Why would it not be politics to talk about the divide between "christians" and "mormons". Christians believe in using govt to write their beliefs into law -- that's what "personhood" is all about, a "god-given-soul in every fertilized egg". The Roman guy who is blessing the Dem Convention is a member of three organized crime gangs containing 151 know pedophile members (you can't even find three NAMBLA chapters with as many pedophiles) -- AND HE IS SUING OBAMA for religious persecution. These are political issues, not religious issues. Once it gets into govt regulations, and writing laws, it's NOT RELIGION, and we need to understand what they believe, where they are coming from.

If you want it posted in RELIGION, cut and paste and post it there. I'm here to talk about the POLITICS of religion, not the theology.

I do not believe the christians have discussed who they are giving the keys to the nuclear missile codes to. Mormons believe that Satan is Jesus' co-equal brother, and every man-jack of you is co-equal to Jesus and Satan in essence.

What is the implications to electing somebody who does not perceive satan as bad, nor believe lying makes you a son of satan? What kind of christian can vote for that deal? Mormons lie because their religion tells them too -- no wonder the RMoney-rAyn ticket lies without guilt or remorse.

I think it is important enough to increase its exposure

I would enjoy any highly knowledgeable religious scholars opinions, but the thrust of this thread is questioning the politics of christian-mormon alliances when they are opposed in beliefs so powerfully.

If we make this an issue, it would be playing directly into the Republicans' hand.

I could live with the crazy Sharron Angle in the Senate and somebody else as Senate Leader, a lot better than I can live with the damages Harry Reid did to America this past two years. If it didn't take a supermajority of 60% votes to elect Reid it shouldn't take 60% votes to pass a law. There's no excuses for a "hold" where one man outvotes 99 others. The senate is elected by majority 50% plus one, and that's the way it should be run. What motivates a man who sets the rules for his "elect" different from everybody else? Would Reid even oppose policy of a fellow Mormon? Is Reid more Mormon than democrat, more Mormon than American? The RMoney family renounced America to move to Mexico, because being Mormon was more important than being American. We haven't discussed this. Do mormons lie with impunity? Can we trust them? What is their code? What is their honor? Have any prominent mormons condemned RMoney's lies as "ANTI-MORMON"? Have any mormons condemned RMoney's predatory capitalism as "ANTI-MORMON", or are all Mormons like RMoney, waiting to find your vulnerability and then vampiring you? I want them to answer, including Harry Reid.

have 51 Senators (or 50 and the Presidency), it will be gone faster than you can say "MotherFu*%ers!!!!!"

The word "FILIBUSTER" on the day that it was used first in the Senate, was a previously defined word which meant "A PAID PRIVATE SOLDIER IN A RICH PATRON'S ARMY". That is "corporate armed mercenary" in today's language.

There was a two-year period where the repugs exposed their policy to filibuster everything. Harry Reid knew what was happening, and he knew that his "60" majority included DINOs and Koch-stealth operatives. Yet Reid fought off an effort to lighten the filibuster last chance he had to change the rules. In fact, Reid served the repugs on that and defeated everything this session by his acts.

Thus, nothing was going to go through as the House, controlled by the R's, would block anything passed by simple majority in the Senate. My only thought as to why the filibuster was kept is to try and have an argument as to why it should stay if the R's win the Senate in 2012, which is a good possibility.

Should the filibuster in it's present form have been instituted to begin with? I don't believe so, but that is water under the bridge at this point.

point on appointments though.

Most Christians want to claim they are real Christians but I think Christianity is such an ancient religion with so many dated laws that people pick and choose from that you could make the argument that there is no such thing as a real Christian. If people disagree with that and want to call themselves Christian that is fine by me, but if we sit and judge which people are or are not Christians we are unlikely to find anyone who lives their life according to the Bible as a whole.

...labeled as such?

