If your premise is correct that undocumented workers depress wages then the intellectually honest thing to do is to advocate building as large a wall as possible and round up the some twelve million undocumented workers and their relatives in this nation and send them home, am I right?

I suspect the research shows that new immigrants to this nation take the jobs that long term citizens are loathe to accept and that's why their impact on the economy is negligible.

And provide a path to citizenship for everyone already here. Which is what EVERYONE except the right wing and the corrupt companies exploiting cheap labor wants to see happen.

eom

To Hispanic and Latino organizations who were pushing so hard for immigration reform and a path to citizenship and see how far that gets you?

I just want people to have the intellectually honesty to advocate laws that reflect what they really believe and submit them to the voters to decide if that is the course of action they wish to pursue.

I do not believe immigrants depress wages therefore I want more of them. If a person believes immigrants depress wages then of necessity he or she wants less of them.

I LOVE my Latino and Pacific Islander friends.

You equate immigrants with undocumented workers. Do you favor completely open borders? Does any Latino or Hispanic organization favor completely open borders? Does any political party or candidate favor completely open borders? Because if not there will always be documentation and a process. Immigrant does not equate to undocumented worker. Undocumented workers lack the power to fight exploitation.

No, I don't support open borders... That would be insane...I favor a path to citizenship for the undocumented workers and their families that are already here and a orderly process for those who want to come. My point is that there is no evidence that immigration depresses wages...That's not to suggest there isn't an inflection point where the influx is so overwhelming it depresses wages but we aren't there yet.


It would be nice to lift the living standards of the rest of the world so folks don't feel the need to leave the nation of their birth for a better life.

That conflict with your views.

minimum wage much less prevailing wages how in the world would that not undercut wages?

The problem is not immigration, it is lack of legal status which allows hardcover exploitation not only of the unauthorized migrant but of labor in general.

Why are you demanding these hardworking people be subjected to wage theft and exploitation?

I think it is rather racist and very wrong to be so hell bent on cheap, serf labor by abusing Latino folks without even the thin protections citizens have.

Last edited Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:38 PM - Edit history (1)

of exploitation and wage theft for a whole class of people with no recourse.

When they have legal status they will have legal recourse and that's why I am passionate about agitating for their right to come out of the shadows and be given a right to citizenship.

and in the process it undercuts the floor on wages.

You are currently arguing we pretend conditions are in effect that aren't. I'm with you on creating those conditions but until they are actually in place rather than simply a passionate and well meaning desire wages are being kneecapped by current dynamics in play.

You are arguing from a place we wish existed but does not and I am arguing about the actual circumstances.

include recourse against the depressive effects of wage theft and benefit ALL workers?

practicable recourse?

We are talking about existing not desired conditions.

Right now in the real world if we have a pool of workers and some can be paid $3 an hour when the floor is 7.50 then you are screwing the $3 worker in a land of the 7.50 minimum, you are putting downward pressure on the cost of labor broadly, and you are creating an incentive to get as many $3 workers as possible to fatten the bottom line.

What the fuck is the point of a minimum wage if you set up an exploitable underclass that allows you to bypass it?

DSB conditioned his statement on there being a path to citizenship ... did he not?

when he was blustering about the next logical step being to send them all back if wages are being depressed.

If we have now morphed into forgetting we are attempting to argue that undocumented workers don't under cut wages into something less preposterous and obvious then whatever but still not exactly right because there is no lack of supply for labor as is so adding only devalues.

It is already a buyer's market, more supply is not going to help increase or even maintain labor prices but instead drive them down further.

maybe that's because I've read a lot of DSB's stuff.

for labor. All it shows is the unscrupulous and indecent will do anything to find a way to stuff another dollar in their pockets and how desperate affairs must be in unauthorized migrants point of origin.

There will always be demand for paying substandard wages and evading responsibility to society.

For it to even hint of a labor supply issue where it was a matter of not being able to meet production undocumented folks would be making a premium but what we see is substandard wages and conditions often below legal minimums.

You would also see rising, perhaps drastically rising wages, a much greater participation rate, less long term unemployment, increased mobility, improving benefits, easing rather than ever increasing credentials, refrences, and background requirements.

