All campaigns use thousands of unpaid volunteers, and I am yet to see anyone here saying what you just said.

and volunteers who aren't and don't expect to be.

that would be okay?

There's a fundamental difference between a volunteer and an intern, and language matters.

I guess you missed the fact that a lot of internships are unpaid, and people go into them knowing they are unpaid, just like volunteers do? I'm not saying it's right, but it exists.

In many cases.

A volunteer leaves when they feel like it.

If intern leaves they can flunk out of college. Oops. Not good.

Interns should be paid.

Intern and volunteer are fundamentally different roles.

In fact most are not. And you don't "flunk out" for dropping a course. You simply make up the credit.
Reign it in, dude. Try to keep it within the realm of believability.

There's also a second deadline for dropping a course at all and beyond that you would not be able to drop the class.

Even if they do drop the course, then they did a whole bunch of unpaid, non-volunteer, work for nothing.

If you're going to persist in pretending an intern is the same as a volunteer, that's your choice, but it's not true.

You say most internships are not tied to college credit. But I've worked on political campaigns, at least 4 different ones, during the Democrat primaries and also general elections. We had interns aplenty. And the vast majority of the people called "interns" were unpaid college students working for college credit, mostly people paying tuition, and doing regular campaign jobs and office work. So I don't know wtf you are talking about.

but in general. It was the other poster who insisted the title was what mattered.

Are you currently working for a campaign?

She has spoken out against unpaid internships. It's not right that she doesn't pay them, which is why I signed the petition.

You aren't going to answer my question about whether you are currently working for a campaign?

I've never understood why, but it is a normal thing for teaching interns and student teachers to not be paid (and they have to do both.)

can't afford those plum positions. Internships are ordinarily a class credit position and require regular work hours commitment. Those of us who cannot afford to work for free, protest the class privilege of unpaid internships at plum positions.

Volunteering is not equal to an internship. A volunteer can set their own hours. A volunteer can walk away at any time with no consequence.

Are you pretending that it makes no difference on a resume. If Hillary changed their title to volunteer then they would not get college credit for their internship. Would that be okay?

Interns are hired. They are chosen. They are expected to perform a paid staff responsibilities. They are expected to work regular hours.

I KNOW you KNOW the difference between an internship and a volunteer.

Interns have a defined role and function under US labor law and within the work-ecosystem.

A volunteer may not do work designated that an intern do for educational credit, personal advancement or stipend and the utility of the work done by an intern must be constrained to a primarily educational function rather than one primarily useful to the employer.

This is really a matter of zebras not being white horses with black stripes painted on. Both roles have their use and necessity in an electoral campaign but it is imperative for both ethical and legal reasons that those roles not be muddled or confused because the purpose of each is not the same...most-importantly, regarding campaign internships, victory is entirely immaterial from fulfillment of purpose of an internship as the sole purpose of an internship is educational fulfillment; where inquiries and courts have found that interns have been repurposed to primarily benefit the employer or fulfill a purpose other than their own workplace educational fulfillment back-pay is owed and legal sanctions may apply.

More briefly, if the work being done by an intern is primarily meant to help Hillary (or Bernie or Jeb! or O'Malley) win rather than to educate the intern on how a campaign works or learn job-skills vital to working on campaigns...then that work is illegal. It's also illegal to retitle "interns" to "volunteers" to avoid those labor distinctions or compensation.

If these individuals were brought on as interns...then they have to be utilized as interns, especially if they are receiving educational credit for their efforts. If these people are actually volunteers and were never involved in the functions of an internship, then they need to stop calling them interns and stop bringing people in under the title of "intern" when they are in no form engaged in internship.

I had two of them.

Why are you attacking fellow democrats?

But setting up campaign coordination in states is usually done by paid staff. GOTV is in the month or so prior to the election.

which I signed BTW. But I also watched Bernie's conference call, and they asked for unpaid organizers to work all around the country. Clinton has those people on her campaign as paid staffers. Just sayin.

Interns should be paid. Volunteers are volunteers and don't expect to be paid.

Volunteers go home when they choose.

If an intern leaves or declines a work assignment they can flunk out of college.

Interns should be paid. It is much more like a job than a volunteer role.

Intern and volunteer are fundamentally different roles.

And we gave them the ability change those hours on a whim. We made every effort to work around their school, exams, studying for finals and any other paying jobs they might have had. And we wrote references for them.

Tuition is due for all majors, and some don't even have internships. Some have the option to chose to do unpaid internships. Until Hillary or Obama or Bernie gets free higher education laws passed, tuition fees will be due.

