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KoKo

(84,711 posts)
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 03:14 PM Jul 2015

Hillary Clinton's real Libya problem--Not the E-Mails but Policy Questions


By Stephen Collinson, CNN

Republicans and some Democrats are criticizing the policy of U.S. intervention in Libya
Hillary Clinton was a key force in the U.S. getting involved in the North African state
She will face questions about her role in that decision on the campaign trail


Gadhafi's ouster first seen as a triumph

Initially, the Libya intervention seemed set to go down as one of the Obama administration's triumphs.

"We came, we saw, he died," Clinton joked with a television reporter in the wake of the death of the fugitive Gadhafi at the hands of a mob, days after she visited Tripoli in support of Libya's transitional government.

But when Gadhafi fell, he left a land of eviscerated political institutions ill-prepared for its sudden freedom.

Torn by tribalism, ruled by two rival parliaments and with hundreds of civilians killed during the subsequent civil war, Libya is suffering a complete breakdown of political authority, which has spurred the rise of a host of terror groups. The unrest has also spawned a huge refugee crisis as desperate migrants flee across the Mediterranean on overcrowded boats.

And where chaos and anarchy rein, terror groups often see opportunity.

------snip-------

Clinton 'a critical voice on Libya'

"HRC has been a critical voice on Libya in administration deliberations, at NATO, and in contact group meetings -- as well as the public face of the U.S. effort in Libya. She was instrumental in securing the authorization, building the coalition, and tightening the noose around Qadhafi and his regime," Sullivan wrote.

Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates also describes her pivotal role in the decision making in his memoir.

Gates said the intervention, which he initially opposed, split the administration down the middle, with heavy hitters such as Vice President Joe Biden and national security adviser Tom Donilon also against.

On the other side were U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice and National Security Council staffers including Ben Rhodes and Samantha Power.

"In the final phase of the internal debate, Hillary threw her considerable clout behind Rice, Rhodes and Power," Gates wrote.

Clinton's prominent role in the decision making on Libya was a political risk at the time, and it now threatens to return to haunt her four years on.

"We haven't gotten the full story yet, but from everything we do know, it appears that without her advocacy for this intervention, it wouldn't have happened," said Alan Kuperman of the Lyndon B. Johnson school of Public Affairs at the University of Texas, who has studied the causes and outcome of the Libya operation.

Some critics now question whether the administration, presumably working from intelligence provided by rebels, miscalculated on Gadhafi's intentions. And they say that the administration did not do enough to consider the consequences of an operation that ended up toppling Gadhafi.

"If you were going to break this place, it was going to require enormous resources to keep it together," Kuperman said. "It would have required an occupation force, and it was clear that the U.S. did not have the stomach for that."

He concluded: "Did she screw up? Yes, she screwed up."

But one U.S. official involved with the planning of the Libya engagement defended Clinton's position.

"I think that it is tempting always in hindsight to say Libya would be better somehow if we had not intervened," said Derek Chollet, a close national security adviser to Clinton and Obama at the time of the Libya operation.

"I think that is a highly dubious proposition. It is one where, had we not intervened, the conversation we would be having is thousands and thousands of people died and Libya looks like Syria."

But it is always hard in political campaigns to prove that but for a specific course of action, things could have turned out worse than they actually did. And Clinton's opponents, especially Republicans who want to dismantle her credentials as a potential commander in chief, are already signaling that Libya will be a significant political battleground in 2016.