If a belief in Jesus as one's savior or god is enough, then Mormon's are Christians. If one has to believe only what is said in the old and new Testament and nothing else, then they are not. Some would say that if one doesn't engage in certain rituals and/or does engage in certain rituals (like Baptism or taking communion), one is or is not a Christian--and Mormons sit on both sides of that tricky fence. And still others will say that if one calls oneself a Christian, then one is--in which case, the Mormons are. And, finally, there are those who will say that so long as you "act" like a Christian (good Samaritan for example) you are one even if you don't believe in Christ. Which makes the issue an individual one. Whether a Mormon is a Christian depends on how he/she acts.

Which is all to say, sorry, but no, it's not a legitimate subject. Why not? Because no one can define for you and everyone else what constitutes a Christian and what does not. That the drawback of religion. Science is pretty good at defining what is what. Have these characteristics and one is a human being, have others and one is not, for example. But religion is fluid and sticky and always arguable.

Give us a definition you want us to go by and we can give you an answer. Otherwise, every yes/no answer you get here will tell you more about the person responding--what they think about Christianity--then about Mormons and Christianity.

If I call myself christian, I know what I am and what that means. I am under no obligation to define for you -- you need to know who you are and what you believe. Is mormon close to that? Is it really similar, that Jesus and Satan are brothers, both created and essentially the same kind of being that you are -- is that your definition of CHRISTIAN? Why not call yourself as SATANIST, brother of Satan, co-equal to Jesus? Why use the term "Christian" at all, as in "Christianity" or in "Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"?

Do I want to give the keys to nuclear strikes to a guy who is Satan's brother? This is a political question, not a religious one. What you believe matters.

...or believe that it's legitimate and matters. If you want to define Christianity for yourself and answer the question for yourself then why are you posting? To talk to yourself?

You opened up this conversation. Now give us a definition and we'll either agree with you that Mormons are Christian or we won't. If all you want is for us to agree with you rather than actually discuss the topic, then you're on the wrong forum.

And this: "Do I want to give the key to a guy who is Satan's brother?" What does the fact that the religion has Lucifer as Jesus' brother have to do with whether any Mormon should or should not be elected President? I thought the topic was whether they could be defined as Christians, not whether they were presidential material. Or are you saying that you only ever want a Christian as president? Because there are a lot of people out there with beliefs very different than yours--ones that really aren't Christian. Are you saying you'd never vote for a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist as president?

Asking a crowd implies that there might be a coonsensus answer, but does not guarantee it. In either case, I use my freedom of speech to ask a question that YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER.

Is that the YES and NO you mean?

That's the Yes and No that I mean.

gurus who give Jesus special status but don't exactly worship him as one with God.

I'm probably not the best one to opine about this as I am religiously agnostic.

Lucifer to be JC's brother? (I could be wrong but, in this context, I assume that there is the belief that Lucifer and JC are half-brothers).

Mormons themselves freely admit that they are not Christians in any traditional sense, but they do come from Judeo-Christian traditions.

One I heard saying they are to Christians as Christians are to Jews.

They kept the Bible and talk a lot about "Jesus Christ", but that doesn't make them "christians" in the sense that Mike Huckabee says. In fact they are not derived from christianity -- they are derived 100% from Joseph Smith and his immediate posse.

The reason there are so many videos posted is to show the great range of differences that various video composers have pointed out. It's no longer important what they say once they have loosed themselves from the social constraints of "lying". When lying is no longer a sin, not any longer one of the central commandments, no longer an automatic indicator one is son-of-satan (the Father of Lies Doctrine), anything that they say is untrustworthy to a christian voter, so what they believe DOES MATTER POLITICALLY.

If being mormon is not important to one's worldview, why even bother to be one? The same goes for christian, why bother?

Both Mormonism and traditional forms of Christianity (be they Catholicism, one of the Protestant denominations, or other groups) are based on fairy tales and superstitious nonsense.

Why argue over which imaginary sky friend has the biggest dick?

The "govt" can't make a religious test, but certain religions require their members to. Both mormons and christians make religious tests fundamental to their decision process.

We have always had a "christian" president (except many protestants do not count catholics as christians",re:JFK) and this has been a test for candidacy credibility. We have never had a candidate who says out loud "I believe that Jesus and Satan are co-equal brothers created in the same way out of the same essential "stuff".

