But he could show up at my front door with flowers, singing the ""look for the Union label" song, and I would not even open the door. And unions are just a tiny small part of the extreme crapitude of these "trade" agreements.

thoroughly in 2008 should do this. It may cost Hillary the election. I guess they think we'll 'get over it'. Good let them think that. Bernie knows better, and the Unions are lived.

to make up for this disgusting betrayal of our home, planet earth.

By "it" I mean any or all of TPA, TPP, TTIP, TISA. And I will have a real strong influence on the voters in my household, and some acquaintances. This will be my personal grassroots project. Looking forward to it, really.

Owe us an explanation Why they Say Bernie is a "Crazy, Factually Wrong Socialist" on Our issues!

Having been a Democrat my Entire long life...I am (at this very moment) nearly willing to swear off ever voting Dem again!
bastids.

over to the Rs a no vote allows them to put the final nail in the coffin and ushers in fascism like we have never known it before. The passage of the TPP+ groups (all of the current trade bills) will have finished the Empire and to elect the Rs again completes the plan.

And we have to rescue ourselves from this because we do not have anyone to do it like we did for Germany.

not perpetuate the status quo. And with Sanders, we have that option.

operative word is winning. And I agree Bernie is the closest we have to getting a different perspective on the issues but he has already looked at running as an independent and decided for various reason including money and campaign resources he was better running as a Democrat.

Look I would love nothing better than having a party large enough to win with Bernie's ideas but as you see the media never talks about him without all the negatives they can insinuate. We do not have time to get a new party started and familiar enough to the people to win. We are stuck with the Democratic Party structure this time. And I do not have much hope that we are going to change that in the near future. Mostly we just talk about it.

I'm advocating for a complete overhaul of the existing one. The Masters of the Universe took over the party after Carter and Clinton entrenched it away from populism, towards naked capitalism and it's been there ever since.

What the traditionalists, the beltway boys/girls, existing monetary and political structures don't understand is this is a new campaign. You say you've been around since FDR, well I've been around since Eisenhower and been into politics for a LONG time and never has there been a campaign like this. This is a TRUE grassroots movement -- it's Revolution (hopefully) without the bloodshed. So, it doesn't matter if the MSM doesn't take him seriously because we don't need them. Social media is on fire with young Sanders supporters and they're doing a phenomenal job of spreading the word. Feet on the ground is what is going to win this election for Bernie sanders and all that Wall Street money will mean nothing.

conundrum.
We have had Dem control. We have had GOP control.
We Have elected "Dems" to "save us from them" only to find out how Much they participated.

Does party affiliation really matter anymore to our politicians?

We keep slipping further into the abyss because TOO Many Democrats We elect...while "we" laugh at the GOP Base for "always voting against their own best interest", are working With the GOP to do this.
To do the same thing - to hold our nose and vote for a stinky Dem - for the False Sense of Security that Somehow "they" will Protect us from the GOP is nonsense.....also.

Bernie all the way. I feel I have Nothing to lose at this juncture.
Not voting is not the option I suggest. I will Write in my preferences if they are not on the ballot.
I'm done with status quo. I'm done holding my nose. Too many years of That approach NOT working out for Any of us...I can No longer Expect or even Hope for Different Results..not this time..by repeating the same mistake.
Too disappointed from the Last "Great Hope".
As a voter, I will have my say.

affiliation - we have not been able to trust anyone since 1980. In fact I don't think we have had the kind of Democratic candidate we could really trust since Jimmy Carter.

What we do have is two branches of the Democratic Party: FDR Democrats (progressives) who believe in Keynesian economics, civil rights and the safety net vs Third Way/DLC candidates who talk about Democratic policies but are really talking about trickle down economics with only a show of support for civil rights and safety net policies. They put everything on the table to get their deals through.

In this primary - thanks to Bernie we have a real choice. To not vote in the primary is to surrender. And that includes any form of " I am not going to vote" argument. Any vote that does not help decide to outcome of the election - primary or general - is a "not voting" option.

I think that our problem in selecting democratic candidates is that we do not demand the kind of straight talk we are getting from Bernie. We don't pin them down to what their real stand on the issues is.

