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JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 04:58 PM Aug 2015

The DLC's Failed Southern Strategy and Understanding Southern Society

I don't know how much effort was really put into 1trying to get a Democratic majority in Congress. Do you?

Didn't look all that energetic to me. I'm in a very safe blue state, so there wasn't much to do here.

But the thought has crossed my mind that having all those misguided conservatives in Congress, corporate tools every one, insures that the TPP among other things will be passed, and that we will get very little of that pesky, environmental legislation that we need.

Setting aside conspiracy theories about possible mixed motives in high places in the DNC for which there is no evidence other than our own open eyes, it is clear to me that the reason that we don't have a more progressive Congress, a Democratic majority in Congress is that we cannot make headway in the Red states in the South.

That defies logic, that the Democratic Party which is the party of equal opportunity for all regardless of race, gender, disability, etc. cannot get a majority of votes in the most economically backward part of the country. Just does not make sense.

My personal conclusion is that the strategy of the DNC and the Democratic Party and their view of the South are wrong.

I lived in a Southern city during my high school years. My family was not Southern. We were Yankees, and I was never allowed to forget that fact, and am proud of it today, but here is what I offer as my understanding of the Southern mentality and the strategy that I think should be applied there. I will admit from the outset that it could be outdated. I hope so in fact. So if you are a Southerner, please read on and tell me I am wrong if that is what you think.

. . .

As an aside, any discussion of the South must take into account racism. I must say that I am white and of the opinion that the problem with racism and the solutions to it do not lie within the understanding of most Black people. Does the child whose drunken father beats him with a whip understand why the father is so cruel? I think not. That child takes the guilt and blame on himself while still a child. It takes a lot of maturity for the child to figure out that on the one hand, it is not the child's fault that the father beats him and on the other, that reasoning with the father will not stay the father's hand or still the father's rage. On the other hand, does the drunken father have enough consciousness to be able to stop himself without intervention of some kind? It's a conundrum, a self-perpetuating conundrum.

. . . .

My personal strategy in the South would be to appeal to red state voters and emphasize their economic issues. Here is why.

I have known social conservatives in my life, known some well. Social conservatism is partly maybe even mostly fueled by the desire to conform. There is a great comfort in feeling that one's ideas are "acceptable," that they are the OK ideas.

And in the South it is especially important to be "acceptable."

In the South, the remnants of what I would call the "debutante social pyramid" used to be very strong. I can't believe that they are as powerful today, but from the unbridled racist expression and hatred we see today, I strongly suspect that there is still something left of it there and even in certain sectors of society in the North.

The "debutante social pyramid" is a sort of mythological tale whispered in the South to children at a very early age. The idea is that society is organized into a fixed hierarchy with very special people, represented in this post by the young women (who have never done anything personally to deserve a special place in society other than being born) who used to "come out" as debutantes in the top tier just as they reached a marriageable age.

The debutantes are viewed as the beautiful, the rich, the admirable whether they are or not. They are viewed as carrying on the traditions and holding the right, acceptable ideas.

I don't know whether there really are debutantes and debutante balls anymore but as I recall they still existed when I was there. And the mothers of some of the teenagers I knew had been among them.

I do know when I look at the results of congressional elections, the racism, the resistance against unions, that the debutante social structure still governs the minds of many people in the South whether they realize it or not.

Rigid, hate-filled, irrational racism keeps the bottom rung of the debutante pyramid fixed in its place. It fixes the foundation of the pyramid. In the view of the racist, if your race is something other than white (and not all people of color are but I don't quite understand that part; great sports heroes or musicians, for example, may not be viewed as at the bottom of the pyramid but seem to be in a class of their own) you are automatically a little lower than even the lowest white person.

Now the puzzling thing there to an outsider was that individual Southerners would privately and secretly make exceptions to that rule. There might be some Black person that they particularly liked, and their explanation would be, "Well, he or she is different." But that is irrelevant to the maintenance of the generic Black person viewed as just as automatic a member of the low, bottom-feeder class as the debutantes (whether they have balls and are singled out as debutantes any more or not) are viewed as by birth and family status, members of the debutante class.

The racism and the exultation of a certain ideal person at the top of Southern society are two sides of the same coin, the social pyramid.

The pyramid is not so much about money although it is about that as it is about social views, about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in society. In other words, that pyramid requires those on it to agree to and conform to certain social values and behavior.

We Democrats, social progressives, are often amazed by what appears to us to be a conflict between the behavior of conservatives in general and their professed social or moral "standards."