More of a long read..but, seems fairly balanced...at:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/08/politics/hillary-clinton-libya-election-2016/?iid=ob_article_hillaryclinton_pool&iref=obnetwork
45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Hillary Clinton's real Libya problem--Not the E-Mails but Policy Questions (Original Post) KoKo Jul 2015 OP
It was a military operation based upon false charges of genocide. Maedhros Jul 2015 #1
Ghadaffi wanted an African dollar RobertEarl Jul 2015 #18
Yes. Her single biggest disaster as secretary of state. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2015 #2
I'm thinking that more is going to come out about this........Stuff that is not good. n/t KoKo Jul 2015 #3
Well we really don't care about that many deaths to be honest artislife Jul 2015 #6
True.......there is so much disconect and pain in our society... KoKo Jul 2015 #9
Thanks for posting this. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #4
Correction, Gadaffi's ouster was NOT seen as a triumph, by anyone other than Neocon War sabrina 1 Jul 2015 #5
"We came... we saw..." cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #7
You guys don't feel ridiculous spending 24/7.... JaneyVee Jul 2015 #8
I think most of us that you are complaining about feel speaking "Truth to Power" KoKo Jul 2015 #11
Sorry, but.... JaneyVee Jul 2015 #12
It's how the products are USED not who Makes them for jobs to Earn Income. KoKo Jul 2015 #16
Uses guns for hunting? No supermarkets in Vermont? JaneyVee Jul 2015 #22
Oh ffs. Knock it off. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #23
Guns kill 33,000 people per year. JaneyVee Jul 2015 #26
The op is about Libya, care to comment on the topic or just disrupt? beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #29
Speaking of that... JaneyVee Jul 2015 #35
I see I have my answer. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #37
Genocide? Really you had to take it there? Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #44
His Job as Senator is to bring Jobs to Vermont. The Jobs these days are MILITARY! KoKo Jul 2015 #28
I came, I saw, I cried kenn3d Jul 2015 #14
Indeed. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #15
That's the sad thing about this. KoKo Jul 2015 #17
I read your comments in the op and agree completely. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #19
I know...we have made a mess over there in ME and not only the Death & Destruction for Them... KoKo Jul 2015 #21
She is supremely qualified to be president... JaneyVee Jul 2015 #24
SCOTUS, schmotus tularetom Jul 2015 #34
Apparently you are willing to do so... JaneyVee Jul 2015 #36
Discussing policy choices is not "trashing". jeff47 Jul 2015 #20
Really, you think people here want to discuss policy? JaneyVee Jul 2015 #25
That's what they're trying to do now but you keep interrupting. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #31
You certainly haven't discussed policy. What about Libya? Comrade Grumpy Aug 2015 #42
Bring on Libya policy? Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #45
You are spot on JaneyVee Tommy2Tone Jul 2015 #30
I have every fucking right to know who and what you're asking me to vote for. beam me up scottie Jul 2015 #33
I think you need to take a pill and chill.. Tommy2Tone Jul 2015 #38
Oh, I'm plenty chill, Tommy. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #39
Real tough guy with a keyboard.. Tommy2Tone Aug 2015 #40
And yet you're the one personally attacking another DUer. beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #41
Clinton has a long history of supporting immoral war efforts. Vattel Jul 2015 #10
Yeah the whole policy in Libya was a disaster Cheese Sandwich Jul 2015 #13
Another link to help Jeb Bush Tommy2Tone Jul 2015 #27
This isn't to help Jeb Bush...its to help us make decisions about Policies we will or won't support KoKo Jul 2015 #32
This is the primaries dude. This is how it goes. Cheese Sandwich Aug 2015 #43
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
1. It was a military operation based upon false charges of genocide.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 03:27 PM
Jul 2015

A stable North African country was transformed overnight into a nightmare of misery.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. Ghadaffi wanted an African dollar
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:20 PM
Jul 2015

Like Saddam wanted to sell oil using Euros.

American Empire strikes back! Want more of the same?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
2. Yes. Her single biggest disaster as secretary of state.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 03:27 PM
Jul 2015

Fortunately, Obama rejected her calls to attack Syria.

And all that stupid BENGHAZI!! hoo-haw diverted attention from the real issues. I still wonder just exactly what the CIA was up to in Benghazi, but we'll never get to the bottom of that because...BENGHAZI!!

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
6. Well we really don't care about that many deaths to be honest
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:16 PM
Jul 2015

Blond friendly teenage girls who are HWP and middle class
Kids texting and their victims---sometimes.
A lion in Africa
And plastic surgery malpratice deaths.


Other deaths must go before a review

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
5. Correction, Gadaffi's ouster was NOT seen as a triumph, by anyone other than Neocon War
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:11 PM
Jul 2015

Profiteers and their supporters.

They lied, AGAIN. And people knew it, AGAIN.
,
And now we know they were lying when they claimed to be on a 'humanitarian' mission.

Anyone been following what is going on in that country right now? Where is NATO to protect the millions of victims now?

I don't see the cheerleading threads here since the reality, which many of us were SLAMMED for daring to say, has come to pass.

Another oil war, another country from the Neo Con 'list', mission accomplished. But for the victims who once lived in one of Africa's most developed countries, it is a nightmare beyond belief.

And now forgotten.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
8. You guys don't feel ridiculous spending 24/7....
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jul 2015

On here just trying to trash our Dem frontrunner on a site called Democratic Underground?? Republicans are the enemy. You guys just look desperate and ridiculous. Like, do you guys just spend the day looking for negative Hillary articles and opinions to post here?

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
11. I think most of us that you are complaining about feel speaking "Truth to Power"
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jul 2015

is important. It doesn't matter if it is Bush or Clintons or the others who went before.

Death & Destruction to defenseless people is important to us. And, our Failed Foreign Policy that has caused Millions to be left without any resources for Their Families, Broken and Destroyed Businesses and Ways of Providing for their Famlies who have been destroyed either through bombs, drones or other actions and had to flee with little and end up dead in profiteer boats promising freedom to immigrate (false promise for money) or living and dying in Internment Camps where they are left to rot away and be buried in mass graves as they die from Disease, Malnutrition or Despair from grief.

