2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCan't the Cornel West apologists admit that his use of the word "n***ized"
with respect to the President, no matter what his philosophical intention behind it, is a gift to rightwing haters and bigots everywhere?
The bigots won't care about the context, or the policies, or any intellectual debate.
They'll just hear that word, uttered by a black scholar who's firmly on the Bernie team.
And it will give them a little thrill.
They can't be bigots -- look who else hates Obama.
Yup, everyone hates that "n***ized" President.
Even that black guy. The one with Bernie.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This is what, your third OP on the topic?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)has been selected to be on the Bernie team.
Yup, I've had other OP's on Cornel West. And I probably will as long as he's on the Bernie team, shooting his mouth off about Obama.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)To tell a black activist what to say, when to say it, what tone he should say it in, and who he is allowed to associate with.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Scootaloo, you are awesome.
NanceGreggs
(27,818 posts)... what he can or can't say, etc. No one.
What is being pointed out is that West has already said things that many people find downright repulsive.
Quite frankly, I don't care if BS - who is already struggling with gaining traction among AAs - chooses to embrace someone who they by and large despise. In fact, it only serves to demonstrate BS's poor judgment, his tone-deafness, and his inability to comprehend what's going on around him. Those are not traits one wants to see in a man who wants to be president.
The fact remains that AAs are huge Obama supporters, and West has made many truly disgusting remarks about him. If Bernie thinks that THIS is the man who will help him capture that elusive AA support, so be it. From a common sense point of view, it seems more like committing political suicide than an attempt to cultivate support among a key group of voters - but, hey, ain't my monkey, ain't my circus.
Bernie ain't going nowhere without the support of AAs and Obama supporters. And all the cheerleading in the world isn't going to change that fact.
You can argue all night about how West has a right to say what he said - and he certainly does. No one is debating the point. But the real point here is that BS has chosen to latch-on to a man who can only be a detriment to his goal of gaining support among AAs - and the fact that he has done so does not speak well of his decision-making abilities, nor his comprehension of the dynamics at play here.
brush
(53,843 posts)Hope the Sanders Campaign and his supporters somehow finally get it West is highly unpopular to most folks in the AA community.
Partnering with West is going to cause problems for them.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You've got a tough sell to convince me that Steve Harvey speaks for the whole of Black America. maybe he's further on that particular road than all the white Clinton supporters swearing up and down they're authorized to speak for black people, but... I'm pretty sure he's still a ways off the mark, there.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"Ain't my monkey"?
(cough)
What I know is that if West had decided to support Clinton, he would be getting a full-body embrace and more sneering would be coming out of you and the rest of the Clinton camp about Sanders' "black problem." Instead, you're trying to re-frame your argument that Sanders is getting "the wrong kind of blacks." While recycling the same "angry black man" rhetoric the Clinton campaign was using in 2008.
NanceGreggs
(27,818 posts)... about BS getting "the wrong kind of blacks".
BS chose to align himself with West - a man not well revered, shall we say, among AAs. We'll see how that goes.
Bernie has a "black problem", as you've put it. That problem was not created by the HRC campaign, nor the MSM, nor the PTB in the Party. Whether West proves to be "the wrong black" to have embraced is not up to me, but up to the AA demographic.
We'll see if West was the "wrong black" in due course.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)omg.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)I figured I'd click on it and see if you were here.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)NOT.
Some, and that is SOME African Americans here on this board, do not like West. That hardly means all. And you would be surprised, I am sure, of how many young people in the Inner City QUOTE West. They love him.
So the tautology alone is kind of amusing.
840high
(17,196 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)around him. And it is Bernie's problem not Cornel West.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Got it.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)President Obama belonged to the Church of Christ which is monstly a white denomination. They own Pepperdine University in Malibu. Rev. Wright never ebver used as a recruiting tool. He never ever went on the campaign trail with President Obama. What eventually came out was that the Obamas did not attend that regularly because of than candidate Obama's schedule (state senator, US senator, then president). It was simply white hysteria about nothing. But the candidate who doesn't have time for hate did something extraordinary. He fully owned the problem. then he gave the greatest speeech I've ever heard in 65 years on race entitled a MOre Perfect Union.