Strom Thurmond was a racist in Congress but had a daughter who was half Black whom he cared about. Vitter was a family values man except . . . . Foley was anti-whatever-he-was-himself. To secure your place in the debutante pyramid, you have to conform at least in what you say publicly to the certain fixed social values that glue the pyramid together. And . . . you have to show loyalty to those in your own rung on that pyramid. That's where the problems with joining unions or voting for those outsider Democrats play a role. If you join a union or vote Democratic, are you admitting that maybe you don't really belong in your social caste or station? Maybe you aren't really as high on the social [div class="excerpt" pyramid as you want to believe?

It is when you get to the reality of economics, of poverty, of the difficulty of getting and holding a good job, of being respected for what you do, of the reality of where you can afford to live, go to school and eat

and socialize that economics plays a role. Focusing on that reality is where you might be able to persuade some Southerners that they need to jump off the pyramid and vote Democratic.

Many Southerners accept degradation with regard to their economic reality because sharing the social prejudices that hold the debutante pyramid together is just so gratifying. It just makes them feel so right, so warm and cozy and secure to know where they are on the debutante pyramid. That is why the right-wing talk radio hosts are so appealing to these conservatives. That racist, angry talk makes them feel they belong. They are part of a very special group who know what is wrong with their society. The focus is on social issues, not so much economic justice.

That is why I believe that trying to confront racism and trying to enlighten Southerners and conservatives in general directly about social issues is such a difficult approach.

In my opinion, the strategy needs to be, and I think that Bernie is close to using it, to point out the illusion that the debutante pyramid is, to point out the poverty and hopelessness of the lives of all those conservatives who vote Republican now because it appears to be the party protecting the social "values," the traditional "values" of the debutante pyramid.

Bernie is asking the right economic questions that may lead those who are dazzled by the seeming stability and "rightness" of the debutante pyramid for what it is, a system that is holding everyone down.

My view may be out of date. That social class system, the debutante system, used to be strong in the South. I don't know if it still is. If you read the book, The Help, you can kind fo get a feeling for how it used to work.

Class in the South is not necessarily economic. It is much deeper than that. But to break the chains by which the Republican southern voters are bound cannot be achieved in my opinion by trying to loosen the glue that holds that pyramid together, the social attitudes themselves, but rather by shining light on the pyramid itself, on the economic limitations that pyramid imposes on those on it, all of them.

That pyramid prevents employees, workers, from organizing to improve their workplaces. It prevents them from the real enjoyment of free speech and freedom of religion. Only certain ideas and certain faiths insure your place on that pyramid. It is an impediment to a lot of progress. It intimidates people. It insures that certain people (and color is one of the major factors in this equation) get extra points at the outset of their lives while others get points deducted as they exit the birth canal.

It isn't fair. And a lot of really great people are held back because climbing up that pyramid may be easier today than it was 50 years ago. But from what I see in Congress and on the Republican campaign trail, it is still really tough. Even though the Bush family is not really a Southern family, the idea of a dynasty of Bushes is really appealing to people who see themselves as fitting somewhere on that pyramid. The Bushes are in a sense the ultimate debutantes. It is no accident that George W. Bush worked on his father's campaign in Alabama at one time. Similarly, Trump's arrogant hate gives him a high position on the pyramid and not just in the South.

It's very hard for us as Democrats to understand the appeal of the kind of a social pyramid. But for Republicans, it gives a sense of belonging, knowing where they are.

And in this time of change, knowing where we are is important to us.

I think that Bernie's emphasis on the issues of economic opportunity and equality as opposed to social issues is the strongest way to confront the debutante pyramid.

Leading with social issues will not work. We progressives or liberals see the social issues as ours to decide. We seek social freedom. We are unafraid of it because our attitudes, our professed attitudes on social issues do not determine for us where we are on the ladder of our society.

In the South, for many people, it is their attitudes on social issues that insure their sense of solidarity, of belonging n their society. That is why the solid Southern block is so conservative and cannot move from that position thus far.

What we see as a block is really the social pyramid of the South. It is holding Southerners back.

Just look at their poverty rates. It is holding the whole country back because our preoccupation with social issues, and I am not denying their tremendous importance, leads us to talk only reluctantly about the economic issues.

Ironically, our constant focus on social issues inextricably ties so many Americans into the very social views that most of us Democrats want to change. Focusing on the economic repercussions of those backward social views is the approach to take to achieve progress on both social and economic issues.