We should have asked President Obama "Who are you going to appoint to your cabinet and what are you going to do about economic issues. When he told us he was going to fix NAFTA we should have asked him "How are you going to do that?" For the most part we did not. Instead we listen to speeches and read what we want into them. Most of our candidates are hiding so they do not have to answer those questions. That has got to stop.

saying is happening today...I'm saying over the past 5-10-20 years the landscape of those paying attention has Increased.
"We" didn't arrive "here" overnight...or over one term of Any POTUS or Congress.
I hope..I am correct in assuming..we are at a crossroads of The Majority of "all" Americans "seeing" what Is and has been going on by all of "them".
I agree with you. 100%

is happening to them and those around them - thanks in large part to Bernie. That is why they are eager to listen to him.

It's Me.
I get going on a thought and expect everyone to know me personally...and thusly understand exactly what I mean.
Why I hate "flat-screen-itis"

I share some of that optimism.
What our neighbors have been able to do in Latin America gives me hope for the World.

"A developed country is one where The RICH use Public Transportation!"
---Mayor of Bogota

The DLC does not have a terribly good overall track record. They've lost tons of governors and state legislatures.

Might be kinda clouding whether or not it would work.

Despite the joks and laughter at his stage persona, Ventura turned out to be a decent governor.
He hired/appointed competent professionals (instead of family & cronies) to run the government.

Minnesota did well under Ventura, certainly better than his Republican replacement, Tim Pawlenty.

to my severely disabled daughter. He soon learned to listen to people like me and backed off that one. And he was the reason that Pawlenty got elected next. Minnesota did well IMO not because of him but despite him. This state has survived because it already had good laws put in place years ago. Those laws are still holding us together.

That sounds like a good governor.
Most Governors couldn't even FIND The People with a bloodhound.
Jesse did OK, and while YOU attribute the survival of Minnesota to previous good laws,
it DOES require a Governor to run the place, and, as you admitted, Minnesota was in pretty good shape after Ventura, and he didn't try to tear down those laws.
SEE: Scot Walker....right next door.

Please post information backing up your claim that Ventura caused Pawlenty.
A few links will do.

AFIC, you currently have one of the best governors in the country, Mark Dayton.

was known for its excellent programs to help this group and here was a man trying to tear it down. And as I remember it we had to fight to keep a lot of our laws in place. And he continued to change his mind after we would all get together and scream. He was working to reduce the size of government and the services it offered. He had a lot of opposition from the people.

And you are right he is way better than Scot Walker. Walker does not listen to anyone but the Koch brothers. Ventura at least had a goal that he thought would make Minnesota better. IMO Walker's goal is to destroy everything he touches.

I do not have links since as you point out it is my opinion that Pawlenty won because of Ventura. And I agree Governor Mark Dayton is the best.

I was a bicycle fanatic while I was there. Minneapolis/St Paul (and on up to Duluth) have some of the very best Commuter Bike Ways in the country, and what a great way to see the city.
I was working for the Wellstone Campaign out of the University Ave office when he was killed.

It hasn't been the same since.
A couple of years later (after Katrina) we packed up, moved South,
and started growing our own food.


[font color=firebrick size=3][center]"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone[/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

your gardens are doing better than our have the last couple years. We are also trying to raise some meat and egg sources. In a couple weeks I have to go out to the farm and take care of the animals while everyone else takes a vacation. I only hope that at 73 I can do the job.

And BTW I agree this Democratic Party is not the one we had and it is not necessarily the one we need either.

If we could sell them, we would be RICH.

It rained ALL Spring, washed out most of the seedlings in a downpour,
and the ground id STILL too wet to work. we are planning a late season for beans ans squash,
and might even try another tomato....but it is getting late.

We usually use an established Planting Calendar, but those are useless now with the Climate Change.
We just hope that we can adapt fast enough to use our modified calendar for a while,
and we will be hedging our bets with the planting next year.

Cheers.
I feel like I have another Minnesota friend.

late coming and cold. We are not getting planted soon enough. But we can deal with that if we ever get used to it.

....is NOT the same Democratic Party we have today,
and each year that passes, and each betrayal of the Working Class & The Poor
diminishes my enthusiasm for a Party I once loved.
Gawd, but I miss that old Democratic Party.

Why the hell do we need "New Democrats" anyway? :shrug.
This will ALWAYS be good enough for me:
FDR Economic Bill of Rights

And that's Why I am No Longer a Democratic Lackey for Their Benefit...and "we" get Zero in Return.