As for the comment being sarcasm, I don't see it within the context of thread, I responded to what was stated. Hyperbole and snark? Sure, actual sarcasm I dont see but I'll grant it and still don't see how being sarcastic would actually change the subject from one type of status to the other.

How about responding to what I said and not what you imagined I said or wished I would have said, okay?

You can fervently favor a path to citizenship all day and all night but those are not the conditions on the ground and I'm not required to pretend that your wish no matter how strongly desired on your part or how righteous are an operative condition.

Here in the universe of time and space, in the Virgo cluster, in the Milky Way galaxy, in the Sol System, on planet Earth, in the United States conditions are not as we both desire and as such the situation is not as you argue.

I'm down with changing that and am glad you are too but right now undocumented labor undercuts wages and is exploiting both those workers and those on similar rungs on the ladder. It isn't that complicated and logically shouldn't be controversial at all.

All I'm hearing is a passionate argument to remove the floor on the cost of labor, do you also oppose minimum wage laws? If not why do you support an end around of them?

There is no evidence that increased immigration depresses wages.

There are approximately eleven million undocumented workers and their relatives in the United States. We can either give them a path to citizenship or send them home, however there is no will or means for the latter.

So it seems to me politicians can talk about the eleven million undocumented workers in our midst or have them live with some nether status in perpetuity. Prudence and basic empathy suggests they should be given a right to citizenship. This is one instance where what is morally right and practical coincide.

substandard wages which means that wages are being under cut.

What the hell is controversial about that?

It seems the eleven million undocumented workers and their relatives are in some form of purgatory. There is no will or means to send them home and no will or means to give them citizenship.

The prudent thing to do is grant them a path to citizenship instead of pretending another alternative exists when no such alternative exists.

They are here...They aren't go anywhere...

don't you get?

What is the purpose of the minimum wage in your mind, do you see no value on a floor?

The problem is not immigration but that you have a super underclass that can be exploited that rips out the already far too low floor on wages.

Sounds like you are a big fan of cheap and easy to abuse labor

I'm sorry, but you are simply too unreasonable to have a discussion with

Generally speaking, your argument misses a couple important points.

1. Historically in America, periods of large scale immigration do not result in some sort of wage crash. In fact, we are nation of large scale immigration and it has generally CONTRIBUTED to improvements in working conditions.

2. More people means more demand.

3. It also means more people paying taxes, more people contributing to Social Security and Medicare. Win. Win. Win.

3. Immigrants enrich our cultural landscape.

You're making a classic right-wing argument against immigration (those "other" people over there are taking your jobs!)

And it is. The idea that immigrants are lowering wages and taking our jobs is pernicious.

What is dangerous to workers is illegal immigration. Undocumented workers are a frequent target for exploitation. But guess what? Even with exploitation, working conditions and living standards are often better here than in their home countries.

So long as we do not have realistic immigration quotas combined with border enforcement, we'll have illegal immigrant being exploited. THAT is what the Koch's want. They do NOT want legal immigrant with a living-minimum wage and worker protections.

I think this is Bernie's first serious mistake.

sleazy employer.

Nothing wrong with immigration but there is a lot wrong with ripping off people and taking advantage of their lack of status and fear of deportation so you can get over and bust the shit out of the social compact in the process to pad your pockets?

Why are you so bound and determined to exploit Latinos as near slave underclass? Why do you think it is okay to pay hardworking people less than minimum wage? By what possible logic and mathematics do you argue that paying a whole class of people less than anybody with any legal status, much less citizens doesn't undercut wages?

We're talking about greatly increasing LEGAL immigration, so those folks DO have legal status and worker protections.

Edit: I had just seen the Ezra Klein interview, where Klein specifically mentions dramatically increasing legal immigration limits (he says even to the point of "open borders" which presumably mean no numerical limits). So I am talking about LEGAL immigration.

I'm also thinking the idea is approaching the if any is good than there is no such thing as too much attitude TeaPubliKlans have on taxes. Is there no number of people in the labor force that is too much for the market to handle in the view of this mindset?

Is there some pending labor shortage you guys are foreseeing here? At what point are we projecting that adding to the population increases demand at high enough rate to out pace the supply of labor?

Same goes for revenues, when will we have added enough people to not only climb out of the hole the existing population is in but also offset the added demand?