Perhaps someone else has an idea about how to tear down the social pyramid in the South without destroying the entire society, but I can't think of one at this time.

I have not experienced anything quite as limiting as the Southern Debutante Pyramid in the North. I may just have missed it because I didn't appreciate what level on the pyramid I was. Maybe I was always a bit outside of the pyramid because I wasn't solidly a part of any community.

I'm sure there probably is some sort of modified pyramid in Los Angeles. There is so much wealth, but there isn't anywhere in the North that I know of this sort of concept of the debutantes, of the born into charmed lives class. Not even in Hollywood where you have a lot of stars. Most of those stars get up at 6 a.m. to be on the set on time and earn their stars. It isn't the same thing.

If we Democrats are to appeal in the South, if we are to end the racism and the violence associated with racism (in both North and South), we have to understand the roots of the racism and the traditional social structure of the South.

I'm sure the social structure of the South has changed some over the past 50 or so years, but the election results show me that the structure of Southern society comes from a very dark place, a pyramid of colors and classes that we Democrats have not yet figured out.

The Republicans seem to understand that very well and to play with it to keep either a considerable minority or a bare majority in Congress.

It is a traditional structure that thrives on a sense of brutal mastery of the class just under you, of feeling superior, of keeping order, of demanding performance from others, of not viewing others as your equal not only if they are of a different race, but even if they aren't from the right social group, of respecting people who you think are above you -- it's the absolute opposite of egalitarian, of what was done in the Occupy culture. Look at some of the videos of police arresting and brutalizing Black people and you see what I am talking about. (And I realize that some of them are in the North. Same sort of debutante pyramid social structure may exist in police departments. We should examine that possibility.)

That is why I think that if the South is to vote Democratic, we have to focus on economic issues. The race issues will change if the economic issues awaken people in the South (and North) to the fact that they are caught in a destructive and outdated social structure that is not working for them, that never worked for them.

To conclude,

the shadow of slavery is still alive and well in the Republican Party in the South. It uses social issues to scare people into thinking they will lose their place in the structure that slavery left behind if they vote their own economic interests. It prevents them from even seeing where their economic and social interests lie. And it keeps them scared of losing their place in the world if they dare to challenge the idea of the pyramid.

The DNC is nowhere near understanding or appealing to Southerners in my view.

Of course, maybe I am way behind the times and my analysis of the South is completely wrong.

I am not talking about Texas. I do not know Texas.

I am talking about the Old South of azaleas and great mansions and live oaks and swamps and all the "tradition" that it loves.

So if someone disagrees with me, I'd love to read your view on this. I'm quite willing to admit I am wrong if I am.

A note about racism.

Black people experience racism, but to change white people and drag them out of the dark ages on racism, I think it has to be approached through by challenging the idea of the debutante class and the pyramid beneath it with the reality of the economic cruelty to people of all races of that system.

I'm wondering whether the Debutante pyramid system plays out in the Black community. I have no idea. I would be interested in reading about that.

Thanks for your patience if you made it to the end of this long post.