I've had Enough of the "We're not perfect, but We're Not as Bad as Them".

True enough, but:
Dear Dems in Leadership...
YOU ARE NOT AS GOOD AS YOU COULD BE! You Are Less Than What You Were.
Your Ever Increasing Sick Greed has Poisoned Your Souls! You are No Longer Good Enough For This Voter and Her Family/Friends. You are out of time to make a difference...I won't even buy your "fake populism" positions at this juncture.

Dammit, Dems! It's just Too Damned Late. You blew it. Years ago.

We have some serious issues facing our country and our world and sadly it is nothing that a well delivered platitude or photo-op will solve.

They will tear what is left of our fragile democracy to fragments, and most will assist those doing it for a share of the take.

In the end, all they really care about is themselves. They work hand in glove with those who cause the problems, then turn around and claim to know how to fix them.

"Just need a little more money. This time for sure."

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Until the last river runs dry.

Seeing the actual words is worse than even what Sanders and Warren could convey. Really scary. It is a long term, corporate take over of the economy masquerading as a trade treaty.

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 02:35 PM - Edit history (1)

which is a completely different agreement. You can still edit your title to reflect the actual subject of the article at your link.


ETA: Thanks for correcting the title. I'll leave this post in place, since it has more than one reply.

Not just one "agreement".

if the actual agreement is misidentified. Why would someone dilute their argument and give the appearance of not knowing what is actually being discussed. No effective argument can be made if it is made against a misidentified issue.

Thank gawd for WikiLeaks and the rest of the Whistle Blowers.

actually read articles before posting them. Not if you are actually following their progress, either. They're only confusing if you're not paying attention.

You go read the thousands and thousands of pages from every "Free Trade" deal since NAFTA,
and report back on what they say.

You say that anybody can understand these deals if they just read them?

Most elected officials (Congressmen and Senators), have "translators" and "lawyers" to help them "read" these documents.

but the title said TTP. They are completely different issues. The OP corrected the error in the title. I fail to see the problem. I said nothing in favor of or opposed to either agreement. I simply corrected an error. It's interesting to see the reaction to that, I think.

can understand these legal docents if they just read them.
I'm STILL laughing about THAT "error".

I would venture to guess that less than 5% of the American population is capable of reading these labyrinthine documents.

I only have a Masters Degree in Literature......and I can't make consistent sense of them (or what has been released bu Wiki.

These documents are indecipherable to anyone who is not a full frontal, junkie.

I'll read a lot of it, and I won't have any problem understanding it. But others who are even better at interpreting such documents will be reading it and commenting on it. I'll be listening to those I trust to provide unbiased analysis of the TPP. There are people like that. It will also be analyzed by people who will provide faulty, biased interpretations. I know who those are, too, on both ends of the political spectrum.

I don't expect people to read the entire thing. I won't. What I said is that there will be a good deal of professional analysis. I'll be reading that, and would encourage others to do the same. But only after the final agreement is made public. Right now, all there is is leaked drafts.

I don't know when the final form of the TPP will be available, and neither does anyone else. Only then will we know what is being voted on by Congress. I will be very interested to learn what's in it. We all should be.

BTW, I also have a Masters in Literature. But I've continued my education ever since in many different areas. I can understand international trade agreements just fine.

....or so you claim.

You must have a bunch of idle time on your hands to wade through the complexities of these Trade Agreements,
and still post on DU what seems like 24/7.

During my work day for a few minutes. It's a break. I seem to see you here, too, quite a bit. Is that a bad thing?

Somehow, you seem to have missed what I said, though.

...during the Summer from 1-5PM (or when it is raining) because it is too hot to work outside for this old man.
I'm running a little late tonight because I'm having so much fun.

DU is open in a browser tab on my PC all the time. No matter what I'm doing, pressing alt-tab takes me there if I want a break from my current web content project. I'll spend a few minutes on DU and go back to work. It's a break from writing. Right now, I'm in my living room. My wife is napping on the couch, so I'm on DU on a Kindle Fire. I don't watch TV. When I finish this reply to you, I'll return to the book I'm reading on the Kindle. Later, I'll drop back in to see if you replied and to check the hosts forum to see if I need to do something there. I'll repeat the process a few times before going to bed.

