2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumTIME: Why Climate Change and Terrorism Are Connected (Sanders leading the way on this issue)
TIME:Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders used the terrorist attacks in Paris to call for action to address climate change at a primary debate Saturday. But, while the plea attracted ridicule across the political spectrum, many academics and national security experts agree that climate change contributes to an uncertain world where terrorism can thrive.
U.S. military officials refer to climate change as a threat multiplier that takes issues like terrorism that would pose a threat to national security and exacerbates the damage they can cause. A 2014 Department of Defense report identifies climate change as the root of government instability that leads to widespread migration, damages infrastructure and leads to the spread of disease. These gaps in governance can create an avenue for extremist ideologies and conditions that foster terrorism, the report says.
The parallels between the situation described in the government report and the situation on the ground in Syria are striking. The worst drought on record in the Middle Eastern country has created instability for farmers and threatened the food supply. At the same time, the government has struggled to hold on to power across the country in the face of militant groups and millions of Syrians have fled their homeland.
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Indeed, a paper published in the academic journal PNAS earlier this year argues that climate change helped create instability and fighting in Syria. The Islamic State, commonly known as ISIS, arose in the country in large part due to that instability. And, now, ISIS has claimed responsibility for a number of recent terrorist attacks including this weeks assault in Paris and the downing of a Russian jet over Egypts Sinai Peninsula.
So, straighten up, mockers. Ya might learn something "revolutionary" from the professor.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)Facts mean nothing to a lot of people here unless they can be twisted in their favor.
seafan
(9,387 posts)Then they fight you.
Then you win.
We won't allow shortsightedness to get in the way of the facts. Ever.
brooklynite
(94,679 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Qutzupalotl
(14,321 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)if you want to change the topic to Hillary that would be fine. i was referring to Sanders NOT actually leading the way on this at all.
Bernie supporters giving a lot of credit to Sanders for issues that were not his originals, this was one more example.
Qutzupalotl
(14,321 posts)If not, he would be leading the way for the other candidates.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)BUT, you may come to what ever conclusion you want to come to, based on what I said. I can't force you to do the decent thing and take my words at face value without twisting it into something that was never said or even implied.
PS the op did not qualify that Bernie was leading the way "amongst candidates". That is you also changing the words of the OP. The OP intended that Bernie was ahead of everyone, and he wasnt. not only was he not ahead , but as you have probably read down thread, he was off too.
Qutzupalotl
(14,321 posts)Everyone? How do you come to that conclusion? You think the OP is saying Bernie is a climate scientist and social scientist? I don't think anyone is arguing that.
This is GDP. We discuss candidates here. It's perfectly acceptable for the OP to say Sanders is leading on this issue among candidates and leave the "among candidates" implied.
As for Sanders being "off," the DoD disagrees.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and yes, it appears that in the rush to make Bernie the first and the winner in this train of thought, the OP didn't think their heading out very well.
While you may try and do well by the OP to be supportive and tell me what you think the OP means, it's clear the OP isn't changing their heading to reflect any accuracy at all.
as for being Off, read post #9
Qutzupalotl
(14,321 posts)It's MaggieD's opinion, and she disagrees with the Pentagon that climate change is a greater threat than terrorism. Who cares?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Glad to see Hillary has at least one atheist supporters.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I know Hillary is strong about her faith, but it's good to see an atheist who is willing to overlook that.
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Congratulations and welcome to the atheist vermin brigade![/font]
Heddi
(18,312 posts)aren't you glad that you stole a badge used to represent Atheist Bernie Sanders Supporters? That's so great!!! And I say "stole" because these badges were created by a DU'er for use by his friends -- not just anyone who decided to steal an image and repurpose it for their own causes which, I know, go against his values and beliefs.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Just kinda nabbed that for yourself did ya? It's cool, the more Atheist Sanders supporters the better I say.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)which I don't support.
But hey, this the internet, anyone can steal anything rather than create something, I guess.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Rob H.
(5,352 posts)and customizing multiple Photoshop files.
Thanks for responding to a polite request from the person who created the orignal graphic with what basically comes across as "Fuck you, I'm going to keep using it." Nicely done.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)You are using a graphic in your sig line that was created by someone else for use by his friends, all of them being atheists. You have no idea what you are advertising with that graphic even after you have been told. You have also been told that you do not have permission to use it. You have been asked to rethink your use of it. You have stole it.
Too bad that you don't understand that this is just not cool. How sad.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Was there any loss of income associated with that?
Coincidentally, I am an atheist. It's really felt like the first few posts on this subthread were trying to yank my chain because I don't fit the atheist nomiker.
No, I did't know it had anything to do with athiests, but since it's part of my belief/non belief system, it seems to fit with the vermin control, the pest control, the fly swatter, the bug zapper, and now the atheism.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yep.... Hilary supporter. It all about money!
And you still don't get it! I used to design logos, and it isn't easy. But declare you're an atheist Vermin for Hillary!...I mean if that's what you are...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)this country, not OBL. So it's not NEWS except to ignorant morons on the Right. Bernie was absolutely right
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Response to MaggieD (Reply #10)
Name removed Message auto-removed
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to this country. But someone outed the Pentagon Report which had Climate Change at the top of the list which made Bush look bad!