There's no comparison between Rev Wright and bernie's recruitment of Cornel West as part of his outreach strategy to AA folks. President Obama is the most beloved man in the AA community. Insults to or about PBO do not sit well with the AA community. We understand his great sacrifice. We understand that he gets more threats on a daily basis than all previous presidents combined and then some. He has the largest and most complex security detail. No president has done more or worked harder for the American people under extremely adverse political social and environmental conditions than President Obama.
JustAnotherGen
(31,879 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It was stupid when you guys tried it then. it's stupid now.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
They don't learn. How many more OPs like this one are in the queue? I'm guessing lots.
dsc
(52,166 posts)all he does is literally drive gays to suicide but I guess we gays don't count in your world. McClurkin was nothing about race it was about his hatred of gays pure and simple.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But Barack obama is not guilty for what that asshole does, is he?
dsc
(52,166 posts)paid for, Obama picked him to emcee for, and then let him give a half hour testimony about how God can remove the icky gay from you. He sure as hell helped build that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and policies that I don't like.
So according to Dr. West, that makes me "niggerized"
I resent it coming from Dr. West to describe me and I resent those of you Sanders supporters that think this language is appropriate.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But then, you know, I've actually gone back and read what the man has written, and tried to listen to the words he's spoken (it's hard - computer problems.) And what i'm finding really doesn't much resemble the claims of third-person narratives from Clinton supporters.
In fact what I'm seeing from Clinton supporters is exactly what I described. I've seen Cornell West labeled a "hustler" and "poverty pimp." I see Pnwmom's - among others - making OP after OP about how West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters. all without a single word about the substance of what west has said, only against the tone with which he said it.
It's my understanding that this sort of attitude and rhetoric is a real problem when Bernie supporters directed it at persons like Tia Oso or Marissa Johnson. Why has it suddenly stopped being a problem when Clinton supporters point it at Cornell west?
brush
(53,843 posts)I don't know how you can claim that as I've responded to your post with links to exactly what and how he trashed the President.
And your characterization that so called Clinton supporters are saying ". . .West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters" is edging very, very close to racism itself and you know very well no one in these West threads has said anything close to that but you.
Now here again are links where you can find West's vile accusations against the President and others so you won't have any excuse to say you don't know what the reasons are West is so despised by many in the AA community.
"The Rise and Fall of Cornel West" by Michael Eric Dyson..
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost
Melissa Harris-Perry on Cornel West
http://www.thenation.com/blog/160725/cornel-west-v-barack-obama#
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)and policies that I don't like.
So according to Dr. West, that makes me "niggerized"
As far as I've been able to tell, Dr. West actually has a very specific meaning when he uses the term (and his use of it predates the Obama administration by at least several years). Maybe I'm just crazy 'cause I actually look at and think about what was being said, and look for further remarks and details.
As for this bit?
No, I know that it is EXACTLY what is being said. The argument presented is that Cornell West "mouths off" and is not "respectful enough.' His "tone" is bad, and how dare he use words that make someone uncomfortable? It's the same shit that some Bernie supporters were doing in response to marissa Johnson last month, and if it's wrong when they did it (it was) then it should also be wrong when Clinton supporters do it (it is)
otherwise we enter this weird twilight zone where it's okay to be a racist shitbag towards black people, so long as those black people are supporting the "wrong" candidate. Where one standard exists for Sanders supporters and another, very much looser standard applies to Clinton supporters.
And thank you for the links to people who aren't Steve motherfucking Harvey. I'll have to go over 'em
brush
(53,843 posts)". . .West needs to shut his mouth and sit down, know his place and show the proper respect to his betters".
Because again, that is not just bordering on racism, it is over the line.
And in case you don't know (seems you don't know much about the AA community even though you have quite a lot to say as if you do), Steve Harvey's popularity is directly proportional to West's unpopularity, partly because he's backed Obama against West's slurs in that video link I sent you that you ridiculed.
And also because of his best selling books and advice on relationships to women, which apparently you are unaware of, and not to mention his radio and TV shows.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The criticisms of Dr. West here center around his tone, his word choice, and his lack of "proper respect." While it's true no one here has outright called the man "uppity," the only reason the haven't is because that's a good way to end up not posting here anymore. The intent is still there, when you spend your posts calling a black man "mouthy", "disrespectful," "hustler," and "pimp." All that's missing is "thug" to get the racist dog whistle bingo.
