if they disagree with any minor interpretation. One thread, for example, even insisted that Hillary's saying Bernie prioritized economic matters was a "lie." The charge was patently absurd because he clearly does, but even if that voter has no concept what he's voting for, it is at best a difference of opinion. Did those attacks come from the cave too? Or do you simply think a small percentage of Americans so superior they can do and say anything they want and never face responses in kind?

Or, at least, that's what I've seen repeatedly around here and even as an OP I believe.

It's just ridiculous. They've made her into the ultimate boogeyman that's responsible for every wrong in the world.

And Bernie knows the difference between universal and single payer. I linked to his press release lying about Clinton. I did not make it up. He is lying and he knows it.

He is just hoping his supporters are uninformed enough not to know he is lying. There is a reason the press did not snap up that press release and repeat any of his claims. They know he is lying too.

I am very disappointed in Bernie. I don't agree with his proposals, but I did not think of him as a liar until I saw this.

Oh well.

to bring about single payer? If he couldn't influence a Democratic majority at that time, why should we believe he can magically produce single payer under a GOP majority in one or both houses?
Bernie makes promises that he has no capacity to deliver on, and it astounds me that people can't see that. I could create a wish of what I would like to see too, and it wouldn't matter because the ONLY thing that matters is what can become law. The rest is just empty talk, pandering.

ByEvan McMorris-SantoroPublishedMarch 10, 2010, 7:26 PM EST

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) reminded the progressive media gathered on Capitol Hill today that single-payer health care reform was dead before it started in the Senate.

"It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that's it," he said, addressing a topic central in the minds of many who the bloggers and left wing talk show hosts gathered for the 4th annual Senate Democratic Progressive Media Summit in Washington reach everyday.

snip

"The major error Democrats undertook was to assume we had 60 votes or even 59," he said. "We never had that."

Sanders said he thinks Democrats have 50 votes in the Senate to pass a bill "certainly to include a public option." It was a bit of good news for progressives, who have turned their attention to using reconciliation in the Senate to bolster a reform bill with the addition of a public option.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance














But now all we have to do is elect him and we have it?
Jesus.

You should make than an OP, Sheshe.

that one candidate "wants" it and another doesn't is incredible. It is impossible for me to believe people care about seeing single payer implemented when they don't give a moment's through to how that could transpire, and how their candidate intends to deliver on something he declared dead in the water in 2010, when we have a Democratic majority in both houses. It's as though the promises and rhetoric matter more than the people who need healthcare. If all they want is someone who promises them the moon, that's the easiest lift in politics. Anyone can do that.

Were they?!

No one, and I mean, no one is getting single payer anywhere near reality for at least 2 more decades. Anyone voting for Bernie in hopes this will get accomplished be prepared to call him a POSUCS.

He can't be a POSUCS because he's a "progressive." He can support any conservative policy--whether on guns or immigration--and it's okay because he's "progressive."

People give up.

a system where most people are at the mercy of their employers or their bank accounts or both for access to healthcare, many people remain uncovered (the 'universal' part) and instead of an actual universal healthcare system she means "Bob Dole's alternative to universal healthcare that is basically a funnel from public funds to private pockets".

and you all cast her as a villain because your prefer a theoretical system that covers zero people to an imperfect system that covers millions.

If Bernie was going to give us single payer, why didn't he do something about it when he was part of a Democratic majority in the Senate? How on God's earth does making him president accomplish that, when the congress is controlled by the GOP?

That question is of course irrelevant because this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with reality or the lives of real human beings. It's that you all insist on being pandered to even though rationally you have to see its a completely empty promise.

although it was more universal that the crap that both Obama and Clinton were proposing in 2008. The thirdway corporate democratic establishment is not interested in actual universal healthcare as that would cut out the insurance industry and reign in the pharma industry and that is not in the interests of the corporate democratic establishment. Clinton is part of that establishment. She and her husband are both firmly in the center right tradition of the DLC. So you all can pretend to be offended and play word games around what "universal healthcare" means, but that won't change the facts that you are backing the center right establishment candidate and we will get center right corporate friendly half-assed reforms at best, if she manages to win the general election.

and has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of single payer, which SANDERS himself declared dead in the water in 2010. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=842222

People like me.
The difference between people like you and me has manifested itself throughout human history.

people like you believe "good enough is good enough".
People like you talk about "compromise" and "real world solutions" never admitting that a real compromise is only achieved by parties on equal footing otherwise, for one side our the other, it is not a "compromise" but one side or the being "compromised".
While your candidate may well achieve some flavor of her varies proposals and agenda items, what she will have to concede to get even a shadow of it will continue to cause very real pain points for very real people for years.