I have no idea why so much of it is blue. Sorry. It's a very long rant I know. Too long. I know.
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The DLC's Failed Southern Strategy and Understanding Southern Society (Original Post) JDPriestly Aug 2015 OP
Their strategy on who to back is awful. mmonk Aug 2015 #1
From a Texas Democrat, your post is sad and wrong Gothmog Aug 2015 #2
Yes. I think I pointed out that I do not know anything about Texas or the Western Southern JDPriestly Aug 2015 #4
The California change is very very recent and I applaud it Gothmog Aug 2015 #9
Thanks for the great post. It really broadened my understanding. I hope a lot of people read it. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #20
There is so much absurd about this brer cat Aug 2015 #3
From what I read on this board, most Black people do not understand the extent to which JDPriestly Aug 2015 #7
"it cannot possibly be related in fact to the simple color of a person's skin" For real? Metric System Aug 2015 #11
It's so hard for me to believe. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #23
Are you sure you understood the post? s/he is saying that it is a problem jwirr Aug 2015 #36
You are characterizing the OP as saying that brer cat Aug 2015 #37
Yes, I read that to mean that there is nothing wrong with the black jwirr Aug 2015 #38
Posted to for later. 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #5
I would love to read your response to this. Thanks. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #8
As would I Gothmog Aug 2015 #10
Whoa! The pressure is on ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #12
Remember. I base this on my subjective experience of many years ago. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #16
I'm still digesting it and probably won't get to writing until this weekend .. 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2015 #25
I am hoping that you will add your experience and deep understanding to it. I was so young. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #26
Corporate Democrats + Republicans = Success for the 1% N/T Skwmom Aug 2015 #6
I'm a Tennessean and that debutante pyramid system was never whispered to me. Fawke Em Aug 2015 #13
Interesting. How do we change this? JDPriestly Aug 2015 #17
An OP titled 'understanding southern society' filled with this kind of generalizing, appalachiablue Aug 2015 #14
Are you from the South? JDPriestly Aug 2015 #18
Interesting, but too long RobertEarl Aug 2015 #15
Thanks. I know my post is too long. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #19
Bernie will take NC RobertEarl Aug 2015 #21
I'm very happy to see this: JDPriestly Aug 2015 #22
We have two templates for winning candidates in the South Recursion Aug 2015 #24
We run barely Democrats in the South, but because it is the South they are far more JDPriestly Aug 2015 #27
What do do with the South? Garrett78 Aug 2015 #28
I couldn't download the first link, but I especially liked this: JDPriestly Aug 2015 #30
Southerners view themselves as individualists. BKH70041 Aug 2015 #29
Do you think that they think of themselves as individualists because they don't want to think JDPriestly Aug 2015 #31
I've never noted what you describe at all. BKH70041 Aug 2015 #32
I think Democrats should fight hard for the South, if they want to be a national party. Period. NYCButterfinger Aug 2015 #33
Wow. Right or wrong this is one of the best thought out post I have ever jwirr Aug 2015 #34
This is so racist. moobu2 Aug 2015 #35

Gothmog

(145,243 posts)
2. From a Texas Democrat, your post is sad and wrong
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 05:16 PM
Aug 2015

In Texas, the route to be a blue state involves things like motivating Hispanic voters. If Hispanic voters in Texas voted in the same percentages as in California, then Texas would be a blue state. The Texas GOP knows this which is why they are defending their voter id law.

According to a study by Rice University/The Baker Institute and the University of Houston, the Texas voter id law suppressed the vote in one congressional race by 5.8% to 12.8% with the best guess at 9%. http://www.texastribune.org/2015/08/06/study-law-discouraged-more-those-without-voter-id/ If these people had voted in 2014, the race would have been closer and may have turned out differently.

Instead writing off the South, some of us are working to change things. I have been working with the state party on voter id issues and I will continue to fight to turn Texas blue even if that upsets some Sanders supporters

BTW, Texas has 270+ delegates to the DNC. Do you want to guess how many of those delegats will supporting Hillary Clinton???

Finally, I am watching to see with the Texas redistricting case comes down. We were hoping for an opinion soon in that case were we are fighting the extreme gerrymandering of the TX gop

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
4. Yes. I think I pointed out that I do not know anything about Texas or the Western Southern
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 05:29 PM
Aug 2015

states.

I am talking about what we refer to as the "deep South." The states that are still feeling the humiliation of their defeat in the Civil War. When I lived there, they were pretty much unwilling to acknowledge that war had ever ended. I don't know how it is now.

The pyramid, if there is one, in Texas is I am sure very different than it is in the Deep South.

Why do you think Texas is so conservative at the pols.

And I view the voter exclusion as a symptom of the social wrong rather than as the wrong itself even though it is probably the first thing we need to change.

People who have served their sentences should be allowed to vote. They are in California (or at last were last time I looked). They should not be forever disenfranchised.

Gothmog

(145,243 posts)
9. The California change is very very recent and I applaud it
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 06:17 PM
Aug 2015

Texas has a long history of suppressing the vote of minorities dating back to the Whites Only primary of the old Democratic Party and continuing with the extreme gerrymandering and voter id laws. People are figthing the GOP voter suppression efforts and we won a victory this month before a very very conservative 5th Circuit. The judge who wrote the opinion is a former Baker Botts partner and she was forced to agree that the Texas voter id law vioated Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act in part because of the SCOTUS disparat impact ruling in the Federal Fair Housting case.

The voter id law was bad but Texas democrats had no idea how bad. My county spent $175,000 in 2014 and saw our vote total go down by 9,000 votes compared to 2010. We had some good candidates who got killed by voter id. If the Baker/Rice study is accurate, then we should have seen a 12,000 vote increase in my county and Wendy Davis would have carried my county.