And again, when this same shitty rhetoric was being shot at Tia Oso, Marissa Johnson, and Mara Williford, it was condemned, and rightfully so, for being exactly that - demands that black voices sit down, shut up, and know their proper place. As with what is being directed at west, no one used those exact words in that exact order, but the rhetoric, coding, dog whistles, and context all made it pretty clear what was being said.
it works like that over on the republican side, too. does Donald Trump hate Mexicans? Pretty certain you think he does. he's never SAID he does, however. Instead you rely on the body of his "work" - the rhetoric, statements, contexts, and coding - from which you (rightfully) infer that Trump hates Mexicans.
This stuff is no more acceptable from Clinton supporters than it is from the supporters of other candiates.
brush
(53,843 posts)It that your game?
FYI, since you seem to not want to get it, again, West is highly unpopular in the AA community because of the things he's said about Obama.
I don't care if you feel it was about tone and not substance or policy, or what BLM protesters said or were or weren't called, using Cornell West as a surrogate to woo votes in the black community from Hillary was not the smartest choice.
That's not a hard concept to understand. That's what I'm saying. Forget all the other bs. The Sanders campaign wants Obama coalition votes, which no Dem can win without, yet chooses a well know Obama hater to partner with.
Duh!
I'll give Bernie the benefit of the doubt and go with his advisers as the ones who made the West decision.
Given that, I must say Bernie was not well served by his advisers in this instance. I do hope less tone deaf, better researched decisions are made in the future as those are important characteristics I look for in a candidate and a president because even though you might not thing so, I am still undecided.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I actually do not feel that I am in a position to condemn or praise him on it. The closest I'll offer to an opinion is that i think his statements are probably best taken as a whole, rather than in five-word soundbytes - but this is a standard i hold for pretty much anyone, so I can't say that it's special for West.
Look, I get that a lot of people have reservations about West. I've looked around on my own, and he's definitely a controversial figure, but it's really not my space to get involved in black people talking about a black intellectual or anything. I'm not going to take you as the "final word," but I understand you're not just talking completely out your ass, either. As far as I can see though, that particular discussion just doesn't involve me.
My point here is on the hypocritical reversal of standards on display from Clinton supporters. To spend the entire month of August taking swings at Sanders supporters for things directed at Black Lives Matters protesters, and then, a few weeks later, use the exact same rhetoric towards Dr. West? While taking magnifying glasses and counting brown pixels in photos? And strumming that shitty "Jews vs. Blacks" bass line like they've been doing since April?
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)I would.
But I am not going to sit up and debate with white people as to whether Dr. West's use of the word "niggerized" is appropriate to use of the first African American president of the United States or people who support the president.
An overwhelming majority of African Americans have said that it is not OK that one of the most prominent public intellectuals in the world (regardless of ethnicity, although that is a significant factor in Dr. West's case) hurls racial epithets at the first African American president. This is not a subject for white people to debate with African Americans.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)West's rhetorical choices are not what I am debating here.
But I will say? If you don't want to discuss a topic with someone, then broaching it as a topic of discussion with them is probably counter-productive.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I am not white.
You claim that an overwhelming majority of AA's dislike him. Give me proof. And no, you don't get to recycle two well known hit pieces on West as your proof.
I know a damned many who respect West, hell even love the man for his passion and his fight for social and economic justice which has been going on for decades.
We agree that it is not kosher for whites to be throwing around the 'nigger' word, but in our own community, we use that word all the time from musical references to little jabs to friendly ribbing to outright criticisms of each other. Within the context of the full quote, yes, Obama's actions pre election and then post election show that he did embrace the 'white supremacy' culture and has done very little to truly support our communities since taking office.
More cops killing our young men and women have occurred on his watch than any other! His AG spent his years covering for the white fuckers who own the banks while pushing the failed 'war on drugs' which everyone knows and has researched, disproportionately causes harm to OUR communities more than any other with the exception of another group of 'brown' people - hispanics & latino! His neoliberalism New Dem policies and positions continue that ridiculous separation of economic and social justice issues. Obama will 'evolve' on gay marriage rights but has done nothing to stop another 2008 Wall Street cluster-fuck from happening again. The stock market is strong while Detroit goes bankrupt.