No OBL, Climate Change, which Repubs were denying, Bush exposed as a liar.
Were you around here back then?
Funniest comment in this thread. I can't figure out what it is supposed to mean??
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.
The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents."
Any major European cities sinking beneath the rising sea yet? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that radical extremists/ISIL are the most pressing threat right now. Do you think Bernie minds if we prioritize that over climate change from a security perspective?
Now you can make all the excuses for him that you want, but I think most voters are going to see extremist radicals as a bigger threat at the present time. I don't mind that he sounds like he is oblivious to that, but it does tend to indicate he is not living in the real world right now.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)for this country. And that's what should matter.
elleng
(131,042 posts)Republicans Are Upset That Martin O'Malley Cited Actual Science On Climate Change And Conflict
The candidate links climate change to Syrian conflict. Republicans deem it "absurd."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omalley-climate-change-syria_55ae7ed0e4b07af29d56793c
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/9/10/martin_omalley_climate_change_helped_spark
The Link Between Climate Change And ISIS Is Real.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/07/23/3683536/omalley-climate-change-isis/
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I think most of us can agree that the devastation that will occur due to climate change will exacerbate terrorism due to fighting over resources. Unless you're a climate change denier the link seems pretty clear. But he didn't just say they were linked.
Bernie was mocked for calling it the largest security issue we face. And then he doubled down on that the day after the Paris attacks. That just made him look like he was clueless about the very current and pressing issues we face from ISIL and radical extremists.
Don't blame other people for the stuff that comes out of Bernie's mouth. He is terrible at messaging unless it's the one issue in his comfort zone - income inequality. Dude is just not ready for primetime on a host of issues a president faces.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)tried to use it to mock him only to have their tiny sneers wiped of their faces.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)seafan
(9,387 posts)via Think Progress
What kind of security will Americans have if the Paris climate talks fail and we turn much of the U.S., Mexico and Central America into a near-permanent Dust Bowl, as NASA warned in February?
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Since the overwhelming majority of pundits and policymakers dont understand the existential threat climate change poses, Sanders remarks were criticized, much as fellow presidential candidate Martin OMalleys were back in July. Yet for over three years, leading security and climate experts and Syrians themselves have made the connection between climate change and the Syrian civil war. Indeed, when a major peer-reviewed study came out on in March making this very case, Retired Navy Rear Admiral David Titley said it identifies a pretty convincing climate fingerprint for the Syrian drought.
Titley, a meteorologist who led the U.S. Navys Task Force on Climate Change when he was at the Pentagon, also said, you can draw a very credible climate connection to this disaster we call ISIS right now.
The study, Climate change in the Fertile Crescent and implications of the recent Syrian drought, found that global warming made Syrias 2006 to 2010 drought two to three times more likely.
While were not saying the drought caused the war, lead author Colin Kelley explained. We are saying that it certainly contributed to other factors agricultural collapse and mass migration among them that caused the uprising.
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Events leading up to 2011 Syrian uprising, with chart of net migration of displaced Syrians and Iraqi refugees into urban areas (in millions) since 2005. Source: Kelley et al. (2015)
When you have drought, when people cant grow their crops, theyre going to migrate into cities, and when people migrate into cities and they dont have jobs, theres going to be a lot more instability, a lot more unemployment and people will be subject to the types of propaganda that al-Qaeda and ISIS are using right now, Sanders said. So where you have discontent, where you have instability, thats where problems arise, and certainly, without a doubt, climate change will lead to that.
In the case of Syria, it was what one expert called perhaps the worst long-term drought and most severe set of crop failures since agricultural civilizations began in the Fertile Crescent. It destroyed the livelihoods of 800,000 people and sent vastly more into poverty. The poor and displaced fled to cities, where poverty, government mismanagement and other factors created unrest that exploded in spring 2011, the studys news release explains.
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Dust-Bowlification and the threat to our food supplies and hence global security are the greatest dangers to humanity this century from human-caused climate change.
Thats because large parts of the most inhabited and arable parts of the planet including the U.S. breadbasket face the exact same heating and drying that have already affected the Mediterranean. A 2014 study projected this bleak future:
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MotherJones, November 14, 2015:
Washington Post, "Bernie Sanders explains connection between climate change and Paris attacks", November 15, 2015
If we are going to see an increase in drought, flood and extreme weather disturbances as a result of climate change, what that means is that people all over the world are going to be fighting over limited natural resources, Sanders said. If there is not enough water, if there is not enough land to grow your crops, then youre going to see migrations of people fighting over land that will sustain them, and that will lead to international conflicts.
But how does drought connect with attacks by [the Islamic State] in the middle of Paris? Dickerson asked.
When you have drought, when people cant grow their crops, theyre going to migrate into cities, and when people migrate into cities and they dont have jobs, theres going to be a lot more instability, a lot more unemployment and people will be subject to the types of propaganda that al-Qaeda and ISIS are using right now, Sanders said, using an alternative name for the Islamic State. So where you have discontent, where you have instability, thats where problems arise, and certainly, without a doubt, climate change will lead to that.
