2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie vs. Hillary memes have conquered the Internet. Time for a fact-check
Iraq War Authorization:
Sanders- As a caring Nation, we should do everything we can to prevent the horrible suffering that a war will cause. War must be the last recourse in international relations, not the first.
Clinton- I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last years terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.
Correct
Wall Street Bailout (TARP):
Sanders- This bill does not effectively address the issue of oversight because the oversight board members have all been hand picked by the Bush administration. This bill does not effectively deal with the issue of foreclosures and addressing that very serious issue, which is impacting millions of low- and moderate-income Americans in the aggressive, effective way that we should be.
Clinton- Voted in support of the $800 million tax-payer TARP bailout.
Correct
(snip)
http://usuncut.com/news/this-meme-reveals-the-stark-difference-between-bernie-and-hillary/
jkbRN
(850 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Thank you, Uncle Joe!
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)Hillary is STILL the Democratic frontrunner, and STILL polls ahead of all GOP contenders.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)It's not just the two candidates who are being revealed, Uncle Joe
Every ONE of us is finding truth.
It has to change as the real issues are revealed.
Thank you for this thread.
sgtbenobo
(327 posts)....for an answer.
Drive on Uncle Joe!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Who needs shit like that when we can not worry and just get on board?
John Poet
(2,510 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)An actual squirrel had a small issue in my back yard today and my son yelled that.
I had to laugh.
Even as I was worried about the squirrel.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)She was eight years ago, too.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)You do know that we get to discuss policy and choose our candidates... right?
There hasn't been a single caucus or debate yet and all you can say is she is the frontrunner. My question would be: "Should she be?"
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)I stated a fact.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)So.. you aren't going to actually respond to the meme or to the break down of the meme. You are just going to use the term 'fact check' to toss in sort of a 'we're number one' thing.
You do realize when you respond to these posts you are only kicking them up to the top of the list.
As a Bernie supporter I would like to thank you for that!
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)... that kicking a thread on DU to the top of a list actually means something, then I'm more than happy to oblige.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)What happens to America does NOT matter.
Which direction the Democratic Party goes,
and who they represent does NOT matter!
Its a Horse Race, and Hillary is ahead at the 1/2 mile post, so for our team....
YAY.
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)This is your Post #3, added to a thread whose OP cited Issues.
Its clear from your response that only one thing matters,
divert the thread from ISSUES to who has the best cheerleaders.
3. FACT CHECK:
Hillary is STILL the Democratic frontrunner, and STILL polls ahead of all GOP contenders.
You should be especially proud of that one.
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)I posted that HRC is the frontrunner. Like it or not, that is the fact.
No, I did not include in my post a comment about the many, many issues involved in this election. I also did not include a list of the things I care about - including world peace, a cure for cancer, an end to world hunger, the plight of the homeless, and/or whether the next season of "Vikings" will be as good as last season.
It's bad enough when people attack what others haven't said. Now we're down to attacking what people have omitted from their comments, on the utterly ridiculous notion that if you didn't say something in a post, you obviously don't care about it. Or that the one issue you have remarked on is "the only thing that matters" - or, even more ludicrous, that one is attempting to "divert from issues" by not addressing what you, or anyone other poster, thinks should have been opined upon.
Given that posters are now allowed to call the President a POSUCS, or call Hillary a whore, it seems rather silly to complain about anything that gets said here anymore - especially when the complaint is that someone didn't post what YOU wanted them to post.
Might I suggest that you "alert" on my Post #3, and explain how my reply was so lacking, it should be hidden on the grounds that it was disruptive, hurtful, et cetera?
And you just might get a jury to agree with you - such jury decisions have been known to happen.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)That is just two I know. So I question the fact check without research and breaking shit down.
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)during the Holocaust helped persuade him that intervention was necessary, President Clinton was for it as was NATO, if Hillary objected I haven't heard about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo
Long-term severe ethnic tensions between Kosovo's Albanian and Serb populations left Kosovo ethnically divided, resulting in inter-ethnic violence, including the Kosovo War of 199899.[14] The war ended with a military intervention of NATO, which forced the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to withdraw its troops from Kosovo, which became a UN protectorate under UNSCR 1244. On 17 February 2008 Kosovo's Parliament declared independence. It has since gained diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state by 108 UN member states. Serbia refuses to recognise Kosovo as a state,[15] although with the Brussels Agreement of 2013 it has accepted the legitimacy of Kosovo institutions and its special status within Serbia. The agreement solidified that public institutions in Kosovo are exclusively operated by Kosovo's elected government, and not Serbia's.