The voter suppression in Texas is not a social issue so much as a deliberate political decision to lock in the GOP control of the state. The gerrymandering of Texas boundaries was amazing and devious. Texas has even stated in the court filings that they are discrminating against Democrats and that means minorities since they tend to vote for Democratic candidates. The Texas GOP is good at gerrymandering but I really hope that this legal defense fails. The voter id law was passed in a very partisan fashion. I have a law school classmate who together with others proposed 80+ amendments that laid the framework for show that the Texas law was intenionally discrminatory.

I work with the State Party on voting issues and just met with Battleground Texas on voting issues. There is a ton to do but Texas will turn blue.

I was on the credentials and nominations committee of my district convention during 2008 and I can tell you that Hillary Clinton has a very deep level of support among Hispanic voters, white democratic voters and other groups. Right now, she is very popular with the African American community. In Texas we are hoping that she will select Julian Castro as her nominee and if this happens, Texas will be far more competitive. Almost two years ago the Texas Democratic Party (the "TDP&quot printed up some Clinton Castro 2016 bumperstickers that I hope to get to use.

I am also on the weekly conference calls on messaging with the State Party and we are following Trump and his birthright citizenship comments closely. Trump is alienating the heck out of Hispanic voters. The talking points that were circulated by the party are designed to help motivate hispanic voters. The TDP has good polling that the term "anchor baby" is as offensive to Hispanic voters as the term "wetback." The talking points are well done and Texas will turn blue one day

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
20. Thanks for the great post. It really broadened my understanding. I hope a lot of people read it.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:12 AM
Aug 2015

I'm in California. A lot of my friends think Trump is a joke.

Having lived in the South and Midwest, I don't think he is is disgusting but also terrifying because he is pulling the Republican Party toward even more racism if that is possible.

BLM is making it very clear, and I think we all know that we cannot pretend that we will make progress unless we deal with the issue of racism. It puts too many Republicans in the House and Senate, and no matter who our president is, that many Republicans in Congress makes it hard for us to deal realistically with problems.

Trump is a problem, not a joke in my opinion.

As you know, California is an immigrant state, not just from Mexico and Central and South America but from all over the world. Trump is insulting and threatening our state with his racist, narrow-minded rhetoric. And Bush's comment about Asians??? That too is a direct dig at California. It's as if the Republican Party is just writing off the votes in our state.

Thanks for you post.

brer cat

(24,565 posts)
3. There is so much absurd about this
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 05:26 PM
Aug 2015

"analysis" that it isn't worth discussing.

However, I will point out that this is racist, condescending and ignorant:

...the problem with racism and the solutions to it do not lie within the understanding of most Black people.

I cannot believe you posted that sentence on a democratic board.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
7. From what I read on this board, most Black people do not understand the extent to which
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 05:49 PM
Aug 2015

having the "right" that is in the view of racists, the racist view on race is a matter of achieving standing and self-respect for the racists.

We have to shift that view, that social understanding.

Please tell me if I am wrong what you see as the problem with racism and the solutions to it.

Because I have been asking DUers who are Black to explain that to me, and I have not received any answers that make sense to me.

I think that the unbounded cruelty that we see in some of the videos of racist police officers abusing their Black victims is a very frightening indication about deep problems in our society.

That anger is focused on Black victims, but it cannot possibly be related in fact to the simple color of a person's skin. So how can it be explained.

Telling white people to stop it does not seem to work.

We have a lot of laws in place to prevent the brutality. They don't seem to work.

We have anti-discrimination laws. They don't work.

What is the answer?

If I am wrong, I would like to know more about why I am wrong and what is right.

I do not pretend that my analysis is perfect or even right. But I hope that it sets off a discussion beyond just the "you are wrong," and "that is a racist analysis."

Blacks and whites have been trying to improve race relations in our country for decades now and we have come a long way, but we are still in big trouble on this issue.

I would love to read your understanding of the issue of racism.

I mean that sincerely. So far, the statements I have read on DU have not seemed to really grasp it to me.

Again, I think that the problem with racism is that white racists find their sense of social place in the organization of their society to depend on viewing Black people and other people of color as beneath them on the social ladder.

If that view of their sense of social place could be changed, then we could at least drastically reduce racism.

I say that because I remember that I had a lower place in the social pyramid in the South by virtue of being a Yankee. My Jewish friends also had a lower place by virtue of being Jewish.

So it is in my view the existence of that pyramid in the South which is more defined than it is elsewhere in the country that makes it so difficult to lose racist attitudes.

I'm sorry if that offends DUers, but I think that when we have a problem in our country that is as severe as the problem of racism is that we should not censor our attempts to get to the causes of them and perhaps even find a cure.