I don't pay taxes to go for this kind of Massive Death, Destruction, Dislocation and Disruptions of Families, Businesses and access to a Life they Lived before we decided to TAKE OUT SADDAM over LIES!

BLOOD IS ON ALL OUR HANDS........

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
12. Sorry, but....
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:46 PM
Jul 2015

If you're concerned about blood on hands, why would you vote for someone who votes to protect the gun industry, lockheed martin, and sandia laboratories?? All of whom make weapons of mass destruction. You're worried about bombs, lockheed and sandia make the bombs! Just a tip: If the only way you can make your favored candidate look better is by trashing others, that's some Repub level type of stuff.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
16. It's how the products are USED not who Makes them for jobs to Earn Income.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:01 PM
Jul 2015

Policy is War....and just because workers need jobs to support themselves and their families... and Bernie sees it as his Senator's job to bring home "industry" to give jobs to Vermont Workers doesn't mean that his Campaign Platform supports the Wars that these are used for by our Presidents and Think Tank-Military Industrial Complex to use manufacturing our states need (absense of real money for construction for roads, bridges, infrastructure) and bringing back Jobs to Vermont that are NOT Defense Industry jobs which are misused for WAR by both our Repub and Dem Presidents!

As for Guns...Bernie wants restrictions on them and the types of guns. Vermont like much of the Southeast USA uses guns for hunting..and that's very different from ASSAULT WEAPONS that are the problems in Cities and the Lack of Background Checks that Bernie wants to overhaul to place tighter restrictions on.

Vermont doesn't have the amount of Big City Death and Destruction that other States have.

He is for GUN CONTROL!

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
22. Uses guns for hunting? No supermarkets in Vermont?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:40 PM
Jul 2015

Bernie supports makers of weapons of mass destruction. Sandia makes nukes.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
23. Oh ffs. Knock it off.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:43 PM
Jul 2015

I'm from Vermont and I know plenty of people who hunt to put food on the table.

Anything to say about the op and the blood on Hillary's hands or are you just here to deflect?

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
26. Guns kill 33,000 people per year.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:55 PM
Jul 2015

Who voted for that? That vote didn't just effect Vermont, it was a 50 state repeal.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
29. The op is about Libya, care to comment on the topic or just disrupt?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:05 PM
Jul 2015

Or do only American lives matter to you?

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
35. Speaking of that...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:14 PM
Jul 2015

I'm calling hypocrisy on a 'blood on hands' comment, and as for American lives, you're the one suggesting we do nothing while foreign dictators commit genocide.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
28. His Job as Senator is to bring Jobs to Vermont. The Jobs these days are MILITARY!
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:03 PM
Jul 2015

They can't make a living out of their great Vermont Cheese or Maple Syrup. Skiing Tourism won't do it nor small farming, either. They also used to make furniture, textiles & pottery used by Americans.

Many states have to deal with the same War Death Destruction Enterprises of our MIC.

We need a better WAY than WAR and Wall Street Hedge Funds and Venture (Vulture Capitalists) to keep our Economy Going for the Future. Even the Tourist Promotion Industry in the US has taken a hit because of the Austerity and Funding for our Projects Overseas and Bailing the Wall Street Banks Out (which seems endless).

No money for States to improve their Lifestyles for their People unless its "Military, Fracking for Nat Gas, Training Troops, building More Nuke Plants or Corporations like Wall Mart, Amazon, Google Cloud Storage or all the others who could give a HOOT abut Workers earning a Fair Living Wage. We still make GUNS here in the USA along with other Military Equipment that keeps other states going because of the lack of decent jobs building things for America and not for War.

kenn3d

(486 posts)
14. I came, I saw, I cried
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:54 PM
Jul 2015

When I read that awful quotation I couldn't believe she actually said that.... but now when I SEE not only that she said it, but HOW she said it.... I hang my head in shame for our country.

You wonder why so many negative posts here trash "our" Democrat front-runner?

WE are in awe that so many here see her so clearly and still support her.


argh...

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
15. Indeed.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:59 PM
Jul 2015

Her supporters dismiss anger, frustration and dismay as "trashing" their candidate.