I believe no such number exists.

In the present dynamic adding people by any means to the workforce puts downward pressure on wages and we have no reason to expect this to become more and more of a factor as time rolls on.

I just don't see how such a thing is sustainable. I'm all for a path to citizenship for people here now and even in the future but I believe in making it punitive for employers to hire documented people and the whole issue would evaporate. Kill the demand for cheap labor and people won't even be here in the first place in any such numbers.


What is the practical difference between this line of thinking and the crazies that think population growth or raising the retirement age are a cure for what ails us?
You add supply that can't add enough demand to offset the glut added which reduces the value of labor.

coincided with deplorable working conditions.

I am not anti-immigration. I live in new england, and I think the whole monoculture thing sucks. I agree strongly that multiculturalism is more interesting and better. I also think that the current system is rife w/ human rights abuses.

that's just one study. I've seen others which suggested that not having an education actually put you at a disadvantage. sanders may not be wrong when he suggests that it's all part of the race to the bottom phenomenon. then again, I live in new england, and they don't have any qualms paying people poverty wages there either.

to further mr sanders' argument, if it is true, it means that we need to find a way to work to greater racial unity & class solidarity in order to fight back against the corporations. an important subplot may be that certain powerful people believe that we might find it easier to compete, rather than cooperate with someone of a different skin color. I've definitely seen office politics break down upon racial lines before, and it's sad sad sad sad.

with respect to unskilled labor/jobs, immigration reform would actually raise the wages in these areas (as a class) because there would no longer be the depressive effect due to the shadow market.

Additionally, wages would likely increase (even with the additional competition) because low end workers would have increased mobility ... Businesses tend to pay what they have to pay in order to retain GOOD workers and a stable work force.

Sounds a bit greedy, among other things.

I get wanting to make more. I don't get blaming people from other countries when as the article shows, it doesn't make much difference.

You're just fine with people in other countries getting paid $1 a day. And people in countries who have to pay prices too high for those wages? (Which would include Mexico and other Central American countries by the way) well we're just greedy and ungrateful. Yup the race to the bottom sure helps workers worldwide doesn't it? It DOES help CEOs and shareholders...which excludes most of us. Which are you?

wealth that we have grabbed more of our fair share. No matter what you think, it's not the immigrants' or foreign workers' fault.

You fight like hell for "free trade"...what are you doing to ensure the playing field is level to prevent exploitation of workers worldwide? Not buying the outrage on behalf of immigrants from you.

Trying to exploit our immigration policy mess to push predatory trade policy.

And I doubt that will change

Hillary has said some horrible things about immigrants in her Senate runs and against Obama in 2008. She is parroting the right things now, but you'd be foolish to trust her.

His yes-vote to protect the Minutemen solely on the southern border that, three years later, resulted in the murder of two American citizens with Spanish last names, of which one of those Americans was a nine year old girl, Brisenia Flores.

Bernie supporters love to say that as soon as people learn about him, they will flock to him.

Yeah, I'm sure when Hispanics they learn about his vote in favor of Latino hunters and murderers it will clinch the Latino vote for him

Passed the House in 2006 by a margin of 389 to 9. It passed the Senate (of which Clinton was a voting member at the time) unananimously. It was an appropriations bill which included all of the funding for Homeland Security. So I guess that's the entire congress you want be going after on that one. Got another one?

Nice catch, thanks for guarding against the misinformation.

The only votes to investigate on those ones are the nays. You could argue we should ditch Homeland Security entirely but no one seemed to eager to hold up this entire bill over individual aspects of it... no matter how odious those might be.

Last edited Sat Aug 1, 2015, 12:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Sanders didn't have to vote yes.

None of the Hispanic democrats voted yes on it. and BTW, neither did Dennis Kucinich.

No matter how you try to spin it, the fact is that Sanders voted yes on an abominable amendment which protected vigilante murderers, and he didn't have to do so.

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like the Border Klan.

Sooner or later, Sanders will have to explain to the Latino population the reason he voted YES on an amendment that was so damaging and devastating, with fatal results to the Latino community. Perhaps to BS supporters this is just a footnote, but believe me, this racist group was big news, features almost daily on the news, talk shows, etc

I'm going to email Jorge Ramos from Univision to let him know. Hopefully he will ask for an explanation from Sanders.