I will be interested in hearing your thoughts on the issues I am raising.

If I am wrong and am shown where I am wrong in my thinking, I will be the first to admit it. But just saying I am wrong without backing it up with a good explanation as to why is insufficient somehow.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
23. It's so hard for me to believe.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:33 AM
Aug 2015

I used to live in a country in which to be Turkish was to be viewed as an outcast. Black was OK, but Turkish??????

A European country in which the Turkish were the immigrants, the outcasts, the "guest" workers, the folks who did the dirty work. And so the Turkish children and their families really had a rough time.

If you were partly or totally African-American or African, you were viewed as rather interesting and exotic and were far more acceptable than someone Turkish. Although being a born citizen of the country was viewed as the best. Even I suffered there although I am white.

I don't want to say that race is unimportant to people in that country. They do not accept any outsiders all that readily, but being of African descent is not the big problem that it is here. Being of Turkish descent was a bigger problem when I lived there.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
36. Are you sure you understood the post? s/he is saying that it is a problem
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 05:19 PM
Aug 2015

in the minds of white people. Not that people of color do not understand the problem. In fact BLM is trying to tell us that this is a white problem - close minded whites who work to keep people of color down any way they can.

In other words it is the white mind that thinks they are and should be at the top of the heap. And the author is just tracing where that idea comes from.

It is the white mind that has to change and forget this pyramid idea they have about class and race.

I will add that when we fight it from the idea of racism we just get closed minds and a backlash as we saw here on DU a place it should never exist. The author is suggesting that if we approach this issue from the point of view of what it is costing the haters to hate they MAY open their minds and think about the whole situation.

I say MAY because there is never a sure way to make them think.

brer cat

(24,565 posts)
37. You are characterizing the OP as saying that
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:29 PM
Aug 2015

it is a problem in the mind of white people, not that people of color do not understand the problem. Did you read these quotes:

"I must say that I am white and of the opinion that the problem with racism and the solutions to it do not lie within the understanding of most Black people."

"Because I have been asking DUers who are Black to explain that [the problem with racism and the solutions to it] to me, and I have not received any answers that make sense to me."

It says what it says.

It might be very helpful to have a discussion on DU about possible southern strategies for democrats, but OPs like this one aren't the way to initiate one. He lived in the south for a while as a teenager 50+ years ago which is not exactly cutting edge for a discussion today, yet he posts a dissertation that would take a huge time commitment to read and digest, and fills it with made up drivel like "debutante pyramids." He may be well-intentioned, but I find it impossible to slog though it looking for a possible nugget to discuss.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
38. Yes, I read that to mean that there is nothing wrong with the black
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 01:33 PM
Aug 2015

understanding of the problem. What is wrong is the white understanding and that is the problem that needs to be fixed.

"Does not lie within the understanding of most black people". The black understanding is not the problem it lies in the minds of the white people.

The OP then goes on to explain what is wrong with the white understanding - the debutante society and the pyramid it creates. If the OP thinks it is a problem the way black people understand it the article would have gone on to explain what was wrong with their view.

Read the article from the point of view of the white people in the deep south to understand what moves their society and their discrimination against others. It was an attitude that is repeated over and over all over the world. "We the superior race (the debutantes) have a manifestly destined to rule the world and all others must serve us." T I am more familiar with the debutante society from the view of the medieval era but it is a good description of how white supremacist view came to be and how they maintain it even today. The first white colonists in the south brought this view with them from England.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
12. Whoa! The pressure is on ...
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 06:35 PM
Aug 2015

two DUers, who I respect deeply, are awaiting my response!

It will take a minute for me to form my thoughts; however, my immediate thought, after a very quick run through, was, "Webb? Is that you?"

I will re and re-re-read it and provide my thoughts.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
16. Remember. I base this on my subjective experience of many years ago.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 01:56 AM
Aug 2015

When my family moved back to the North, I never returned to the South.

And I am not wedded to my analysis. I may be missing a lot of things.

I could be wrong or very wrong.

I would like to start a real conversation about where we are on racism and where we come from and where we need to or could go on this issue. By "we" I mean our country.

Racism is like a genetic disease that eats away at our society and destroys us. We have to do something to change things. It is another one of those tasks, like taking care of the environment, that we cannot put off and leave for our children to deal with.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
25. I'm still digesting it and probably won't get to writing until this weekend ..
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:37 AM
Aug 2015

but understand ... I don't necessarily think you are incorrect in you analysis of the red state south.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
13. I'm a Tennessean and that debutante pyramid system was never whispered to me.
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 06:39 PM
Aug 2015

But, I grew up in the city.