From the National Academy of Sciences, in 2015:
Significance
There is evidence that the 2007?2010 drought contributed to the conflict in Syria. It was the worst drought in the instrumental record, causing widespread crop failure and a mass migration of farming families to urban centers. Century-long observed trends in precipitation, temperature, and sea-level pressure, supported by climate model results, strongly suggest that anthropogenic forcing has increased the probability of severe and persistent droughts in this region, and made the occurrence of a 3-year drought as severe as that of 2007?2010 2 to 3 times more likely than by natural variability alone. We conclude that human influences on the climate system are implicated in the current Syrian conflict.
Media Matters:
Center for Naval Analyses: Climate Change Serves As "Catalyst For Conflict."
The Center for Naval Analyses (CNA) -- a government-funded military research organization -- published a report in May 2014 on how the accelerating risks of climate change will impact national security. The New York Times summarized the report's findings:
The CNA Corporation Military Advisory Board found that climate change-induced drought in the Middle East and Africa is leading to conflicts over food and water and escalating longstanding regional and ethnic tensions into violent clashes. The report also found that rising sea levels are putting people and food supplies in vulnerable coastal regions like eastern India, Bangladesh and the Mekong Delta in Vietnam at risk and could lead to a new wave of refugees. In addition, the report predicted that an increase in catastrophic weather events around the world will create more demand for American troops, even as flooding and extreme weather events at home could damage naval ports and military bases. (Center for Naval Analyses: National Security and the Accelerating Risks of Climate Change, May 2014; The New York Times, 5/13/14)
Media Matters", November 16, 2015:
Ignoring The Facts, Conservative Media Call Bernie Sanders "Crazy" For Linking Climate Change To Terrorism
Conveniently, names and comments are listed there, so as not to lose track of the real daffies.
Thank you, Senator Sanders, for fearlessly connecting so many dots for us in this crucial discussion of the ramifications of climate change on national security and as the major catalyst for instability and terrorism across the world.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Some people don't seem to get the connection, but then some will never understand science.
elleng
(131,042 posts)Republicans Are Upset That Martin O'Malley Cited Actual Science On Climate Change And Conflict
The candidate links climate change to Syrian conflict. Republicans deem it "absurd."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/omalley-climate-change-syria_55ae7ed0e4b07af29d56793c
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/9/10/martin_omalley_climate_change_helped_spark
The Link Between Climate Change And ISIS Is Real.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/07/23/3683536/omalley-climate-change-isis/
FSogol
(45,514 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Alanis Obamsawin, paraphrased:
"When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, They Will Finally Realize That They Cannot Eat Money".
seafan
(9,387 posts)Climate Hawks Vote measures leadership, not just voting records, tabulating actions like bills introduced, speeches given, and so forth. In the 112th Congress, Sanders ranked third behind Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) and Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.). In the last Congress, he edged out Whitehouse by one point.
"Sanders is very much among the top leaders," says R.L. Miller, founder of Climate Hawks Vote. "He has a record of really strong advocacy for solar in particular." Miller notes that distributed solar, which enables everyone with a solar panel to create their own energy instead of relying on a monopolistic utility company, fits especially well with Sanders' democratic socialist philosophy. It's bad for corporations and good for regular folks who get to own the means of production.
Here are some of the highlights from Sanders' climate and clean energy record:
In 2013, along with Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), Sanders introduced the Climate Protection Act, a fee-and-dividend bill. It would tax carbon and methane emissions and rebate three-fifths of the revenue to citizens, then invest the remainder in energy efficiency, clean energy, and climate resiliency. The bill, of course, went nowhere (even if it had advanced in the Democratic-controlled Senate, it would have been DOA in the Republican-controlled House), but it shows that Sanders supports serious solutions and wants to keep the conversation going.
Also in 2013, Sanders introduced the Residential Energy Savings Act to fund financing programs that would help residents retrofit their homes for energy efficiency. This bill didn't become law either.
In 2012, Sanders introduced the End Polluter Welfare Act, to get rid of special tax deductions and credits for coal, oil, and gas producers. As he wrote in Grist at the time, "It is immoral that some in Congress advocate savage cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security while those same people vote to preserve billions in tax breaks for ExxonMobil, the most profitable corporation in America." The bill didn't pass.
In 2010, Sanders authored a bill to spread distributed solar throughout the country, the very literally named "10 Million Solar Roofs & 10 Million Gallons of Solar Hot Water Act." As Grist's David Roberts explained, it would "provide rebates that cover up to half the cost of new systems, along the lines of incentive programs in California and New Jersey." The bill didn't pass.
In 2007, he cowrote with then-Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) the Green Jobs Act, which allocated funding for clean energy and energy efficiency research and job training. This did pass, as part of a big 2007 energy bill.
Also in 2007, with Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), he cosponsored the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant Program, to help states and local governments pay for efficiency and clean energy programs. It was also passed as part of the 2007 energy bill, and both the block grant program and the green jobs program got a funding infusion from the 2009 stimulus package.
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Thank you for your undaunted leadership, Senator Sanders.