And the absurd, so called "explanation" given in this thread won't cut it. Not by a mile.

Hillary has been awful until she "evolved" this cycle and Sanders is still pushing the rightwing lie on immigration.

comments and policies while running for Senate? Why did she attack Obama from the right on Immigration in 2008? Why did she oppose Driver's Licenes for Undcoumented Americans? And why did she support sending child refugees from Central America back without due process even the ones from Honduras where she supported the coup against a Democratically-elected president?

Hillary will say anything to get elected and sell out anyone along the way. She clearly doesn't take Latino/immigration rights seriously or she wouldn't have sold them out so easily in past campaigns. And she would have worked harder and had actual results on Latino/immgiration issues.

O'Malley passed the DREAM ACT for Maryland, he took in the largest # of child refugees from Central America and put them in foster care not in inhumane cages/warehouses like DHS wanted. He gave Driver's Licenses to Undocumented Americans. He was the first candidate to push for allowing Puerto Rico to declare bankruptcy. It goes on and on. O'Malley is clearly passionate on this issue and isn't just checking a demographic box during a campaign. Latino Groups called him the most pro-immigration and pro-Latino Governor in history during his time in office.

This is an issue that I am passionate on and it makes me insane that the media is pretending that Hillary is equal to O'Malley on this issue. It just isn't the case. O'Malley is lightyears in front of her on these issues.

Everyone knows our existing system allows employers to exploit undocumented workers which DOES depress wages. Immigrants know this too. Immigration reform is a huge priority for everyone except corrupt companies who want to get around prevailing wages and workplace protection regulations.

say.

The only people who were against immigration reform and a path to citizenship were the right wing and unscrupulous employers exploiting undocumented immigrants. Do you identify with either of those?

As a resident of Los Angeles this argument strikes me as specious:

This article clarified things a little more for me. http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/07/30/3686282/bernie-sanders-immigration/

Hillary ran to the right of Obama in 2008 and said some really ugly things in her Senate race on immigration. I don't trust her at all on it. O'Malley's been a consistent strong ally for immigration for years now and has delivered on policy. Not just campaign rhetoric with him.

Facts matter!

But you knew that.

he isn't mentioning that. To be really honest with you, you tell me when any high school kid is gong to compete with H-1B visa recipients. He's talking about farm workers, hotel workers, and cleaning people.

Because unless you're paying people under the table (which is what people who exploit undocumented workers do) you have to pay them at least minimum wage. Surely you're not advocating we allow people to come here and be able to pay them less than minimum wage?

HE is not talking about H-1B Visa. more has he mentioned paying people under the table. YOU brought the visa thing into the discussion and now you are trying to tel me that he is talking about paying people under the table.

Neither of these things Sanders has talked about wrt to his stance on immigration. YOu brought them up and you are trying to associate me with something I never said.

I reamin uncomfortable with his stance on this issue- in spite of your attempt to make it something it is is not, I remain uncomfortable.

I take Sanders for his word, and that is something I have a problem with.

I have a problem with this particularly policy stance he has.

Surely you can respect that. I am trying to have an honest debate here.

Because we have minimum wage laws in this country. All the jobs you describe must pay at least minimum wage or they are breaking the law. Unskilled immigrants cannot depress wages for those jobs because they are as low as they can legally be. Bernie Sanders rails often against HB1 visas and he wants to RAISE the minimum wage. He could NOT have meant anything other than what I just said.

Legal has nothing to do with this. It isn't legal to hire undocumented workers and such folks have no recourse because they have to stay below the radar or deal with the INS and face being deported.

You are arguing for a super underclass of people who the minimum does not logically or practically apply to. Wages are depressed even and most particularly at the bottom rung because you take the floor out.

You are doing nothing here but cheerleading for exploitation for profits because of naivete if you are being honest and wicked greed for illegally cheap labor of you aren't.

I not disagreeing with you on anything. Undocumented immigrants depress wages. Legal ones do not.

And yes even legal immigration CAN depress wages if you bring folks in on visas that are less than or even on the shallow end of prevailing wages or if your influx is too high you create a glut of supply that outpaces the additional demand they create particularly when you already have a demand crisis.