There are a lot of unasked questions, let alone unanswered questions, in that dilemma. If I give the keys to the nuclear launch codes to a brother of Satan, is it going to have a good outcome? Why isn't this an election-year legitimate question? Obama's rev Wright and his muslim madrassas have been talked for 4-years, and BROTHER-OF-SATAN is now offlimits?

that sounds far too like you saying the US should have a Christian president.

Are you saying that Mormons claim that all humans are "brothers of Satan"? That seems to be what "If I give the keys to the nuclear launch codes to a brother of Satan" says. If so, then "brothers of Satan" have had, according to Mormons, the nuclear launch codes since 1945 - there would be no change. The point of the Mormon belief is that Jesus was/is the "brother of Satan", but was/is good. Philosophically, I can't see this as any worse than believing that gods exist. It's just a different myth.

Romney has religious beliefs, which aren't really any more absurd than those of a mainline Christian church. Why anyone felt the need to convert to Mormonism, I don't know, but people have, and then they have, like most religious people, told their children to believe the same stuff. I can't blame Romney for the basic "I am a Mormon" stuff than I blame Joe Biden for his Catholicism - and I blame Obama a bit more for his beliefs, because his mother did not drum them into him. The problem with Romney's Mormon beliefs is he goes along with the homophobic and misogynistic bits of it - while Obama's opinions in those areas are far, far better.

If you want to imitate what the Republicans did 4 years ago with Wright and madrassas, then you're climbing into their sewer. Why the hell would you want to do that? Stick to the areas of the religion that are part of reality - eg their regarding women and LGBT people as second class (or worse).

I personally think a person's religious beliefs should be examined in an election because people do justify their policies based on religion and if their religion is going to influence their policy then voters have a right to take that into consideration when they cast a ballot. Most people are not forced to follow a certain religion and their beliefs on religion should be treated the same as their beliefs on anything else. I really don't care what religion someone identifies as, but the moment they give me any sort of suggestion that their religion is going to guide their policy then I will take that into consideration at the ballot box.

This is not a Consitutional issue, unless he government itself judges on the basis of religion there is no religious test in the Constitutional sense. Voters can vote on religion and ask questions about religion without violating the Constitution.

I can impose any test I want on who gets my vote, and the same is true for anyone else.

You are confusing a Constitutional requirement with some kind of odd personal directive.

This is the same sort of logic which considers the court's presumption in criminal cases - "presumed innocent until proven guilty" - to be some kind of rule that prevents me from thinking that the guy I caught stealing my stuff was, in fact, stealing my stuff.

mentioning religion with this "irrelevant" bullshit? We get it-- you don't like religion, but we don't need to be reminded every hour.

(Actually, I think you missed a thread yesterday-- if you're going to troll threads, do it right)

Life is not ALL ABOUT YOU. Get used to it. YOU JOINED THIS THREAD VOLUNTARILY when you could have skipped over it merrily on your way.

consider it my mission to piss on others who also could have passed by the thread without dropping a turd in it.

(My other snarky, insulting, and most likely annoying contribution to the thread at least had a glimmer of relevance and information in it.)

Do you seriously think the Mormons who want to see one of their own in the WH are going to study the party platforms before pulling the lever? Do you honestly think that the deeply religious voters are not going to take religion into account when they choose the candidate for whom they will vote?

The question is NOT irrelevant. The question--like it or not--will play a role in how many people vote.

This isn't about "the biggest (imaginary) dick." Your simplistic dismissal of the forces of reality--that reality being the opinions of people who are NOT imaginary, and who do vote--is what this conversation is about.

And for a simple reason: the Book of Mormon.

Christians and Jews share a common Bible in the Old Testament; but Christians set themselves apart with the New Testament.

Muslims also share a Judeo/Christian heritage, but they set themselves apart from either of those foundational religions with The Koran.

Members of LDS church accept the Christian bible, but they set themselves apart with The Book of Mormon.