So you dislike him and think it was a bad move. Others in our community does not. Time will show which of us is correct and why.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)that west has used in criticizing President Obama. If you read black blogs and listened to black radio, you would know that
BTW, jus because you are no white doesn't not mean that you are African American and that may not .be the same cultural contexts
but in our own community, we use that word all the time from musical references to little jabs to friendly ribbing to outright criticisms of each other.
the problem here is that Dr. West's audience is much bigger than "our community" (as the number of youtube clips including Dr. West illustrates)
TM99
(8,352 posts)Not all, and I still don't see you providing proof that it is the majority.
So I am bi-racial and because my mother is white, I am not black enough now?
Back away from that bigoted shit right now. I have had a foot in both communities my entire life. I definitely won't get into another because I am bi-racial, I am not black enough to comment on AA issues debate with the likes of someone who plays that card when they can't argue or prove their point with facts.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Are idiots harming the causes they claim to serve (I think they all really are just out to get attention to themselves) by using intentionally inflammatory tactics that marginalize them and their cause.
It's not about labeling them as uppity or knowing their place. It's about how to effectively impact change. It's about not setting up an antagonistic approach that will drive people away from the cause they claim to support.
You don't seem to be willing to consider that there is any explanation other than racism, but I believe that much of the criticism is rooted in either a similar framework as I do, or in the context of supporting their preferred candidate. But neither West or the women from Seattle should get away with boorish behavior because of their race or because somebody might label their critics as racist.
840high
(17,196 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)meant for the OP.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You are consistently playing up the one word and ignoring the deep meaning of the cultural analysis that lies behind it.
That is the kind of anti-intellectual gamesmanship that I loathe.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)(not that there is one), his supporters would be up in arms.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Cornel is very much a part of the BLM movement.
You are being a hypocrite.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Do you think any amount of logic or reasoning would have made that acceptable?
Well, it's no more acceptable to say that Obama is "n****ized."
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Also it is a bad analogy.
Cornel did not call Obama the "N" word. He was describing a social process.
It would be more akin to saying that Bernie was part of the white supremacy structure of US politics.
Ironically, Bernie is the only one with the courage to allow that message to be delivered.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Just my opinion. You know, from one white person to another.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Suddenly the Clinton supporters run from the term.
Wake me up when Hillary has the guts and conviction to have herself introduced by a black person who uses that phrase!
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)... and now you have a problem with it?
You might want to work on consistency because lack of it makes your tactical assaults on Bernie laughable.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)"White Supremacist Liberals"
Also, flipping off the press when they asked questions was a nice touch.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)ok.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Why is Bernie choosing to align himself with a scholar who has angered much of the AA community with his slurs against Obama?
I think he's making a mistake, but it's not too late to undo it.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)even if we are offended by some of the things they say/do, then turn around and tell us that we need to ignore BLM activists they don't like (and disparaging said activists).
Of course, West being arrested with dozens of BLM activists (including prominent leaders) protesting the DOJ was mostly ignored here. Some people's support for movements (and members of those movements) doesn't go beyond "will this help me politically."
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... or some shit like that.
If a white person said such liberal or conservative theyd' be up in arms
They'll keep twisting reality to suit their ends.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm not in an accommodating mood toward Republicans, and I'm not disposed to pragmatism at the moment.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)whose feelings got hurt when he didn't get special tickets to the inauguration.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)being a Democrat wouldn't make it acceptable.
Response to pnwmom (Reply #13)
Post removed
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Dr. West is very articulate in his criticism of the President. This is a classic technique used by Obama's most ardent supporters to conflate any criticism as hatred, or as merely lashing out because of some perceived slight.
Barky Bark
(70 posts)"A niggerized black person is a black person who is afraid and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy," West explained. "So when many of us said we have to fight against racism, what were we told? 'No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, political calculations. He's the president of all America, not just black America.' We know he's president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie."
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)would NOT excuse West, since you are the one implying as much in your OP claim here.
Iris
(15,666 posts)West is a grown man whose each and every utterance does not need to be condoned by the President.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)an oppressed minority simply because it isn't politically expedient. That's ugly. Wests words are revelatory.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bernie has given wingnuts, righties and racists and probably some emoprogs permission to call my beloved President the N-word. Oh well. As PBO would say, it's the silly season.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)See any problem?
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)the choice of the candidate Bernie Sanders.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Unless you are doing the guilt be association thing ala Jeremiah Wright, that is. But that makes sense considering that was Hillary's modus operandi in 2008.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bernie is not bad. However, Bernie is the leader of his campaign. Cornel is his choice. Cornel West has a right to say anything he wants. But when you wrap your arms around him and you're candidate, you get the blowback. Folks are mocking Bernie on Twitter about using Cornel West as a strategy for recruiting black folks. Most of us think it's funny. We're not mad at Bernie. We just think he's clueless.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I see a man of courage, who does not calculate, who is always consistent.
He does not run from Cornel's language because he is, at heart, a man with the heart of a justice-seeker and protester.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)A tiresome, old wedge to pit Democrat against Democrat. I can't even...
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)They SCREAMED that Bernie should allow BLM to storm on stage and be handed a mic, to be given a voice to discuss black issues.
Now they are SCREAMING that Bernie should not give a great black scholar a mic because what? He used harsh language?
And the thing is, it IS harsh. But harsh rhetoric is ALWAYS involved when there is great social inequality to be dealt with.
The demand for sanitized voices only... how can they stand their hypocrisy?
ancianita
(36,133 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Frederick Douglass
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Why are you quoting a RACIST?
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)if he wins the DEM nomination, he's got my vote. That's how I roll. I may not like Bernie or his supporters but he will have my vote. Pettiness is something I leave to others. I'm too old, too smart too well educated too sane to vote for any of that ignorant racist sexist homophobic xenophobic trash on the other side.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)And I'm still laughing (and Frank Zappa is puking in his grave at the way his good name has been misappropriated).
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)his spirit is Democratic, Socialist, Christian in the best sense (and I'm an atheist), and he always stands with The People. When he criticizes anyone as complicit with corporate oppressors I'll support him no matter how he says it.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)brush
(53,843 posts)of West trashing the President.
That'll sure go over well, 24/7 ads of Bernie's surrogate bashing Obama with the most vile language imaginable and looking for Obama coalition votes (90% of black voters, 67% of Latino/a voters, 55% of women voters).
Stay in denial and keep thinking West won't be a problem for Bernie.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)than they already are. You definitely underrate public awareness these days.
First of all, West won't be stumping with Bernie, except where HE decides Bernie needs exposure and endorsement. Hillary would count herself lucky to have similar AA leaders introduce her. But the idea of the BS camp it to get Americans excited about voting again.
I think you sell the Democratic Party short. GOP ads like you envision would be all Democrats and youth need to see to unite, double down on the GOTV effort just like they did for Obama in 2007.
And they'll be called Bernietards.
brush
(53,843 posts)Talk about underrating a problem.
Dislike of West is no secret in the black community.
Looks like the Sanders campaign and his supporters don't know this.
Too bad. It'll be their loss.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)pulse of 15% of the U.S.?
I know I don't.
It's probably a mixed bag, but we can't go down infighting over two fellow Democratic Socialists.
I mean, come ON.
brush
(53,843 posts)It's as simple as that. Surely there are other prominent AA Sanders supporters to partner with without all the negative baggage West has.
Where were the campaign researchers? Why didn't they uncover West's unpopularity among the group they are targeting to woo voters over from?
If you aren't aware of why West is so unpopular, here are some links from fellow black intellectuals discussing their souring relationships with West:
"The Rise and Fall of Cornel West" by Michael Eric Dyson..
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121550/cornel-wests-rise-fall-our-most-exciting-black-scholar-ghost
Melissa Harris-Perry on Cornel West
http://www.thenation.com/blog/160725/cornel-west-v-barack-obama#
TM99
(8,352 posts)know exactly what all blacks and bi-racial men and women feel or want.
Do you know how many of us are extremely disappointed by Obama. He campaigned one way and has governed another. Do you know how many of us value the intellectual acumen and political activism of Dr. West? He has been a consistent and congruent strong and passionate voice for social and economic justices for decades.
What you Clinton supporters are caught up in is the drama of a high school student council election. Y'all are obsessed with personalities. Y'all are obsessed with how someone, anyone might say something bad about that one or good about this one. It is black and white for y'all. Someone is either all fucking good or all fucking bad.
Well my friend, that is not reality in the adult world. No one is all good or all bad. When we obsess over persona in adulthood and do all we can to protect others from seeing our authentic self then we generally are labeled narcissists. In adulthood we look for congruency and consistent of rhetoric and action to know whether someone is authentic and trustworthy.
You are Clinton supporter. So why are you worried about one very tame intro speech by Dr. West for Sanders on the campaign trail? And if you are so concerned about associations and how the candidate might look when and if they reach the general election, well hell stop trying to remove the splinter from my eye, and start removing the log from yours. Clinton has so many lying surrogates, questionable associations, and so much scandalous & self-inflicted baggage that she is a shoe in to lose the GE, not win it!
brush
(53,843 posts)the Sanders campaign's choice of a well known Obama basher as a surrogate that I am a Hillary supporter.
You are wrong. I'm still undecided but many of you Sanders supporters are so insufferable it's becoming harder and harder to ignore all the bs to focus on what your candidate has to offer.
I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with his advisers being the ones who made the decision to bring on West.
Given that, I must say Bernie was not well served by his advisers in this instance. I do hope less tone deaf, better researched decisions are made in the future as those are important characteristics I look for in a candidate and a president.
TM99
(8,352 posts)are and how much concern is misplaced for him and his campaign, I am quite sure you will be a Clinton supporter.
You see an Obama basher. The rest of us see a fellow black man not afraid to call out a black man who used him and others like Rev. Wright to get elected on flowery progressive rhetoric, only to immediately pivot right in to his true governance stance - a moderate Republican or neoliberal New Dem.
And thanks for proving my point about personalities deciding your choice. You have a great evening.
brush
(53,843 posts)quite a bit despite repug obstructionism from his first day in office.
If Bernie can do as much with the same opposition he is sure to get from the repugs he will be a successful president.
He has to get there first though and choosing an Obama hater to woo votes from a community that for the most part reveres Obama is not smart.
Answer me this. I keep asking why not another prominent AA supporter to partner with instead of someone with Obama-hating baggage?
No Sanders supporters seems to want to answer that.
TM99
(8,352 posts)on Obama's 'accomplishments' so this is neither the time or place to have that debate.
Did you even watch the video of West's introductory speech? Honestly, did you?
Because if you had, you would realize your 'Obama hater' bullshit wouldn't fly. West is a Democratic Socialist just like Sanders. They both agree that economic and social justice are two sides of the same coin. They can NOT be separated. West is a prominent BLM activist. He was writing and teaching about the issues needing address more concretely today decades ago. Long before Marissa Jones was old enough to even know that 'white supremacy' is a description of institutionalized & systemic racism and NOT a personal attack on white liberal allies, West was writing and teaching about that.
West and I disagree on the question of God. He is a solid Christian, and I am an ignostic pagan. But I met a man who for decades has preached inclusivity and justice for ALL not just brown and black skinned people. He sees and preaches about the lack of economic equality for the poor 'nigga' in Harlem as well as the poor 'redneck' in Appalachia. That is the same thing that Sanders campaigns on political. It would therefore be a natural fit.
Does this mean that West is his right hand man? Fuck no. Please it was ONE fucking speech! Will there be other prominent AA supporters that endorse and work with Sanders. Hell yes! Some of them should be doing it now but fuck 'em. They are scared of the DC and Clinton machine. But once her numbers get lower and lower and Sanders starts winning more and more state primaries, they will be there in droves.
So yes, I answered your question. You just won't like the answer and will dismiss it.
brush
(53,843 posts)he comes with the baggage of being an Obama hater.
All I am saying is, since no Dem candidate can win without the Obama coalition votes, in the
primaries or the general, what sense does it make to partner with someone who is despised by
a big part of the Obama coalition?
Wooing black votes is the issue not whether West is brilliant or a socialist who talks of
economic equality like Bernie. He's despised in the black community and him being associated
with the Sanders campaign could very well turn off the very voters Bernie needs to win.
I feel the pairing with West was not vetted well. If proper research had been done his unpopularity in the AA community would have been uncovered.
I chalk up this misstep as an "unforced error" by the Sanders campaign, just as using a private email server is an "unforced error" by Hillary Clinton.
TM99
(8,352 posts)It has not been objectively shown that West giving one introductory speech is an unforced error on the part of the Sanders campaign. Clinton's willful abuse of the system and avoiding playing by the rules on one hand and lying on the other is definitely a self inflicted wounds that shows objective negative consequences.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)imo.
the racist ugliness from 2008 shines on.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I thought he just introduced him at a speech, but it sounds like he might be asked to be VP?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Had a wonderful demonstration of it back in 2008, after all.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Are we reading the same thread?
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But then again, using inflammatory language is not at all inconsistent with activism.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)is supposed to have enough political saavy to know how that choice might play in the community he's trying to "reach" out to.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Bernie could've aligned himself with Deray (BLM) who's going to be teaching at Yale. But he didn't
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You don't give a fuck what Cornell West said. Your problem is that he's standing next to Bernie.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)that I thought was bullshit.)
ancianita
(36,133 posts)but you don't. Move ON, already.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)ancianita
(36,133 posts)Then you don't know Obama.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)i know the President doesn't give a shit but we the AA voters and we're not having it. We always have PBO's back. Always.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)got PBO's back, too. Was a full donor and canvassed in two states -- twice -- and flew workers from California to Ohio to help up to election night there. Get Christmas cards from the Obamas, too. Got invited to the inaugural, too, but couldn't afford the trip, and won't hold words against an AA intellectual for fussing. Which is all it was.
Veiled attacks on Sanders though West, I'm not having that.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)running. Bernie is running. And Cornel was his choice, a really stupid choice but his nonetheless.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)if it's good for one side of an argument, it's good for the ither side, too. don't you think?
brush
(53,843 posts)West continues with it.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I wrote them off years ago. They're too daft to be aware of the quote or to look much into it. If the media plays it up the bigots and righties will be the only ones that get worked up over it. Perhaps Jack Meoffer will let Bill O'Reilly know!
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)Do you want to use the word ?
is that the issues ?
I'm pretty sure you had to spell it out in your head than add the asterisks in
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)than to call him the N word.
Criticism of policies: fine, go for it.
Ugly, person attacks using racial language: not fine.
Truprogressive85
(900 posts)Are you saying Dr. West is a racist
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)That doesn't make him a racist himself; just someone using those words to get attention.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)pnwmom
(108,994 posts)From dictionary.com
noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)he wants without my approval.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)You could enlighten yourself.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)"A person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial."
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)I first learned the word in the context of "Christian apologetics." So I looked it up and found out it had nothing to do with apologizing for anything -- just defending something, with logical arguments.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I look forward to your next chapter in this saga.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)whole issue of his relationship with West, the candidates as well as the whole Republican party will be not only accused vociferously, for once, of being sympathetic to Obama, god forbid, but also guilty of a racist double standard of disallowing "freeee" speech to AA leaders.
If that doesn't shut them up, Obama will make an appearance at a Big Campaign Event and 'splain how free speech works and how it doesn't reflect on any racism or character flaw within the Democratic Party or AA's criticism of him.
It will be okay.
brush
(53,843 posts)the easily accessible clips of a Sanders surrogate, West< trashing the sitting Dem president with the vilest gutter language imaginable.
Think that'll go over well in getting Obama coalition votes?
I don't.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)Nobody pays attention to your important issues until you do something radical.
It's like you don't exist.
Dr. West has sometimes said things that are not socially respectable.
Nobody listens otherwise.
He understood the cost. He knew he would be shunned by many in the Black community for insulting Obama.
Just like some have called Noam Chomsky a self-hating Jew for criticizing Israel.
Yeah it's unfortunate Dr. West insulted the president but he knew the cost, and he sacrificed his own respectability to get attention for his cause.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)words. I've said it on this board before and I've said it in real life
I don't give a flying fuck what bigots will say or do. Progressives and Dems have cowered and silenced themselves too long under the bloviating bullying of the likes of Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Savage, and a host of other bigots.
It is the likes of them that compelled Obama to fire Van Jones, a black man, and to repudiate his pastor, a black man. Shirley Sherrod, a black woman, fired. Jocelyn Elders, a black woman, forced to step down. It was the clamoring of bigots and the weakness liberals that allowed bigotry to prevail.
Enough is enough.
azmom
(5,208 posts)The Democratic Party, hate Obama, West, and Sanders. They hate Obama and West for being black and they hate Sanders for being a socialist Jew.
If they are loving anything, it is the fact that we are all fighting against each other instead of coming together to fight against a racist and oppressive system.
ancianita
(36,133 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Is that the only thing you have against Cornel West saying it? That he was giving 'ammo' to the gop?
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)WAAAAAAHHHH, he was a meanie-pants to Obama!!!! WAAAAAAHHHH, he was racist (lol) to Obama!!!!!!
What are you going to cry about next, AA rappers using "nigga" in their lyrics?