We simply do not have an excess of demand for labor so additional supply can only devalue what demand that exists.

workers and there is a lot of abuse in the program.

A warm weather resort that's only open 6 months a year may have a hard time with staffing because the jobs are only for 6 months. So applying to bring in foreign workers to clean, cook and maintain the property could be a legitimate need. However, a hotel that is open year round, gets bookings year round, should be hiring permanent workers. If they can't get maids to clean rooms 40 hours a week for $8 and hour, they need to RAISE THE PAY. My guess is that they'll be able to fill those jobs if they paid $10 an hour.

I worked at a commercial landscaping company that did landscape maintenance and installation for about 300 apartment complexes. Almost all the workers were Hispanic. About half were citizens and half had green cards. How many of those green cards were fake? I have no idea. When I noticed one that was obviously fake, I spoke to management about it. They said they were not required to confirm the validity of the green card, just that they had one and they had a social security card.

They were constantly hiring in the summer. Starting wage was 9 to $10 an hour with plenty of overtime. Drivers git $14. But working in 98° heat for 10 hours a day is brutal work and we had a lot of turnover. Guys would quit and go elsewhere for a 50 cent raise.

The head honchos wanted to import H2b visa workers because they thought they would be more "loyal". Of course workers brought in on H2b visas have to work for the employer who brought them in. Frankly, it's slavery 2.0. Thankfully, they were denied their application by the feds. But if you ask me, if you want more loyalty from your workers, you pay them more and improve working conditions. I couldn't work for management I didn't respect, so I didn't even stay a year.

I think these kind of jobs could be done by the unemployed young workers Bernie Sanders speaks of, but sometimes there are issues. Our workers compensation insurance required that our workers be at least 18 because there is some risk with all the power tools, hedge clippers and such.

FWIW, our workers did pay FICA taxes. Most paid some income tax, but since their wages were low and many had dependents, some had zero withheld.

these are real issues that should be addressed.

I remain uncomfortable but I appreciate this perspective very much and will contemplate this, seriously.

Indeed, it's kind of become the whole point!

That is what you are in effect saying because you are saying it is okay to exploit and steal productivity to undocumented people and pay them less than that.

Last edited Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

I am saying what I am saying.

it is what he is saying that I am not comfortable with.

with having one at all.

What else logically can be the case? You have a whole caste of folks you are OK with exploiting and ripping off then that floor is actually operative.

Please proceed in creating a debate about something I never said or suggested.


You are aware I am not the enemy, right?

I am this, as simple as it might be: I am a person that does not feel comfortable with one of our candidates stance regarding immigration.

That does not make me for people being paid less than a minimum wage.

I cannot believe you actually suggested that I might be for no minimum wage at all. That's actually a bit insulting.

could be the case?

I don't what you have to feel insulted about, I'm just stating the only logical outcome under the existing circumstances.

If you have millions of people that can be exploited and paid illegally low wages, it can only act as downward pressure on wages generally because you are kicking people below the floor set which devalues the labor of those actually on the lower rungs of the ladder.

Similar to slavery, if you can pay one nothing or another something then nothing wins and the same applies to a little bit versus at least the minimum plus you artificially have now made jobs that would pay more than minimum keep to the floor because of the downward pressure you allow in the scenario.

I think we have had so much bullshit supply side and infinite growth economics shoved down our throats that folks can't think straight anymore and math has become so fuzzy as to not even exist.

Until unauthorized migrants have legal status they are undeniably a drag on wages particularly when you already don't have enough demand.

I'll go further and say there is no foreseeable point in time to expect any crisis in supply of labor and there is no amount of adding population that will cause a catchup and exceed situation to cause enough additional demand to surpass the added glut of supply.

Physics counts too it just isn't 50, 100, or 150 years ago anymore, you can't just keep plugging today into long gone conditions and expect to see similar results.
How much should we be targeting for the population to expand to? Are we in some danger of dipping below sustainability and safe genetic diversity levels sometime we can project?

It is my belief that all of this would balance out to a natural equilibrium if labor was more difficult to exploit.