I hope my schedule meets with your approval.

and a meeting with some Sociological and Psychological experts,
and a Psychic,
plus checking the stars and moon alignments,
it appears your schedule is fine,
though the Egyptian Psychic said she would have to call me back tomorrow
before she is absolutely sure.

Good Night!
(Seriously)

TPP only has 12 or 13. They are completely different in nature, as well. Accurately identifying what is being discussed seems to me to be a worthwhile goal. If someone mislabels concerns with TISA and causes confusion when another person clicks through to the link, the effect of the concern is severely affected.

It doesn't take much to understand the difference between TISA and TPP. They are completely different and affect completely different issues. The title of this thread should be changed, just for accuracy and relevance.

Neoliberal giving away of our democracy and sovereignty. The bastids have no shame.

actual thing you're trying to protest. Arguments from ignorance are never effective, and mislabeling the thing you oppose is a sure trigger for your argument being discarded for not being about what is being protested.

Protests should be accurately made, if they are going to have any effect at all.

Save your "sage advice" for someone else. I'm not impressed.

I'll continue to post replies on DU as I choose. I've been doing that for some years now, and plan to continue. If you don't wish to read them, you can skip them or even use DU's Ignore feature. Sorry, but I'm not going to follow your advice to stop posting. You replied to my post, which was directed at the OP of this thread. If you reply to me, you can expect me to respond. Pretty simple, really.

The OP corrected the title, which was the only thing I posted about. I'm glad. The post now makes sense.

Some of us, anyway, do appreciate them.

I know that there are many on DU who value accurate information. I try to point out factual errors, and simply ignore comments from those who don't care whether information is, at least, factual.

but to make a completely reasoned argument requires a reasonable amount of accurate information. Not providing that is an undeniable part of these global trade agreements.

And they make us pay the lion's share in getting that water to them all...What a conspirator cock up........

Many of the Latin American countries have successfully taken their governments back from the Fascists. What they have accomplished in South America are near bloodless ballot box revolutions, and the Oligarchs owned 100% of the media in their countries too.

They managed to form a successful revolution by Word-of-Mouth and local organizing.


When America's Working Class & Poor realize WE have more in common with each other than we have in common with the 1% and their Mouth Pieces in Washington,
we can have change here too!

As long as they can keep the country divided with "Social Issues", the Status Quo will prevail.

Economic Justice, Equal Access, and Equal Opportunity will solve most of America's Social Issues.

are able to continue their constant sedition, as ever, apparently US-backed.

All that we need to know about it we already do. If it needs a companion bill to help the average person then the bill itself is HURTING the average people of this world.

How can this be? When lobbyists, and government officials looking to become lobbyists, and elected officials looking for donations, and positions after leaving office, combine their intellects to produce a bill, I expect nothing less than a staggering achievement.

Especially when their work can be done away from having elected representatives being able to look over their shoulder.

needs to be hounded out of office, if not voted out.

The CDP warns off any possible challengers. She is, however, gettin' on and, at some point, she'll retire and California has a DEEP bench of progressive replacements.

represent the interest of its members. By that I mean, California is deep blue (now) but we still are given choices like Feinstein and Pelosi. Feinstein!!! California could have been sending Warrens and Sanders candidates for quite a while. Boxer is ok, but not nearly the contributor she could be with the might of a state like California behind her. We have our red pockets, but timid, establishment campaigns have not revved up the the huge amounts of liberal support that exist in this state. And that is entirely ON PURPOSE.

are numbered. Progressives have the momentum and Boxer will be replaced by Kamala Harris. I'm guessing Feinstein retires in 2018 so there will be an opportunity there as well as the governorship to get some REAL progressives. I doubt anyone will challenge Pelosi this time but her days are numbered nonetheless.

Feinstein is as corrupt as they come, which means the party apparatus that protects her is corrupt. We cannot rail against Republican graft when our party does it too. Pelosi as well; she is compromised by her shady stuff in American Samoa. I look forward to voting Kamala Harris and I hope she goes and kicks some ass in Washington. That is what I expect now because that is what we need to change the course of our path. Moderation is not going to cure the patient right now.

what will you do if elected in 2016?

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Can't you Fix the headline?

Without that correction, these types of tactics are clearly using Rovian tactics against a Dem nominee. How low can one go?

***Note....corrected

If this were an honest mistake, own up to it, fix it and move on. Looking forward to the correction.