My broader point? I would rather have my candidate make intelligent, comprehensive proposals, that help everyone and concede nothing and fail because of a hateful, short-sighted, teapublican Congress than pass any half-ass agenda that that leaves its citizens "compromised" some other way.
I cannot say with 100% confidence that even Bernie its that candidate but I know, for a fact, that your candidate is not ($12 an hour and not $15 as an example).

I would rather die trying on my feet, then spend a lifetime begging on my knees

Is that I care about the lives of actual human beings who can be helped by government rather than placing blind faith in a politician who makes claims he knows are impossible. This is Sanders in 2010 on single payer. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=842222
He declared it dead before it started at that point. Yet now suddenly all we have to do is elect him and we'll have it. That reveals more than niavity.

I would certainly prefer intelligent, comprehensive proposals, and of the three remaining candidates Sanders least rises to that criteria. The other two provide extensive policy proposals on their website. Sanders provides the least, and instead of policy statements refers to showboat legislation that he introduced at taxpayer expense for the benefit of promoting his campaign. That is legislation that in most cases has not even had a committee hearing and won't.

If voting were simply a matter of choosing a wishlist of policies, it would be easy. No thought would be required. But that doesn't happen. A candidate who in thirty years in congress has gotten only one major piece of legislation through now promises the world, and you buy into it. I am not nearly so gullible. I want a president who can actually accomplish things, and Sanders has done less that virtually anyone else who has served as long as congress as he has.

You don't even address the question of how he can deliver on single payer. It would seem that question is irrelevant to you, that you are far more interested in being placated that actual policy or governing. So yes, absolutely that is the major difference. I would love to see single payer, but I'm not stupid enough to believe it all just so coincidentally hinges on one man's political fortunes, a man who declared it dead in the water during a Democratic majority. You want someone who promises you the moon. Bully for you. That means absolutely nothing to me because those promises are worthless.

What did you do to press the issue of single payer during the negotiations of the ACA bill? Anything? We already see Sanders did not, and that doesn't concern you in the slightest.

I actually care about people that need help getting it. These pie in the sky proposals don't achieve anything but a case of the warm fuzzies brought on by congratulating ourselves on our "liberal values."

First, I never, not once, typed anything in this post or any post I have ever typed, about Brenie's ability to be more or less successful than your candidate in getting policies and agenda items passed Congress.
I did say in my post, your candidate may well get some flavor of it passed, the point is at what cost on the back end.
When your starting point is already not single payer, already not $15 an hour, already not Glass-Steagall, and will then have to compromise in some way that is a compromise not in your favor, the outcome will still go in "win" column for her, I did this thing, while at the same time cutting benefits somewhere else in the Social Safety Net, is not a win to the person it will impact.
I, for one, am tired of being "compromised". You stated: "Is that I care about the lives of actual human beings who can be helped by government " So. Do. I. But first, do no harm
So, if she wins, I am sure you will cheer the passage of some flavor of an agenda item but disregard that it came art the cost of a million less people being covered by MediCare (generic example)
I would rather die trying on my feet, than spend a lifetime begging on my knees.

It will be a constant stream of government shutdowns and debt limit battles because Republicans have spent 20 years telling their base Clinton is Satan incarnate.

So, pray tell, how does Clinton actually "deliver" on anything? She'll have to sign bill after bill screwing us over (aka "Compromising&quot just to keep the government running.

relationships with congressmen and senators in her own party, ensuring them that she will consult with them in ways Obama hasn't. We see she has an unprecedented number of congressional endorsements.
She also has a track record of working across the isle as Senator.

Sanders doesn't have good relationships with Republicans or Democrats. If you think they Republicans are going to be any more positive toward him than Clinton, you are being honest with yourself. The fact he calls himself socialist is enough for them. Nevermind he isn't a socialist and doesn't even know the difference between democratic socialists and social democrats. That he calls himself one makes him dead in the water. A grade schooler could write those campaign ads. There will never be a President Sanders. There will be a President Clinton or a President GOP (fill in the blank). If Clinton falters, the party will have Biden step in to win the remaining delegates. Sanders own wife has said he isn't running to win.

Now, you have evidence in this and the other thread that he doesn't actually believe single payer is a possibility, yet he is campaigning on it anyway. That should cause you some concern. You have been had.

And we will not be retaking the House until 2022 at the earliest. Especially when the top of our ticket is going to have to keep hurting our party just to "keep the lights on".

Wish I was that articulate.

