why? This type of stuff goes on all over Washington. It's called politics.

If you believe that "both sides" are equal in their lack of ethics and willingness to sabotage then you I pity your uninformed jaded prison.

The facts prove otherwise. For example look at the rate of the use of the filibuster by Republicans in the last three years.

There are lots of examples that are based in fact. For example the faux 'debt ceiling crises' shows clearly that under the same circumstances in reverse Democrats (and previous Republicans) passed up the cheap short term shot for the benefit of the country.

are equally corrupt, as if that makes them the ultimate political analyst......


:palm:

(Thanks for mentioning some facts. When I'm faced with that kind of generalized negativity, I usually can't think of any specifics---that's my usual problem. I need the innertubes so I can check on details.)

There are little back room meetings that go on all over Washington, focus groups, whatever you want to call them. The goal is to undermine the other guy's agenda. The Rethugs do it, the Democrats do it. Look around you, what is going on right now.

Thats like saying grapes and pineapples are both fruit so all fruit is the same. Both the Allies and Axis powers used guns during WWII but they were not similar.

Both are trying to win but that's where the similarity stops. There are two completely different types of 'loyal opposition'. When Democrats like Senator Kennedy were out of power they still tried to find basic areas of agreement and share the success because it was good for the country even though it would help the other side somewhat.

Its called comity. Rather than trying to block absolutely everything all of the time you pick your battles and when it is better for the country you join with the other side.

There has been no comity, there has been an unending effort to sabotage the government itself as the abuse of filibuster and the phony debt ceiling crises shows. These aren't used equally by both sides, and those are the facts.

Your "both sides do it" is an extremely juvenile argument and quite frankly, very Republicanish in flavor.

If you really believe that then what is your purpose at DU?

I suspect that plans were being made well before the night of the inaugural festivities. I am sure that the GOP was already well at work on the 2010 election & the 2012. This is what they do and political strategist of all stripes do for a living. It would be perhaps a bit naive to think this wasn't going on, this is kinda the way of their world.

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:34 PM - Edit history (1)

So naturally, their water carriers Beck and Rush got up and mewled how they were being mistreated...



Didn't stop a number of city and state CoC's from breaking ties with the US CoC to wipe the taint of corruption from their local offices.

By completely ignoring the significant mandate the President won, they bullied their way back into power in 2010. As dispicable as they are, they are much better at playing politics than we are. They know just how dumb the people are and they have no qualms about using it to their advantage. I wish we played as cutthroat as they.

then we could broadcast more truthfully and intelligently, and not *have* to resort to disinformation and manipulaiton.

bush. It's been this way even on NPR.

but it still makes me so very angry. They refused to even give him a chance.

giving the other guy a chance. This is about the acquisition and maintenance of power. Both sides are playing for keeps, this is no game here. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but you keep on playing.

Naw, they probably took them off while they all talked and ate cupcakes while sipping on koolaid.
One thing that is worth noting, is that particular meeting took place before the invention of the tea party, the mythical political group that the Kochs bankrolled, and the MSM spotlighted as being "patriotic citizens" who were "concerned" about the country.

The first "tea party" meeting they held here in Boise, Idaho in 2010 only drew about a dozen people that spring.
It took months and months and 100s of e-mails to get more than 1000 to show up for a gathering in August, in order for them to look like a disgruntled majority of citizens.

Yet, we have bigger crowds that show up for the minor league baseball team's home games that are played here.

Nevertheless, even if they would have had 100,000 people show up all at 1 time, that still would only represent about a 1/15th of the registered voters living here.
So, it was a major failure on their part here in I-dee-ho.

inauguration speech, the R's would be conspiring against him. This is not surprising at all.

correct.

Did you really expect them to "work in a bipartisan manner"? Good grief. Many of us knew from day one they were going to obstruct any progressive legislation, and as i expected the Dems were more than willing to water down bills in exchange for trying to get them to appear bipartisan. Credit where credit is due. The GOP has always been better at this game than the Dems. Hell, look at how much W was able to shove down our throats when he never came close to having 60 Senate votes.

The idea of comity, of a 'loyal opposition' that picks its battles and tries to find agreement to better the country is an essential ingredient to a functioning democracy.