**** corrected after my mistake was pointed out.

with Mineral Man about TPP versus TISA. It was 99forever, not Peacebird, arguing with MM.

Let's hop the op fixes this the when they get back on line.

I will correct my previous posts

Everything is not about HRC.

Instead of agreeing to these sweeping trade "deals," we could open our markets on a case-by-case basis. This large scale agreements seem to have a way of costing us jobs and making us nothing but a market for cheap crap produced by people who make pennies a day.

are not cheap, nor is it easy to rig the commodities markets to make them cheap. That leaves low cost manufacture and the removal of tariffs and regulations as the only option for meeting the demands of capital investors for ever increasing rates of return, regardless of the external costs to everyone and everything else.

*Withdraw from ALL so called "Free Trade" treaties

*renegotiate new treaties with each individual country that grantee minimum wages, benefits, Human Rights and safe working conditions....everywhere, including the USA.

*Control the Balance of Trade with Tariffs.

*If a country is in gross violation (like Colombia killing all Union Organizers) ,
we pull-the-plug.

*rebuild our Industries and Resources at home as a matter of National Security.

to give the corporations control over our legislature. There is no give-and-take, no quid pro quo. This is a take-take-take by the corporations.

The parasite corporations are no longer satisfied with sucking our blood, now they want to eat our brains too.

TPP is like taking out a 30 year mortgage, but you don't get any house, on the promise that it will build your credit rating.

Fuck that. TPP stinks. You know why? Because it is exactly the sleazy hose job it appears to be.

It's not complicated.

All neo-liberal free trade agreements are developed to insure the power of corporate royalty. Next they will require all citizens to bow as their vehicles drive by. It's not enough that they cheat you out of your national wealth, they are going to rub it into your face.

No fun being lord and master if you can't get the slaves to humble themselves.

"Trust me"is the mantra of the con man.

and it seems that the free trade neo-liberal con artists have the confidence of quite a few Americans. Once they have the confidence of their marks, they have the marks' money.

If only we had taken to heart the rant of Ross Perot in 1992. These new deal are NAFTA/CAFTA on steroids.

The fact that Pelosi and Obama have been solidly behind this, the fact that Hillary refused to declare herself for or against, is a sad commentary on the Big D Democrat Party in the 21st century.

But they are both about replacing sovereignty with corporate governance.

Say noting about the corrected heading and the narrative doesn't match the new heading.

I'm beginning to see a pattern of Bernie supporters making knee jerk posts trying to bludgeon Hillary with manufactured shit and misleading articles.

Haven't read them, and afraid i won't have time til much later. The grandbaby just arrived for a visit! Also, I posted this regarding Obama, not Hillary.

you are being willfully and disingenuously mistaken. The has been opposition to these things for years.
This is not about Hillary, this is about global corporate ascendance over countries. So maybe give it a rest about the Hillary stuff. And if you think that anyone is going to say they love these crappy deals just because Hillary had a hand in them - nope.

By the way - the GOP fucking LOVES these agreements. So that RW talking point thing is useless. We have been addressing this stuff for years; try doing a little searching.

Both TPP and TISA aren't good for "everyday" Americans. They're both great for the wealthy. People who feel that is bad are going to respond similarly to both agreements.

Why Clinton? Well, she kinda had this job involving all US foreign policy. And held it during some of the time when these agreements were being negotiated.

or narrative that discusses or points to Hillary in any way, shape or form. There is a mention of Obama -- who is pushing these trade deals -- and later a mention of Pelosi. Nothing about any Clintons, anywhere that I can see.

Nothing in the narrative contradicts the title.

Personally, I'm beginning to see a pattern of Hillary supporters making baseless personal attacks on Bernie supporters. I was subject to one just yesterday when I was called "vulgar." I do see that at least you removed your personal attack when you referred twice to peacebird's supposed "lying" for failing to correct the title in your timeframe, and your claim that peacebird argued with mineral man's pointing out the mistake instead of correcting it while peacebired was offline.

and even if the leadership of some of them won't commit to Bernie, who voted against it, yet, their membership is doing so by the thousands.

Think of the SC and vote for Bernie is the best advice for those who were betrayed regarding the TPP. Bernie will make sure we have SC justices who, if this gets to the SC and it may as it appears to violate our Constitution, will rule in favor of the people and their Constitutional rights.