ALWAYS. Universal healthcare and single payer are NOT the same thing. How does it feel to be fooled by your hero?

was a MANDATE for every American to BUY Health Insurance from a private, For Profit Corporations.

In the debates, Obama shamed and ridiculed Hillary for her plan.
He was emphatic that a MANDATE would not work, saying "All we had to do to end homelessness was to MANDATE that every American buy a house!
Problem solved." He directly attacked Hillary for including NO Public Option, stating that a Public Option was absolutely necessary to keep the Insurance Vultures honest.

Ultimately, he ditched the Public Option, and passed Hillary's Plan.
(I wonder if Hillary was pissed when she realized that Obama has conned her, and stole her Health Care Plan.)

Personally. I now believe all the controversy between Obama & Hillary was manufactured or Kabuki Theater. They were well coordinated.
With his Buddy Deals for Wall Street, no help for Main Street, more and Expanded WARS in the Middle East. Constant bombing of brown people in the ME.
Coziness with lobbyists, and an obstructionist to Single Payer...or even the Public Option
once he got elected, and extending Tax Breaks for Millionaires.
A real Trojan Horse, and the last time I will vote for someone with an unknown Track Record, but makes a good speech.
Most Carnival Cons can do that too.
SEE: Bill Clinton



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Promises.

If that isn't mandated nothing is. Taxes = money you have to pay.

people will save money because they won't be paying huge copays to greedy insurance companies, profit mills,---er, treatment centers, and even greedier pharms.

oh, and the socialist bogeyman is dead. just figured i would save you a little typing

because you don't sound like one.

from Mitt Romney. Attempts to push Republican talking points and Republican core philosophy is appearing on this forum quite regularly.

they are democrats.no way.

Higher taxes? Socialist countries have higher tax rates. Bernie's proposals will require more taxes. How much? Who knows. BTW I am a life long Democrat.

fine with me.It is just a question of if you care about others.

One right-wing talking point goes down the drain!

That hasn't even so much as put a band aid on anything. I'd rather pay the tax.

Private Health Ins. Premiums = money you have to pay
Doctor's Visit Co-pay = money you have to pay
Prescription Cost = money you have to pay
Annual Deductible = money you have to pay

Personally, I don't have to worry about the last 3 because I don't have any money to do number 1 and live in a GOP controlled state.

Side note: Read a post last night from another HRC supporter that they don't want their taxes to pay for health care for "abled bodied people that just don't want to work". That HRC supporter cared nothing about the seniors, disabled and children that are also going with out due to this selfish attitude.

who work but still don't make enough money to afford health insurance.

Very disappointed in him for this humongous lie.

or some variation there off 100+ times in this flame bait OP.

I'll buy you a bag of circus peanuts.

And it is objectively true that he IS lying. Why is that flamebait? I have already seen two OPs on DU lying about Hillary because they uncritically accept this lie from Bernie. Those don't seem to bother you. How come?

Let's get it over with. "Lie. Lied. Lies. Lair." There! (An extra one for good measure.)

"Lair"
ler/
noun
a wild animal's resting place, especially one that is well hidden.
synonyms: den, burrow, hole, tunnel, cave
"the lair of a large python"
a secret or private place in which a person seeks concealment or seclusion.
synonyms: hideout, hiding place, hideaway, refuge, sanctuary, haven, shelter, retreat

Bzzzzt. But thanks for playing.

Yikes almost 100 posts in 24 hours!

You are an inspiration!

Seriously now, how long does it take to type "+1" and "K&R" if someone types 65 words per minute?

I was a moderator for 3 years. And still I have a low post count.

Most of my 16k posts went something like "agreed" "wsc".

Somehow life afk is a tad more appealing at least to me.

Bernie is right to oppose it.

Bernie isn't opposing universal healthcare. He is pretending universal healthcare and single payer are the same thing. They aren't. And he knows that. He is simply lying when he says Clinton doesn't support universal healthcare.

I notice you didn't actually quote the lie.

would still be tens of thousands of different companies and offices processing claims on different forms with different standards and different training, different emphasies.

Talk about the opposite of the LEAN process improvement - no admin savings, no economies of scale, no cutting of waste, not cutting of wait-times, no standardization of fees or costs.

The current set-up and processes are the EXACT opposite of every best known practice for any other process or service in business today.

On in-line polls. Or something

I am so happy your life is just wonderful Mr Rockefeller?. Most peoples aren't.

This is nothing like Sander's solution. So as usual it's you that's lying.

Which is why she convinced congress to pass SCHIP when she was First Lady. She has done far more for healthcare than any candidate running, including paving the way for 20 million people to have healthcare that did not.