Are you saying that students with full ride scholarships should not be paid for internships and those who pay out of pocked MUST be paid for internships? That is screwed up.

Again, we do not need any additional employees, why should we be paying for something we don't need? We offer internships for the benefit of the student not our benefit. In your scenario since we don't pay interns, they don't get internships, no experience, not resume padding and no references....how is that of any benefit to a student who only needs to find 2 hours a week to build their career?

You apparently disagree. That's OK. Thanks for sharing your opinion and I'm glad to have had this opportunity to share mine.


you asked:

It's very childish.

A thread posted by a fellow Bernie supporter no less, to say something nice about something that Hillary did? A thread where pretty much all the other Bernie supporters but you and one or two other folks also said it was nice?

You're behavior was so over the top that even Skinner had to note that it was ugly and Skinner endeavors not to get involved in this kind of stuff.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251480224#post13

It was a prime example of coddling by Team Hillary

your terse, curt, rude responses over several threads had garnered enough tallies that the hide was a clear indication of a systemic problem and not a one off issue. I think you know it too.

To meet to be considered an intern position.
Volunteer and intern are not interchangeable.

The low reach of screeds like this tell me how desperate the Hillary camp is becoming. Sad to see.

it is indeed sad to see.

The desperation reeks of, well, "desperation".

The more they try to smear Bernie Sanders the more I turn away from Hillary Clinton. I'm not the only one.

services. Which was a reaction to the snarky opinion that Bernie should be paying his staff the $15/hour he advocates should be the federal wage floor by the year 2020. The empty arguments carry on. Juvenile playground battles that amount to, "I know you are, but what am I?"

They are not free to go home when they want. They can not decline assigned work tasks or they can lose the internship and possibly flunk the course, even fail out of school and lose their financial aid. An intern is simply a worker who doesn't get paid. A volunteer can leave whenever they want.

These are 100% fundamentally different roles.

Today Hillary utterly failed to defend Planned Parenthood against a scurrilous, fraudulent right wing attack. Women's health, life and choice has become a political football and Hillary chose not to engage. So whether her interns choose to donate their services to her campaign or not, I don't care. We are left to guess her position on issues that she may be in the position to act. I care about that.

There are issues and policies that directly affect American lives and the candidate's position on those issues is important. The internal campaign matters are simply not interesting to me.

The Planned Parenthood thing is more important than this present conversation about interns.

If you don't care about interns getting paid, that's ok, you don't have to care. And if other people care, that's ok too.

Interns are not "donating their time". They are doing a job, often just like a regular worker, but with no pay. They should be paid. I don't think it's simply a bullshit political tactic. Well...for some people maybe?

But the interns are also important, they are workers, they should have protections, they should be paid.

Hillary has managed to do so consistently. Even when she appears to take a position, it's couched in weasel words.
"Diplomacy deserves a chance to succeed" can be construed or misconstrued, depending upon what she meant by it.

No policy discussion, just META crap stirring

With about 6-7 months to go before Hillary secures the nomination, my guess is that the hypocrisy and smears against her are going to get worse.

Smears like...
gun nut
socialist
bigoted against immigrants and PoC


Nearly a laugh, really a cry

Nobody has called him "bigoted", that's a straw argument by Bernistas trying to brush off his tendency to prioritize economic issues over social justice issues.

And "gun nut" was the title of a Slate or Salon article about his votes against the Brady Bill and in favor of legal immunity for the gun industry.

The thing is, despite Bernie's flaws, most Hillary supporters like him. On the other hand, a lot of Bernie supporters, on DU in particular, seem driven more out of personal hatred of Hillary than anything else. That's why the rhetoric and smears are so much greater in the anti-Hillary direction.

Not only did you repeat the lame
attempt to misrepresent, and
further the "socialist" red-bait,
but you defend the blatant
smears perpetrated within
the DU community.

It has been stated, and repeated
right here on DU that Bernie
doesn't care about immigrants
and PoC...
yet you blame a "news" outlet
for the individuals carrying those
attacks forward?


Intellectual honesty much?

It's actually odd that you consider this a "smear" to begin with. Unless you think that the word "socialism" automatically means Stalinist authoritarianism, but the only people I know who think that are right-wingers. I don't have any problem with socialism.

The problem is that 52% of Americans wouldn't consider voting for a socialist. And I don't want to see a Republican president.

Ignoring and intentionally leaving out
the Democratic part of Democratic Socialist
is what is widely know as "red baiting"

That's a bit of an odd accusation. Like I said, I don't have any problem with socialism, I support a lot of socialist policies, many of the same ones as Bernie.