If moving forward it was the management and ownership that was going to prison for wage cheating while the unauthorized migrants got back pay out of their assets at three times prevailing wages (at least at minimum Federal or local whichever is greater) that 20% of up to 500,000k (adjusted for inflation) is set aside for education, first time home buying, and/or small business expenses along with a citizenship track but you do a year (and may take up to two years to spread it out to be more conducive to work and family) of civic boot camp on work release of basic practical economics, labor history, English speaking and reading, general American history, sports, entertainment, arts, law, geography.

If paying legal and prevailing wages but hire undocumented workers then their salary is matched as a fine 80% to Uncle Sam and 20% up to 200,000k (adjusted for inflation) to the worker for education, first time home purchase, and/or small business expenses and the ownership and management go away for a shorter period and the worker may undertake the effort to become a citizen and the worker also does a one year of the boot camp above on work release.

As for now, we do basically an Amnesty on both sides but the employer goes on supervised probation to make extra sure they don't relapse meaning open access to oversight of facilities and books for five years if there are no further issues and granting the worker the ability sue for back wages below minimum and requiring them to complete a similar program as above within five years so they could piecemeal it in addition to normal citizenship requirements.

The lack of growth in middle class wages since 2001 is proof of that. Yet the wages of the upperclass have gone up and up even during recession.

This is not due to immigration. This is due to the owner class keeping wages low. With real unemployment being as high as it is the worker has little room to negotiate for higher wages. They are just happy to have a job.

Large companies purposefully underhire and over work their employees. This is the business model. They call it efficiency and it is efficient for the owners to keep labor cost low and production high. But for the worker it is exploitation working long hours and being over worked amd overloaded. The workers with their debt slavery to the banks are too afraid to seek change for fear of all they have worked for being taken from them.

Immigration plays a very small role in all of this. It is corruption and greed from the top that depresses wages.

Worldwide. Hillary Clinton is not fighting this.

there is a difference. H-1B is not an immigrant visa.

And I have repeatedly pointed out how that's not possible even if he misspoke. To continue to state otherwise simply shows you are trying to push a different narrative and aren't asking a genuine question.

... and both are programs that haven set up by and put in place for the wealthy class to exploit TEMPORARY workers coming here and being underpaid and having the rights of indentured servants (aka slaves) in such a way where the employer isn't breaking the law by doing so like they are when they hire undocumented workers to achieve the same effect in farming operations, etc.

Read more here on how he rejects BOTH programs...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/25/this-is-a-massive-effort-to-attract-cheap-labor-why-sen-bernie-sanders-is-skeptical-of-guest-workers/

... and the race to the bottom for wages these sorts of programs produced both for skilled and unskilled workers.

Note how even those working in the H-1B program dislike the terms of how they feel they need to use that program to work here instead of coming here trying to really IMMIGRATE here instead of just come here under these exploitive programs to get jobs here.

Watch the video here and note that they talk to an H-1B worker who himself doesn't like the exploitive nature of this program...

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/Silicon-Valleys-Body-Shop-Secret-280567322.html

Now note for the H-2B workers that Bernie also spoke out against here balanced against his stated support for the Dream Act, etc.

http://www.thenation.com/article/these-workers-came-overseas-help-rebuild-after-hurricane-katrina-and-were-treated-prison/

Notice how even more abused these H-2B workers were after they were brought in as CHEAP LABOR to work fixing the damage of hurricane Katrina when local residents there wanted and very much needed work themselves to get their lives back together. And instead they put together scams to get these workers to come here to work for near nothing by taking away their passports, etc.

I'm tired of people trying to smear Bernie in ways that try to paint him as totally opposite the person he is that really cares about workers and ALL workers. He just rejects the crappy programs that we've put in place that lets our elites continue to exploit them and screw the economy for us too.

I want you to know that I never smeared Sanders in this thread.

I stated that I was uncomfortable and stated my reasons why. Thank you for a comprehensive reply.

H-1B is rather personal for me... I've been pushed in to job contracting where I'm making less than I did 20 years ago, and another contract is being ended at the end of next week too.

H-2B and H-2A job programs are another example of how the PTB try to put in place a way of institutionalizing the race to the bottom.

