressives across the nation.

We will be stuck w/ majority of red states and three red branches of government at the federal level if we don't get out s**t together and fight the real enemies. So ... I'm about to pose these thoughts about BOTH major Dem candidates of the 2015-2016 presidential campaign:

Like Bernie? Believe he's got the right ways? Then realize that you will NEVER have Bernie or anyone like him in office as long as voter suppression, vote tampering, and a biased FBI (=no investigation of trump, not just comey fiasco) and all the other ILLEGAL and UNETHICAL stunts the conservatives continue to get away with.

Like Hillary? Believe she was smart with policy and savvy in dealing with Congress? Then realize that you will NEVER have Hillary or anyone like her in office as long as voter suppression, vote tampering, and a biased FBI (=no investigation of trump as well as Comey fiasco) and all other ILLEGAL and UNETHICAL stunts the conservatives continue to get away with.

Move on.

but there's no point in killing ourselves over it either, and a lot of shit in elections is just out of our control.

For some it will be simply that too many people in this country either fell for, liked, or acceded to the crude vulgarities and sometimes hateful campaign promises of Trump, and they happened to live in the places that counted.

For some it was the media, or Comey, or the Internet.

For some it is the electoral college system.

For some it is the small but still critical defection of dissatisfied voters to third parties (or simply not voting).

It is most likely a combination of all of the above. Each is perhaps necessary to discuss, but none is sufficient.

I think what the OP is asking to be put aside are the irrational or contentious arguments that (a) Clinton didn't campaign hard enough or wasn't inspiring enough; or (b) that this would all have been different had Bernie Sanders been the nominee (with all the attendant myths and misconceptions that accompany that position). Those should END NOW.

Look, I'm at the point where it doesn't matter what happened. And it won't help to theorize about it from our armchairs. The next election will be different anyway. What we do need to focus on is how to stop the worst depredations that will come from a Trump administration. Rehashing the election is useless.

I guess the only thing is was the election even fairly won?

But the Dems never seem to challenge that, unfortunately.

The other big issue-- since a big deal is made out of this-- whether the Dems can appeal to rural voters better.

More technically, was there really a problem with the Dem ground game?

How can Dems use the media better?

Also-- are we in fact in a post-fact world???

At least for very large swaths of the population. And that goes for the left sometimes even, as well as the right. Do I sound elitist? Lock me up.

We are swimming in an information glut, and only a tiny portion of it is real. (And no, I can't even discern the real from the non-real sometimes.)

That was unprecedented and unpredictable and there's no way to fix it for next time.

Or just the ability of the rightwing to manufacture scandal?

It is not possible to run a perfect campaign or to be a perfect candidate.

Yes, what the FBI did was manufacture scandal. They suddenly announced they had 650,000 more "pertinent" emails without even checking them to see if any really were pertinent. And though the database of previously discovered emails was already set up, and the computer only needed a day to compare the new ones with the database, Comey took 9 days before he let her off the hook. Then he dropped his second bomb with only two days before the election. It contained the words "not" and "criminal" but "criminal" is the word that hit the target.

"Trash this thread"

what posts rehashing the primaries?

... then we need to learn those lessons, which requires sober discussion of the primary.

Not to point fingers or to indulge in unproductive speculation, but to become stronger and more effective.

"Stronger Together"

Don't divide us into groups here on DU. Let the discourse flow and let the chips fall where they may. Don't shelter us from each other. (see my comments above)

Hell, I was all for Bernie in the primary (Bernie was my avatar) and I was ejected from the Bernie Group for straying an inch away from the acceptable dogma. I was ejected from the Hillary Group as well. I was not being uncivil in the least, but people who sequester themselves in Groups are essentially sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA I can't hear you!"

We also have to remember that DU is only tertiary to the real world. The lessons we need to learn should be focused on the actual primaries and how they're conducted at the state and national level, more than rehashing squabbles in an internet forum.

Last edited Fri Nov 18, 2016, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)

on this very site - had to go into hiding to discuss our support for Hillary..

Bernard's supporters still spewing that garbage about it being stolen --- so pardon me but if the lies continue to be part of the discussion and the threads stating Bernard would have beat Hillary can continue....not going back into the internet closet.