If he wanted to be honest he could have said she doesn't support single payer. But he didn't because he's vested in bullshitting people about her AND he knows most of the public doesn't support single payer either.

"he's vested in bullshitting people about her..."

May I suggest you delete this post?

BTW, NEARLY 80% OF DEMOCRATS SUPPORT SINGLE PAYER HEALTHCARE, BERNIE SANDER'S CHOICE.

He's running for president of the United States. And he knows damn well he is attacking her for not promising something he admits can't pass.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251842615

It will assure you that the majority do support it. Your logic is all messed up on placing so much importance on what you think, and then pulling some silly putty out of your logic rabbit hat to spout, "He's not running for president of the Dem party"! REALLY? Now, it doesn't matter what the majority of Democrats want?

WOW!

You're not getting anywhere when 50% of the public supports it BEFORE they learn about costs. And zero elected officials in congress support it. And the USSC barely allowed the ACA. It ain't happening and Bernie knows it.

Why doesn't it bother you that he's pretending otherwise?

Bernie Sanders has never "pretended" anything of the sort on these issues. The provision of single payer healthcare as a right of citizens is that the American people have supported for many years, which is why I provided the reference to you. It's something that other countries have followed (Canada and the UK for closer examples). The concept of what it costs to provide it has been proven over and over. The version Sanders and others have supported is a solution to an out of control system.

I work in that system. I have for over 40 years. We are spending over 17% of our GDP on providing a crumbling solution. No matter what Hillary Clinton has said (and she has presented the earliest of ideas on how we should have moved away from this system, no doubt, starting as First Lady), her ideas have not made a clear cut away from what is running up unsustainable costs for too many caught up in the donut hole of private insurance. What she offers is not as good a solution.

You keep seeing it as lies. I keep seeing it as a better solution. The better solution should stand, and the person who understands how to keep true to that is Bernie Sanders. Try not to take this as hate. It's a choice of what is better for Americans, and it's about damned time we realized that and many other truths.

One more thing... If you've stopped learning anything because you "don't need to", then good luck. It means you stopped thinking.

And worse yet he's a attacking her for not shining on voters like he's doing.

Well THIS seems to support it just fine...

And he is attacking her for not promising something he knows damn well won't pass.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251842615

Neither you or that poster seem to take the time to do honest homework on this matter. You really should...

Here.. I'll help you out...

So when Bernie pops a whopper it's okay?

You know... You link you provided that is there to provide your "proof" somehow of some kind of lies, and it's nothing of the sort. So, I call that nonsense.

He's being misquoted here? Is that what you're arguing?

ByEvan McMorris-SantoroPublishedMarch 10, 2010, 7:26 PM EST

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) reminded the progressive media gathered on Capitol Hill today that single-payer health care reform was dead before it started in the Senate.

"It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that's it," he said, addressing a topic central in the minds of many who the bloggers and left wing talk show hosts gathered for the 4th annual Senate Democratic Progressive Media Summit in Washington reach everyday.

snip

"The major error Democrats undertook was to assume we had 60 votes or even 59," he said. "We never had that."

Sanders said he thinks Democrats have 50 votes in the Senate to pass a bill "certainly to include a public option." It was a bit of good news for progressives, who have turned their attention to using reconciliation in the Senate to bolster a reform bill with the addition of a public option.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance

Talking Points Memo discussions over 5 years ago when the Congress argued about changing to single payer was not the "nonsense". The nonsense was the point the OP was trying to make.

There IS no argument that this legislation had no support in 2010, but there's an argument that Bernie Sanders and Hillary's version of health reform is the same. It is not the same. To think HRC's answer is Bernie's and that she's wanted the same thing is not comparing apples to apples.

Meanwhile, true single payer systems will address the concerns of the majority of people who pay into these systems and go bankrupt or HAVE no insurance want to get OUT of what we have today. Truth is, the give-away to the insurance companies came with a vengeance. One reason - non-negotiated health insurance, which has done nothing for the health of Americans.

The president never let the SP or Medicare For All or whatever you want to call healthcare without death merchants be part of the discussion. No one tried, ever. When you say that "we" did, you are telling a lie.

And do you not realize Bernie's bill has zero cosponsors?

the rest is a fantasy some like to hide behind.

Hey!!! Just came to be nice since I know that is a trait that is sadly lacking.

Nice to see you!

Seems like his plan is to promise stuff he can't deliver, then blame Hillary if she doesn't go along with pretending.

but whatever helps you sleep before getting ready to vote for a conservative

Sorry. I just had to do that.