I'm ALL FOR pushing for real immigration and letting people move here to become citizens and part of the American citizenry where they can have the rights to vote, unionize, and compete on an equal basis for jobs, and hopefully also contribute to our job infrastructure skillwise and our economy too by spending money here to stimulate our economy instead of sending money back home the way many of those on temporary work visas do.

One of the reasons I moved to the west coast from the midwest is that I like working in a diverse community, having lived a good portion of my young life overseas. I think Bernie appreciates this kind of perspective on helping out work forces globally. We might want to pay more attention more to our own economy and have things like tariffs, etc. to protect our jobs here, but I think the big goal if we work globally with workers around the world is to make it so that there isn't any "bottom" to race to. See if we can get pressure on all countries to provide adequately for all of their own citizens, not just the wealthy and allowing sweatshops to be in their country that get "raced to".

It's also a way I think of fighting climate change too, to ensure that there is no bottom in terms of environmental regulations, etc. that are "raced to" as well.

many recs.

I'd like to add that the decades long push for open borders comes from libertarians and organizations like Reason and CATO, both heavily funded by the Koch Brothers. And what they mean by open borders is not a truly open border system. What they mean are guest workers who are recruited on a temporary basis. It's visas plus enforcement of their guest worker status. The notion that likes of the Koch brothers or Zuckerberg or Gates are promoting open borders for the benefit of the general populace is laughable. They are promoting open borders because it DOES depress wages and is a benefit to their companies bottom line and their own personal acquisition of wealth.

From the OP's own source…


http://www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/

You forgot that one word.

Clearly, the man is addressing the plight of undocumented workers and the effect it has on documented workers, not documented immigrants. His position is the right one because undocumented workers suffer from exploitation by corporations by having to accept lower than market wages for their labor while documented workers' wages are kept artificially low because the corporations are knowingly employing undocumented workers and exploiting them. A win win for the corporations and both sets of workers lose.


On edit: His solution is not deportation and criminalization of the 99% good people that have come here illegally but is to document them so that all workers can get a fair wage for their work. Also, consider undocumented workers and SS, Medicare. And yes, many get real paychecks with those deductions but will not get the benefit.

And it's no accident they are forgetting to make that very important distinction.

and I must conclude the author depended on such things from those reading his 'work', because after lengthy ambling to and fro about what others had said on the subject he confesses

There has to be a path to citizenship that benefits the undocumented worker (who is often taken advantage of), and also the country.

You seem to have a vendetta against Bernie Sanders, might be wise to get your story straight before you attack.

He is talking about unskilled labor.

there is a difference and so far, no one has been able to show me where his discussions and interviews regarding unskilled labor and summer jobs for kids are about those visa's which are not immigration visas.


I am not trying to be an ass, I am not seeing the connection.

h'1B's Visa are not given to unskilled laborers the likes of hotel workers that Sanders is talking about when it comes to his stance on not letting more migrants come to the USA.

Does that make sense to you?

is talking about. These are two different issues.

h-1B visas are not immigration visa's. this is a discussion about immigration. This is what the OP is trying to talk about.

But note that there is no guarantee that someone who comes to the US undocumented
or even with an immigrant visa will stay here permanently, they could just stay in the US
a short time. So what's the difference other than the skill level? Is the problem with H-1B
visas the fact that they are 'temporary'? If they were immigration visas would they be ok then?

and my concern about that then is different than what Sanders has said.

I gave this link to to OP, and it ws put into the OP itself. THis is where I have a problem:

He voted for the immigration reform that was supported by Hispanic and Latino organizations. You are cherry picking obvious misstatements to push a particular narrative.

Wages for unskilled jobs CANNOT be suppressed lower than legally possible unless employers are illegally paying UNDICUMENTED workers under the table.

you are conflating immigration with under the table pay and H-B1 visas.

That is totally different from what the OP stated and what Berniew is saying. he doesn't seem to want more people to migrate to this country. You are conflating a few issues.

You're clinging to an unflattering interpretation that suits the narrative you're trying to push. It makes no sense to be pushing for immigration reform, path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, and higher minimum wages ( all of which Bernie supports) to then turn around abd be against immigration. He's talking about undocumented workers and then throwing his opposition to HB1 visas into the mix.

SO I am not going to debate you on the red herring you dragged out.

I gave this link to to OP, and it was put into the OP itself. This is where I have a problem: