2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHistory making Turning Point ahead!
The polls will catch fire from the Berning this very week.
Those leopards whose spots wont change will get more vicious than ever.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)something big - for better or for worse - is going to take place. I sure hope it will
be fpr the better, for all of us.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)will be crystal clear; Main Street or Wall Street? IMNSHO, HRC's poll numbers will slide by 5-7 points, and Sanders' will rise by about the same. The same will happen after the second and third debates. By Thanksgiving, HRC will be claiming she's the "real socialist" in this contest...
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)There's a weather vane out there somewhere
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)O'Malley would seem to be an excellent alternative falling between HRC and Sanders (but far closer to her of course), particularly for all those who really want a male to vote for who is not an elderly extremist. If Biden doesn't run, HRC's real threat could come from O'Malley.
HRC will take some hits for past choices she deserves criticism for. I'd recommend not pinning too much hope on them, though. Back then, a majority of people in this country also supported more punitive sentencing and the Second Iraq War, even if most gave them both less consideration than they would choosing a new blender.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)Sanders represents what the Democratic party once proudly stood for before Third Way Triangulation dragged us to the right.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)His social policies at most don't go far beyond traditional progressive democratic ideals, which is to also say mine.
However, progressive liberals, including me, have never accepted most of where he'd like to take this country economically, much less tried to implement it. The fact is, the private profit motive is a powerful fuel for the engine of production. We'd be foolish to toss it out because WE let it get out of hand instead of just using it better.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)He simply believes in the radical notion that capitalism should serve the citizens, not the other way around.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)He simply isn't running on what he believes in because he knows he cannot accomplish it. The same thing HRC is constantly criticized for, as a matter of fact. I do pay him the respect of believing he means what he says, however.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)everything else you're saying is BULLSHIT. You made an accusation, now back it up.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Document yourself. He's your candidate. You should know this stuff.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)You are right, he is my candidate, and I know he has never done what you assert. So lets try this again. Either back up your smokescreen with some factual links or you've proven yourself a LIAR.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)You made several baseless smear attacks on Bernie and when questioned have no answers. But your words remain for all to see! You should probably delete those posts and go on your merry way, maybe somewhere Purple?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)elderly, and a large portion of this country will see him as an extremist compared to themselves. Literally determined to in many tens of millions of cases. Or do you imagine the conservative half of our populace rallying around him?
You guys need to toughen up. I admire what Bernie's accomplishing and support most of his current positions. I'm delighted that he's pulling the Democratic Party left. But just wait until all the people who really don't like him get started. The GOP's already using him as a weapon to attack the Democratic Party.
BTW, I'm not a personality cult type of person. There will never be a candidate so...captivating that I would get outraged by someone pointing out the obvious.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)That makes Hillary an elderly extremist too..
I'm younger than both of them and consider myself elderly, "Old fossil" is how my younger brother greets me.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)is a genuine negative that is going to be used against him. Big time. He's 74 now and looks it. The 60s may have become for many people a late middle age, but nobody argues that 70s is anything but physiologically old.
That's without even considering the tremendous age bias against older people. Can you imagine Bernie getting hired for a middle management position by the typical corporation?
BTW, you and I probably should work on our attitudes. I'm sinking lazily into elderly myself (working at home is NOT helping), and Bernie says it's way too early.
Time_Lord
(60 posts)go look up Democratic socialist - that is what Bernie identifies as.. not socialist itself.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)will appear to most of America in comparison to all the other candidates. That's even without them trying to cast him as extreme if he does well enough for them to need to.
Your job is to ignore the word extremist, when used, and point out to everyone you know that he's very consistently voted with the Democratic Party throughout his time in the Senate. Make him sound like a more principled Hillary, in fact.
Time_Lord
(60 posts)I think the word "socialist" has lost its scare factor.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Personally, I'm not underestimating the power of ignorance, though, much less of bias. Most people just "know what I know."
Or forget the constant aggressive hostility of the right, which will try to make him sound like one of Satan's minions.
At least "socialist" is working for him too, gathering up a share of the protest voters who want to smite, or spite as the case may be, the party establishments.
Very interesting election!
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)and he won't seem extreme at all. That typical politicians play it safe will actually make Sanders look better, not extreme.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)a columnist's impression of Bernie's "palpable sense of conviction." Its causes are both good and bad, but in the debate other candidates may come off squishy in comparison.
And Bernie may tend to be contemptuous of those who don't share his views, but he's not stupid. He won't let that side of him show. He also has his mainstream Democrat Senate record to point to, and it would be really surprising if he said anything that might sound at all "extreme" to moderate America. We already have a lot of progressive and socialist programs we're fond of, after all, and once had more.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Martin is likable and looks nice. I've met him. However, I think he is too lightweight for what we need in this country.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)but I don't think he has what it takes. Maybe VP?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)governor of Maryland. Did the legislature there walk all over him? In any case, if HRC got the nomination I would like the idea of him as VEEP very much.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)His pump-priming Keynesian economic philosophy made him loathed by the right wing locusts, which then as now were addicted to that giant sucking sound -- even as the nation lay in ruins as a result.
FDR, himself an old-family wealthy Brahmin, is also credited with saving capitalism at a time when many looked to socialism to rescue America, feeling that capitalism had failed dreadfully.
FDR was also every bit as charismatic and inspiring as Ronald Reagan, and also quite a good actor.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)socialist in the real sense of the word but what he was was open to new ideas and changes. He was in not way status quo.
And you are correct his moves like Bernie's plans were designed to save capitalism and protect true democracy.
As I never considered RR inspiring. He was a hack. And the rise in Bernie's polls indicates that he is very popular. I first voted for JFK and I will not matter what others say be voting for Bernie. He has good positions on the issues and I don't think he will sell me out at the last minute.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)right? It would be nice to have another man of FDR's leadership ability, but even if we did these times are very different. FDR would not be able to do now what he did then. It'll take a lot more time, more commitment by more people, but we can get there if WE stick it. If WE fight for the changes WE want and not be distracted only into following any one person, who may or may not be able take us very far.
BTW, I was just reading a NY Times piece about Bernie that describes a "palpable sense of conviction." In an era when people don't trust politicians, that should really help him Tuesday night.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)sound like Bernie in this first paragraph. A movement that does not rely on personalities but on the people. Sounds good to me.
BooScout
(10,406 posts)Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)(when, just like in 08' she'll be insisting others pay off her debts)....
Time_Lord
(60 posts)If that's allowed..
Then hopefully Bernie will end the Citizen United nonsense shortly and put together an excellent CFR package.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)The media will look for something unexpected to make their story around.
I expect Wednesday it could be Chafee gained most from debate performance.
Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)be careful what you wish for. One of my dearest friends is a hardcore Red Sox fan, and when they finally went all the way he went through several years of listless lack of focus, as though he'd lost part of his life's purpose..... he's fine now, but I'm just sayin...