The problems I see in the South are that it's still very rural and many rural voters seem brainwashed by the God, Gays and Guns issues. In rural areas, it's harder to get any sort of news that isn't part of the Right Wing Wurlitzer, so they honestly don't realize they're voting against their self-interests.

You are correct, however, that appealing to their economic interests is the best route. The problem I see in Democrats, nationally, is that they tend to talk "at" Southerners and not "with" them.

Because Bernie is from a fairly rural state (with lots of hunters!), he has more practice talking with rural voters. That's a plus.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
17. Interesting. How do we change this?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:00 AM
Aug 2015
The problem I see in Democrats, nationally, is that they tend to talk "at" Southerners and not "with" them.


I, of course, wrote about my personal experience. It was long ago, before Martin Luther King. And it was in the very deep South.

By talking at, rather than with, what do you mean?

How would you suggest changing that pattern?

I agree that Sanders is used to talking to rural voters and that is an asset.

I'm interested in more of what you have to say on this issue.

appalachiablue

(41,132 posts)
14. An OP titled 'understanding southern society' filled with this kind of generalizing,
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 08:12 PM
Aug 2015

stereotyping, offensiveness and ignorance is difficult to take seriously. Also curious for a democratic forum is the claim of superiority. If taken seriously, this would beat the band and disprove any GOP hold on stupidity. Not here.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
18. Are you from the South?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:04 AM
Aug 2015

I told about my experience in the South many years ago. I was a teenager.

Maybe my view is totally wrong.

I would like to hear your view especially if you have lived in the South or are a Southerner. We have racism everywhere in the US, but it particularly strong in the South.

Why do you think that is?

Do you think that is OK?

Or do you think we should do something about it?

And if you think we (Democrats and Americans in general) should do something about it, then what?

I'm really interested in people's views.

I wrote how I saw it, but I will be the first to admit I could be wrong and my view is not the only one.

I'd like to know what your view, and what your ideas for combating racism are. I think the generation of Martin Luther King did far more to promote understanding and harmony with regard to race than our generation is doing. And I think that is a huge mistake on the part of people in our time.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
15. Interesting, but too long
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 01:50 AM
Aug 2015

I think I get your gist, tho.

My feeling, extracted from years of activism, workingman, and Church going past, is that, like your debutante idea, there are 'special' people in the south, who if they conform to the PTB, are planted high on the pedestal.

I, being one who has not been planted but who is a rolling stone, have rolled against the types we agree are pedestally placed by the society.

Some of it goes back to the slavery past which was most definitely pedestal orientated. Some has to do with the education levels which are so vast in extremes.

Plus, if you are a bully, it is easier to get around down here. Or at least used to be. That is changing.

For the future, the internetal, educational and societal melting pot is bound to shake things up a good bit. Obama taking NC in 2008 was a sign.

Sorry for the new words, I just couldn't help myself.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
19. Thanks. I know my post is too long.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:07 AM
Aug 2015

But like old people do, I just started remembering these painful experiences of my teenage years.

It's interesting that your experiences are like mine because other DUers say their experiences in the South are not at all like mine.

Obama taking NC in 2008 was a very good sign. I hope you are right about the effect of the new technology in the South.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
21. Bernie will take NC
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:19 AM
Aug 2015

And there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I know a bunch of dumb-old rednecks, and quite a few young rednecks who are a whole lot wiser than the old ones were when they were young, so the youth will rise, and it will rise from the internet and the mixing of new people.

Change is not something the south is keen to grab onto. We like things pretty much as things are, and the republican shafting was change. So, what the hell, Obama was the less change.

Remember too, that the south was Dem because of the civil war republican carpetbaggers. What daddy was is important to many, but again, with education, that is falling away and the tide of republican vs Dem heritage is dieing.

I think Bernie is well positioned to step into that void.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
22. I'm very happy to see this:
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 02:26 AM
Aug 2015
with education, that is falling away and the tide of republican vs Dem heritage is dieing.


That is good news. Because it is the tide of that heritage that I was talking about. I lived in the South pre-Martin Luther King. Left to go to college and never really went back other than in the early years to visit my family. When they moved North, I never went South again.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
24. We have two templates for winning candidates in the South
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 04:52 AM
Aug 2015

One is an African American candidate in a majority-black district. The other is a centrist white woman.