Kosovo lacks diplomatic recognition from 85 United Nations (UN) member states.[15] It is not itself a member of the UN, however it is a member of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank, International Road and Transport Union (IRU), Regional Cooperation Council, Council of Europe Development Bank, Venice Commission and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.[16] Kosovo has gained full membership in many major sports federations, including the International Olympic Committee.[17] Within the European Union, it is recognised by 23 of the 28 members.[18] Kosovo is a potential candidate for future enlargement of the European Union.[19]
(snip)
By 1998, as the violence had worsened and displaced scores of Albanians, Western interest had increased. The Serbian authorities were compelled to sign a ceasefire and partial retreat, monitored by Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) observers according to an agreement negotiated by Richard Holbrooke. However, the ceasefire did not hold and fighting resumed in December 1998. The Račak massacre in January 1999 in particular brought new international attention to the conflict.[86] Within weeks, a multilateral international conference was convened and by March had prepared a draft agreement known as the Rambouillet Accords, calling for restoration of Kosovo's autonomy and deployment of NATO peacekeeping forces. The Serbian party found the terms unacceptable and refused to sign the draft.
Between 24 March and 10 June 1999, NATO intervened by bombing Yugoslavia aimed to force Miloević to withdraw his forces from Kosovo,[91] though NATO could not appeal to any particular motion of the Security Council of the United Nations to help legitimise its intervention. Combined with continued skirmishes between Albanian guerrillas and Yugoslav forces the conflict resulted in a further massive displacement of population in Kosovo.[92]
(snip)
What two super pacs are you referring to?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Comparing Kosovo to the Iraq war is disingenuous, anyone who is concerned with facts would know that.
Kudos for trying to reason with that poster, though, many of us have given up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sanders, no
that is not true.
right?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You knew you couldn't defend Hillary's vote so you threw in a red herring.
Get back to me if and when you decide you want to discuss her yes vote.
Some of us actually knew it was a mistake.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)how do you decide it is really about iraq
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And it compares the two candidates' votes and statements.
Nothing about Kosovo.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Which - based on the the data used - he does. War only as a last resort.
Hillary voted to go to war with Iraq, Bernie didn't.
Get it?
They're comparing the two votes in Iraq.
Period.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)They are comparing the only two votes that were made by both candidates in the ONE war they both had the opportunity to vote for/against.
Hillary didn't vote for or against intervention in Kosovo, therefore it's not relevant data.
Bernie opposes foreign intervention except as a last resort.
Hillary doesn't.
Get it now?
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)I think even people that are generally non-interventionalists will make exceptions in order to STOP Genocide.
Sheesh. This is the kind of nonsense purity demands that are usually irrationally demanded of us by Republicans.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i am not judging the action of kosovo.
also, he was a yes to gulf war 1 while running and no after he was elected.
he voted for resolution to go to war for bush, connected to 9/11
superpac. there is a billionaire one and one started up by an X or an employee.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)where the ethnic cleansing was occurring, it is *definitely* a point to recognize.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)for voting FOR intervention in the Balkans, but then you are saying he was AGAINST intervention in the Balkans?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why is this so damn hard to comprehend?
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)You mentioned two super pacs but I haven't seen any names.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it has been on du more than once. not gonna go thru the hoops luminous wants me to jump thru. look it up, or dont. a simple google: sanders super pac will pull up plenty of articles. i do not know enough about it to be posting facts.
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2015/07/16/supporter-creates-super-pac-for-bernie-sanders-who-hates-super-pacs/TTiyTWZkp7W09L0cwdmk4I/story.html
Sanders campaign spokesman Michael Briggs told Boston.com that Sanders does not want billionaires spending unlimited amounts of money for him, or any other candidate.
Briggs also questioned the seriousness of the PAC and pointed out that Jacobson does not seem to himself be a billionaire.
According to the FEC filing, Jacobsonwho did not immediately respond to requests for commenthas not yet commenced any fundraising, but would himself provide the minimum $1,000 deposit required to start a super PAC.
Jacobson told the Post that he believes liberals general position against unlimited contributions in politics is limiting their ability to compete.
Briggs said Sanders is proud that the campaigns average donation was less than $35 and pointed out that Sanders had introduced a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizens Unitedthe Supreme Court decision that allows corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts of money on elections.
However, Briggs said there isnt really anything the Sanders campaign can do to stop Jacobson.
I suppose anyone can "claim" to be a supporter and start a super pac which would serve no purpose but to undermine a candidate's message of being against super pacs.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They can't give money to candidates, and candidates can't tell them what to do. That's the whole point.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he did run on it that he would. the vote was AFTER elections.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)just like i said in the first post....
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)FACT CHECK
really.
why can you not handle the reality of it. not the end of the world and the chart is not FACTS
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Put the knife down. I was only trying to lighten the mood.
Have a Wonderful Evening seabeyond.
Chris
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Maybe pantomime of W kissing he sheihk, that should lighten the mood.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Honestly. I really cannot believe that once I believed you were honest.
Come on. You are an intelligent person.
Name the super pac AND post the money that they have raised. I double dare you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)they actually exist and are raising money. For your own self respect, don't you want to know?
I can google Obama and birth certificate and read many many articles that spell it out.
I can also provide links to Obama's official birth certificate that dispels the many many articles that claim his official birth does not exist.