Come on. Obama disappointed all progressives. He would not deny that if he were sitting with us right now. And Obama would also defend West's right to criticize a sitting POTUS in harsh language. So what's the problem? Presidents are public figures, not sacred cows. West did not betray Obama any more than Obama betrayed the legion of AA progressives who helped elect him.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)mhatrw
(10,786 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)are supposedly quoting the man. I guess you're misquoting the man. You've given the words of another man so much power you can't even bear to type them lest. . . Shit - I don't really know what might happen if you spelled it like he said it.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)As a white person, I'd rather err on the considerate side so as not to offend African Americans -- even if people like you think that makes me "quite childish."
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)I'm not going to start with Dr.West.
fereal.
Response to JackInGreen (Reply #115)
mhatrw This message was self-deleted by its author.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...at all when West used it. That said, he's an academic, and they sometimes use incendiary language in order to make a point. It reminds me of BLM using the term "white supremacists" in Seattle -- apparently the phrase is commonly used in academic discussions of racism in our society, but many of us found it offensive at the time. It also reminds me of Ward Churchill's use of the term "little Eichmanns" after 9/11. While at one level I got his point, at another level I found it deeply offensive -- just like West's remarks about Obama. But I don't think West's language w.r.t. Obama means he must be ostracized from polite society, which seems to be the position of some here.
While I wish he would apologize for the wording he used, that doesn't seem likely. So we're left with a prominent black academic who has made some questionable remarks, and who likes Bernie Sanders. Who would be a better black person for Bernie to have on his side? Reverend Wright? How about Al Sharpton? They both have used some pretty questionable rhetoric from time to time too. Of course, Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright once their association became controversial, so maybe Bernie should learn from that and run from Dr. West.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Since when does anyone on DU have to answer to you?
Give it a rest, you're not fooling anyone with this tripe.
And get off your high horse, after the way you talked about transgender women you don't deserve to be up there.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Jappleseed
(93 posts)No need to apologize or cast aside yet another black person Hillary does not agree with. Hillary and her attacks on blacks must stop.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and teach that we are 'inherently disordered'? Yes, you are such a white straight person. You not only associate yourself with such vile hateful speech, you promote the purveyor of that speech as a great man to be emulated and you attack anyone who dares object to the denigration of our families.
Stunningly massive hypocrisy. The fact is that you have a whole different standard for LGBT when attacked by persons you like.
Cake and eat it too.
aikoaiko
(34,183 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)So I can easily see which minority's views are acceptable and which are not. It's dizzying trying to figure out which black person's opinion I'm supposed to accept as the prevailing acceptable view, which woman's, which gay person's, etc.
I suspect earners of the sticker will be whatever's helpful to Clinton.
But I think we should hand out badges, just in case.
Oh oh, maybe we can even get special avatars! And then we don't even have to read someone's words. We can just look at the picture and nod sagely, secure in the knowledge, "Yes, this is the minority voice I may recognize as the One True Opinion."
No thinking necessary.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Then you don't have to pick and choose, you will understand your stuff...makes for good reading, as well.
Unbelievable.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Many around here, however . . .
Although, I suspect you'll discover that soon enough.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)On Dr. West alone, I've been reading him for...what, 23 years now (although not much lately; "issues" cropped up). I can discuss West in multiple contexts.
Much of that black intellgensia crew of the 90's...I'm pretty versed in as well as much of the past and a little of the present.
African American intellectual thought is very diverse and very conflicted, as Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote.
Prism
(5,815 posts)I've read a lot of his work and even saw him speak in Berkeley about five years ago. However, I haven't been thrilled about his shift in tone over the course of the Obama administration. It feels counterproductive and alienating. Even when I agree with the context of his remarks, it's always like, "Seriously? You, a man of your education, couldn't find a more politic way to phrase that?" As someone who likes Sanders, I have mixed feelings about West joining the campaign.
Coates, however, is a national treasure right now. I've enjoyed him since he first started at the Atlantic (I found him via Andrew Sullivan, who I like decidedly less).
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)and especially after he was in The Matrix it seemed as if he lost his way, with regards to written philosophy (although I have praised his bringing philosophy to the streets)
Peacetrain
(22,878 posts)in his attacks on President Obama on this board.. sad but true
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)He is entitled to his opinion, and as a highly intelligent academic he probably selected his language knowing full well the effect was intended to shake his audience from complacency.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Nor is it my place to tell a black professor when and if or how he should use it.
I can't bring myself to be that presumptuous.