They can't defend her behaviour so they attack other DUers instead.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
17. That's the sad thing about this.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:16 PM
Jul 2015

Here was a very balanced article from CNN (shocking...because I can't stand them) but, I couldn't find in the whole read as an attack on Hillary but more one of the best Policy Conflict Reports I've seen about Hillary's involvement in Libya that set off the rest of the ME Disaster. She seems to be more in tune with the "Project for New American Century" Report and those Who Wrote and Support it than I are others who knew what a falsified disaster that the Saddam Invasion caused in the ME for Innocents with Millions Dead, Dislocated and their whole Culture and Lifestyles and Ways to Earn a Living was Destroyed! I read the article on CNN and I don't watch them....but, maybe their online site has hired someone who is a fair and balanced reporter?

Hillary is a War Hawk. I can't support her.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
19. I read your comments in the op and agree completely.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:23 PM
Jul 2015

This is not a hit piece, it's important information that DUers need to be reminded of during the primary.

The fact that her supporters are are so dismissive of it tells me they care more about Hillary's image than the truth about her record.

And pointing the finger at Bernie at the same time...well that says it all, doesn't it?

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
21. I know...we have made a mess over there in ME and not only the Death & Destruction for Them...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:37 PM
Jul 2015

but for us here at Home because War Sucks Up Money we NEED...and instead we get "Austerity Programs" for Average Americans while the 99% has prospered after We Taxpayers Bailed Them Out! And, our Taxpayer Dollars went to Killing, Dislocating and Maiming and causing Hundreds of Millions of Innocent Refugees with No HOPE for a Future! Their "Policy" is Blood on Our Hands!

WTF!

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
24. She is supremely qualified to be president...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:50 PM
Jul 2015

And is our best chance we have to avoid a President Scott Walker and a 7-2 wingnut SCOTUS. For some of us we don't have the luxury or privilege of a President Scott Walker or an all out assault on our rights by wingnut SCOTUS.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
34. SCOTUS, schmotus
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:22 PM
Jul 2015

You actually think Clinton is going to appoint justices that would put the brakes on things like Citizens United?

Rule in favor of a restoration of Glass Stegall?

Put the kibosh on TPP, Keystone pipeline?

Dream on, even though she might toss you a bone on things like abortion, she's as bad as any of the republicans when it comes to economic or environmental issues.

I'm not willing to sell out the entire American middle class for a few touchy feely social policies.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
20. Discussing policy choices is not "trashing".
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:24 PM
Jul 2015

Stop defining "trashing" as anything less than adoration.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
25. Really, you think people here want to discuss policy?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:52 PM
Jul 2015

For a group of supposed open minded liberals most here have a rigid set in stone mindset. No one here has yet "discussed policy".

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
31. That's what they're trying to do now but you keep interrupting.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:07 PM
Jul 2015

Care to address the War Hawk in the room?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
42. You certainly haven't discussed policy. What about Libya?
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 01:48 AM
Aug 2015

For me, and for many, I think, it's a prime example of Hillary as warhawk. And look at the consequences.

Thank goodness Obama didn't take her warhawk counsel on Syria.

Don't try to make this thread about Bernie. It's about Clinton's record as secretary of state.

Tommy2Tone

(1,307 posts)
30. You are spot on JaneyVee
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:06 PM
Jul 2015

but they don't care because they are not Democrats. They want to scorch the earth on Hillary and the worst part is it is not help their candidate, but it is helping Jeb Bush.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
33. I have every fucking right to know who and what you're asking me to vote for.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:12 PM
Jul 2015

It's not only un-Democratic to try to shut down the discussion by vilifying concerned Democrats, it's very Republican.

You want us to stop talking about issues that concern us during the primary because your candidate's record makes you uncomfortable?

Tough.

We don't let the GOP dictate what we talk about on DU.

This is a site for Democrats.

All of us, not just the ones who support Hillary.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
39. Oh, I'm plenty chill, Tommy.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 12:02 AM
Aug 2015

If you want to keep accusing Duers not being Democrats because we criticize Hillary you can expect more of the same.

And you haven't seen me get angry yet. Trust me, when that happens you'll be the one needing a pill.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
41. And yet you're the one personally attacking another DUer.
Sat Aug 1, 2015, 12:57 AM
Aug 2015

Grown ups fight over issues that matter to them. And we don't care if the nosy neighbors overhear the arguments.

So fuck the GOP and what they think.

Concern trolling is a lame attempt to silence dissent.

This room is for discussion of primaries and all candidates are fair game, if you can't hack it go play in the lounge.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
10. Clinton has a long history of supporting immoral war efforts.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:37 PM
Jul 2015

She is not qualified to be commander in chief.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
13. Yeah the whole policy in Libya was a disaster
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:47 PM
Jul 2015

It's much deeper than Benghazi.

Sometime I think Republicans harp on Benghazi just to distract away from the overall policy disaster because they actually supported it too.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
32. This isn't to help Jeb Bush...its to help us make decisions about Policies we will or won't support
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:10 PM
Jul 2015

in the next election.

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