So, surely, you can provide the links to official FCC documents that Bernie's super pacs exist and their official filings with the FCC.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)And still a person I want to admire. I'm asking you to prove me wrong.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)foreign u.s. military intervention with kosovo. but FACTUALLY.... which this post is about FACT CHECKING.... FACTUALLY he has supported foreign u.s. military intervention.
correct?
why the fuck are you talking about diarrhea?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)*I* personally as a citizen supported that action by Bill Clinton.
I'm not sure what point you are careening to here.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sanders OPPOSES.
got it?
it is in the OP. that we are discussing. about FACT checks. settling in yet?
that is an incorrect fact that sanders is opposed to u.s. military intervention.
i pointed that out.
but for whatever reason, something so simple like that, .... simply pointing out a FACT is not really a FACT has people calling me a liar, associating me with diarrhea and a whole lot of other garbage. why is this even a LITTLE bit difficult to understand?
oh oh tell me Aerows. is it u.s. military intervention that Aerows disagrees with, or luminous, or joe?
or is it fuckin military intervention?
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)If you Google "Sanders super PAC" you will see both "Billionaires for Bernie" and "Bet on Bernie", two super PACs that support Sanders.
Sanders has promised not to accept any money from Super PACs. That was when he lost my support for good, pretty much, barring the unlikely scenario where he receives the Democratic nomination. No candidate can ever accept money from Super PACs. It was a cynical, misleading, and dishonest pledge, and it made a lot of the other claims he's made in the past look bad to me.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)"Billionaires for Bernie" was a silly idea floated by a public interest lawyer in LA who claimed he thought he could convince billionaires to donate to Bernie. "Bet on Bernie" is not even registered with the FEC.
The FEC has issued a letter to Billionaires for Bernie warning the registrant to change the name:
http://docquery.fec.gov/cgi-bin/fecimg?_201507190300000465+0
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They'll have to use their registered names in any ad disclaimers
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)re-register or drop it all together. So far, the FEC site shows that he hasn't changed the name or re-registered in response to the warning letter they sent him. He has until Monday to do so.
The man who claims he is running a Bet on Bernie PAC, Cary Peterson, has no PACs registered for Bernie under any name. If he is raising money, then it is likely a scam. So thanks for pointing that out because I'm going to file a complaint with the FEC now.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/663/201507159000123663/201507159000123663.pdf#navpanes=0
I'm really turned off by Sanders's "pledge" to not take money from Super PACs.
The entire point of Super PACs is that candidates can't take money from them. It was a cynical and misleading pledge on his part and it really troubled me.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)And that's a fact.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I hope it isn't all that's left, but it sure does lay it on the blade, doesn't it?
PatrickforO
(14,577 posts)Bernie is who America really needs. Let's help him make it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You are SO naive. You want Ted Cruz and Sarah Palin to win so that they can grill bacon on their rifles while shooting reindeer on the White House lawn for Christmas.
That's exactly what will happen if Hillary Clinton doesn't win the primary. Rifle Bacon and reindeer guts on the White House lawn.
Are you happy with your Dystopian future, big guy? Are you happy to be callous with facts in the face of your own doom and the doom of everyone and everything you ever cared about?
Tell me, Uncle Joe, are you there yet?
(Sorry I went off on a tangent but the drama surrounding this primary has gotten to me. I hope I didn't offend and you took it in good fun)
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)is that too much to ask?
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)name calling, diahhrea?
why not say, ya... looks like a couple are off, but the rest he is kick ass on.
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)Well there seems to be some dispute regarding the "billionaire pac"
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2015/07/16/supporter-creates-super-pac-for-bernie-sanders-who-hates-super-pacs/TTiyTWZkp7W09L0cwdmk4I/story.html
Sanders campaign spokesman Michael Briggs told Boston.com that Sanders does not want billionaires spending unlimited amounts of money for him, or any other candidate.
Briggs also questioned the seriousness of the PAC and pointed out that Jacobson does not seem to himself be a billionaire.
According to the FEC filing, Jacobsonwho did not immediately respond to requests for commenthas not yet commenced any fundraising, but would himself provide the minimum $1,000 deposit required to start a super PAC.
Jacobson told the Post that he believes liberals general position against unlimited contributions in politics is limiting their ability to compete.
Briggs said Sanders is proud that the campaigns average donation was less than $35 and pointed out that Sanders had introduced a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizens Unitedthe Supreme Court decision that allows corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts of money on elections.
However, Briggs said there isnt really anything the Sanders campaign can do to stop Jacobson.
I suppose anyone can "claim" to be a supporter and start a super pac which would serve no purpose but to undermine a candidate's message of being against super pacs.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Two Super PACs so far have said they support Sanders. Super PACs cannot raise money for any candidate, however, so either Sanders's line should be non-zero, or Clinton's line should also be zero, depending on what "raised funds" means.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Usually memes are a lot fuzzier than this one. Good to see the information is fairly good.
Autumn
(45,107 posts)I Kicked and Recommended this OP.
I can confirm that this is a fact sir!
And I agree!
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Thanks, Uncle Joe.
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)Peace to you.