For the first group, think Teri Sewell of AL-7 or Bennie Thompson of MS-2.

For the second group, think Gwen Graham of FL-2 or (until recently) Mary Landrieu from Louisiana. Graham was one of only two Democrats to beat a Republican incumbent last cycle, and she did so by running against Obama and Pelosi (as did the other pick-up we got, Ashford of NE-2).

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. We run barely Democrats in the South, but because it is the South they are far more
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 12:00 PM
Aug 2015

Democratic than the society around them.

What to do about the South?

I'm really asking that question in my post.

When I went to high school there, and it was long, long ago, before Kennedy's election and before Martin Luther King was a recognized, national figure, my high school history course pretty much ended right at the end of the Civil War. We didn't have time to get much beyond that. It was all just sort of skimmed. It was as if time had stopped for white people in the city in which I lived at the end of the Civil War. After that, nothing mattered. That was a long time ago. I'm sure things have changed. But then when I think that Wallace came after that, then Nixon's Southern Strategy and then I think of what is going on today, and I ask myself how do we every heal our wounds, and why are Black people always victimized by these angry people in the North and in the South. I do not understand it. I just wrote my observations of the time and what I can understand about them now. But I think we have to come to understand why racists feel as they do before we can do anything to change racism. And I do not understand why they feel as they do.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
28. What do do with the South?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 12:19 PM
Aug 2015

Make an effort to convince white folks that racism hurts white folks, too.

As discussed here: http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=420

And here: http://americaswire.org/drupal7/?q=content/tim-wise-white-crusader-against-racism-america

But pandering to white supremacy or patriarchy or heterosexism isn't the answer. And, as Tim Wise writes, being "nice" isn't the answer.

Also instructive is explaining what Tim Wise says about the creation of whiteness: " target="_blank">



What else can be done about the South? Take comfort in knowing the demographics are changing slowly but surely.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
30. I couldn't download the first link, but I especially liked this:
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 03:13 PM
Aug 2015
http://americaswire.org/drupal7/?q=content/tim-wise-white-crusader-against-racism-america

Thanks. He seems to see the problems as I do although he is emotionally closer and more involved in it. I simply left.

I hope people will watch the video you posted.

Have you posted this as a separate OP?

If not, I wish you would.

Thanks.

Very interesting. Most white people who haven't experienced how race is used in the South might not understand this.

BKH70041

(961 posts)
29. Southerners view themselves as individualists.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 01:32 PM
Aug 2015

Don't have time to get into much because of work, so this will be brief.

I don't see it as a race or class thing. Here's the foundation: They are individualists, not collectivists. Any politician that addresses them in terms other than "You can make it here in America because this is the land of opportunity" will be lost. Start getting into "we all gotta pull together" except for a few things like common defense, forget about it. Now if they decide as individuals to work together, that's OK because that's an individual choice. But what they perceive to be forced collectivism, that won't fly.

Sorry, this may be too brief and not explaining enough, but I'm short on time. If you wish to talk further, PM me and we can talk about this further as time permits.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
31. Do you think that they think of themselves as individualists because they don't want to think
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 03:26 PM
Aug 2015

of themselves as part of the human race if being part of the human race means being brothers and sisters and kin to African-Americans?

When I lived in the South, they were not very individualistic. They were very troubled by what people might think of them. They were extremely subject to peer pressure.

In my group of friends, most smoked in high school. I was an exception to that rule. I did not find them to be individualists at all. I think that is more a part of the myth, which I call the debutante pyramid, that they tell themselves.

They really don't have much courage to defy social norms, at least not publicly.

BKH70041

(961 posts)
32. I've never noted what you describe at all.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 03:45 PM
Aug 2015

What you describe I saw much more prevelant among the "intellegentsia" when I lived in Boston and SF, including the racism.

 

NYCButterfinger

(755 posts)
33. I think Democrats should fight hard for the South, if they want to be a national party. Period.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 03:53 PM
Aug 2015

I am not a Southerner. I am a Northerner. But if the Democrats can't win in Arkansas, Tennessee, West Virginia, Louisiana, Texas, then the Democrats will face problems. The party needs to appeal to working class white voters by providing a small business agenda, minimum wage, the issues of trade and economics. The party should not alienate the South. Period.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
34. Wow. Right or wrong this is one of the best thought out post I have ever
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 04:22 PM
Aug 2015

seen on DU. Thank you. I am also looking forward to the insight of those from the south.

As a reader of medieval history this is very interesting to me.

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