I don't think anyone on DU, except for maybe a few right-wing trolls (and apparently some Bernistas), think that "socialism" means "Stalinism". The problem is, the American electorate won't vote for a self-described socialist. It's an electability issue.

personal attack against me. But I prefer to stick to the topic. What do you think of the hypocrisy in the Bernie camp?

Phrases have meanings. look them up if you're uncertain as to their use.

There is no hypocrisy. Asking for volunteer work is not hypocritical.

Especially when you finally explain how you reconcile your I/P views with your Bernie-mania. How many times have I asked this?

I agree, asking for volunteer work is not hypocritical. Even when Hillary does it.

That doesn't actually make it one, though.

The poll "surge" has plateaued, Hillary has rolled out a progressive platform that has won wide praises, Bernie mishandled the BLM thing, and the faux scandals they try to push haven't had any impact. So they're trying to dig up whatever anti-Hillary dirt they can find. Hence the "unpaid intern" thing.

A lot of people who made some bold predictions are going to have some thinking to do. Do you think the Bernistas will challenge their faulty assumptions when confronted by reality?

Do you think the people proclaiming "Bernie will be our nominee" and "Bernie will be the next president" will reconsider their faulty assumptions when he loses to Hillary?

As for the GE, yes, I am worried about that. We can't afford another Republican president. Hillary, of course, is the strongest candidate we have by far, but she is very far from a lock. This is a country that (almost) voted for W twice.

The DNC and democratic establishment
is blatantly favoring Hillary.

They will continue to work against Bernie.

With Billions in donations, kickbacks and
the revolving door hanging in the balance,
we expect quite a bit of resistance from
the status quo supporters .

The billionaires don't care if it's Hillary
or a republican, it's a win-win for Oligarchy.

Why? A number of reasons. She's a strong candidate, progressive policies, lots of experience, pays attention to both social and economic issues. And also, she's by far the best chance we have at a Dem president. This last one is the reason I support her.

You're wrong about the "billionaires" though. Some might be apolitical, but others do take sides. Right-wingers like the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson care very deeply about defeating Hillary and seeing a Republican in power. Liberal billionaires like George Soros and Tom Steyer, on the other hand, are supporting her because they understand how disastrous a GOP presidency would be.

...and she has a lead over Sanders in every Democratic poll.

So if she is going to "lose the war", how can Sanders win it?

72% supported a "War of Choice"
against a country which did not attack the USA.

Are people really that stupid or was the poll jiggered?

Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq
Bush approval up 13 points to 71%





http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

You really need to be clear though. It is his supporters, not him. Big difference. Supporters of all candidates, with only a very few being the exception, take part in hypocrisy to some extent. This one are of hypocrisy just falls flat on face value, making the concern look worse than most.

I am very happy you found it amusing. At all times, I am happy when people smile. If selective reading does it for you, I support that. I support your smile. Not once have I used the term "Bernistas." That means you have used it more often than I have. If you have issue with that please take it up with the op. Hanging it out in the comment as you have gives the appearance that it is being attributed to me, whey you use the term more often than I do.

I have been decided for about the last two months. It's no secret. What you did is often what happens when one simply makes assumptions.

but nevermind.

the "hypocrisy"?

I thought Bernie would level out somewhere in the mid 20s, maybe low 30s, but it looks now like he might be stuck in the high teens. The BLM dustup didn't go very well for him.

The hypocrisy is people criticizing Hillary for unpaid campaign workers but not Bernie for the same thing.

There' no "hypocrisy" involved in paid/unpaid internship discussions when the difference in the funding of the two campaigns is so great.

campaign workers? Interesting.

....workers, interns, volunteers are all free to leave any time they want.

And, all workers, interns, and volunteers are assigned work tasks.

You're assuming that ALL "interns" are students doing it for college credit. That's not the case.

But this is not true. Workers depend on the job for their living. They have to stay and do their job or they can get fired.

Similarly interns are required to be there for school credit. They can't leave without serious consequences, and they do regular assigned work.

Volunteers can come and go as they please and can turn down work assignments without consequences.

Not all interns are college students, many political campaigns the vast majority, probably 90% or more or interns are college students working for free or actually paying to be there. Yet they work just like a regular worker.

After the BLM dust-up, with Bernie's numbers still stuck in the high teens, his supporters are really grasping at this point.

terms so as to call interns volunteers so you dont have to pay them.

Unpaid internships is something we have been told to get used to, that they are the norm or accepted.

Nonsense, just another example of the rich taking advantage of their position.