People have ideological differences and there's nothing wrong with standing for those ideals in tough situations. Technically we're not a democracy, we're a representative republic and as such lawmakers are supposed to represent their constituents, so you can't really always expect them to go against their constituents will just to look like a "loyal opposition".

If the Dems had acted as a "disloyal" opposition after 9/11, maybe we wouldn't have had the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, among other things.

Technically there are no real democracies except in the chaos of Baghdad where a neighborhood of 51% Sunnis turns and runs out the 49% Shias.

Technically democracy would be absolute majority rule.

In modern Western styled democracies constitutional provisions allow for minority rights and have only succeeded where the minority doesn't abuse those rights.

Giving the Republicans "credit" for an undemocratic tactic of 100% obstruction and urging that we debase ourselves into copying their worst tactics is the worst possible advice.

Your second sense doesn't make sense because in the first part you are arguing that we are not a democracy but in the second place you state that they can't be expected to go against their constituents. Which is it are the representatives democratic elected by their constituents or not?

In any case you still have not perceived the historical American trait to NOT elevate partisan fielty to a religion but always keep partisan ambitions within the larger construct of the 'greater good'. This is what the country has had since the begining, since John Adams served as defense counsel for the British solidiers accused at the Boston Massacre. He didn't take the hyper partisan tact but did what was right and in time Americans saw that he was right and elected him Vice President under Washington because while they knew that he was very very partisan they also knew that he would also cherish what is good for the country when it was required. For you to salute the Republicans in going against this outstanding American tradition by giving them 'credit' for planning an absolute campaign of obstruction is perverse, not supported by Democrats in general (who want to rise to a higher standard than Republicans), and would eventually face punishment by the electorate in the same way that the Republicans are about to face. In the end it is a losing strategy, so no I don't give the Republicans any fucking credit for it but you are free to do so.

yes, we are a representative republic whereby the lawmakers are expected to represent the views of their constituents, not of the majority of the country or the majority of even the state they live in, so as such it should not be surprising if a majority of their constituents were to oppose, say health care reform, that they vote against it. This was ultimately reflected in the ballot box in 2010 when Republicans only lost a handful of House seats. They didn't face any punishment then. There's nothing undemocratic about that. Should Democrats have voted for privatizing social security in 2005 in the name of being a "loyal opposition"? I have no idea what you mean with that phrase, hence why i brought up the Iraq reference. Democrats were a loyal opposition in that case, and look where that got us. I don't believe in bi-partisanship just for the sake of it, i believe that lawmakers need to make clear their ideology when they run for office, and if people agree with them and vote them in, they should be expected to do what they promised. Why shouldn't that standard be applied to both parties? You seem to believe it should only apply to Democrats. Not exactly a very democratic view.

And no, this doesn't mean i'm "saluting" Repubs, i'm just stating reality. The GOP has always done this and yet the Dems can never seem to get their act together to stop them. See 2001-2007.

But we won't. Our Dems have little or no spine.

Bake

It's odd that DU would be outraged by this. The CW here is that Dems don't do this kind of thing enough. So why would anybody be bothered that Republicans do it? This is how things work. It's trench warfare.

They demand we do what they want, yet refuse to work with the POTUS on any issue.

GOP - Domestic terrorists.

Sociopathic and proud of it.

to the country and organizations like Foxnews eat it up and sell it to those same people.

...that Faux News is the only place they're getting "fair and balanced" info - just those words alone was a brilliant (though evil) manipulation tool, and that's only one tiny tool in a toolbox jammed with manipulative messages and dumbing down techniques.

The most hopeful thing that's happened to break through is actually the insanity of the right itself - it has become so over-the-top that even mindless drones sense that something is wrong.

imo Dems should have hired first-rate Madison Avenue gurus decades ago to combat this stuff - and with the Hollywood connections and know-how it makes no sense that they haven't. (Unless the manipulation and dumbing down works for them too.)

...quite out in the open with Rush Limbaugh rallying the troops from Bush's defeat.

The only difference between then and now is that they had to be "fuzzier" about it because they didn't have the full crew of loonies in congress. It was outsiders (e.g., Richard Mellon-Scaife bankrolling the Arkansas Project, and the endless parade of bullshit "Clinton Scandals" until they found something with enough leverage to try to oust him outright.

what's that about?