I think the Mormon Church has the same relationship to Christianity that the Christian churches have to the Jewish religion. There is an overlap between a foundational church and its offshoots, but an entirely new set of scriptures would set them apart.

that allows mormonism to be seen as successful exploitation of Americans' interest in evangelicalism typified by the Millerite movement of the 1820s. IMO Mormonism is way more than acceptance of a fictional text as sacred writing. It's the outcome of a collision between northeastern American religious belief of the early 19th century (Methodism, Congregationalism, Universalism, and Unitarianism), Masonry, popular myths and what might be considered querky religious questions arising from narrow/fundamentalist views of protestant christianity and one man's exceptional image of himself.

Mormons do not believe the bible or any "christian church beliefs". They keep the bible around to fool YOU, but they ignore all of it other than as tool to understand how to push your psychological buttons.

The ENTIRE REASON there was a mormon religion created, according to their doctrine is because ALL CHRISTIANS are duped, deceived and fallen away. That is the ENTIRETY of why they were invented by Joseph Smith, which is pretty insulting to people who do have some faith in the old and/or new testament. It's not surprising that they were kicked out of America back then, because it is pretty insulting.

Care to back up your assertions about mormons with some documentation?

"They keep the bible around to fool YOU"

Gee, that sounds a tad bigoted to me.

I gave you a link up top for scores of YouTube videos, pro & con, mostly con, since the mormon corporation produces their own pro-mormon videos.

Why Mormonism is not Christianity

and i think mormons do believe in jesus albeit in a different way... so technically i would believe by definition they are regardless of what huckabee and bachmann say.

Muslims also accept Jesus as a prophet and he is featured prominently in the Qu'ran, but they believe they have a more recent scriptures than the Bible. So do Mormons.

Mormons believe Jesus is divine, and call him 'Christ' (ie 'annointed') - it's in their official church name. Muslims, however, think he was a fully human prophet, along with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Muhammed.

Asking that question, and then discussing the topic, would cause some number of evangelicals to decide to stay home on election day.

So no one is going to ask it.

Because southern evangelicals faced with voting for the black guy or voting for the brother-of-satan will stay home. It's a legitimate question politically because for four years the reichwing has used rev wright and muslim madrassas as a way to get fools to come out to vote. Who controls the puppet-strings of the knee-jerks matters -- I'd rather see the bible belt stay home if they can't see that they are tools being used.

than you, or DU.

Its not going to be a topic of meaningful discussion.

to be a form of Christianity.


rocktivity

since Christians include the Old Testament teachings in their Bible.

And, by your definition, the Muslim religion is a form of Christianity and Judaism, since it sprung from both. (And Muslims accept the teachings of Jesus, by the way.)


IMO, when Christians added the New Testament to the Jewish Bible, they formed a new religion.
When the Muslims accepted The Koran in addition to the teachings of Jesus and Biblical tradition, they became a new religion.

And when the Mormons accepted The Book of Mormon on top of the Christian Bible, they became a new religion.

There's more to it that saying "Jehovah is the one god". One of the features of the start of Christianity was the fight over whether non-Jews could be in the religion - because they weren't admitted to Judaism.

Mormons, unlike Muslims, call Jesus 'Christ' and believe him to the the son of god. That's what makes them 'Christian'.

It isn't a monotheistic religion, unlike both Christianity and Judaism.

This key difference is what makes them Mormon, not Christian, even if they think Jesus is a god. Someday, according to their theology, Mitt could be one, too. And Anne could be a goddess.

They're already practicing.

To be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ; to be a follower of Christ is to follow what He said; what He said was recorded in the writings known today as the Bible; Mormonism does not line up with the Bible.

As spelled out in the Nicene Creed; it is a principal belief in being a Christian.

Mormons do not.

Eg President Taft?

Since the concept of the Trinity wasn't invented until the 2nd century AD, does that mean St. Peter, St. Paul etc. weren't Christians?

They do not subscribe to the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed or any creed at all.

You do not have to say you believe anything in particular to be a Unitarian-Universalist.

I know of no other religious denomination without a creed. That is what I believe makes UUism vital.

You can be a UU and a Christian, a Pagan, an Atheist, an Agnostic or nothing in particular.

www.uua.org

because Ikonoklast said Christians had to believe in the Trinity. Do you say Christianity started only when the first creed was written and agreed on, then? Those 1st century believers weren't Christians, to you?

speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. So the Trinity didn't need to wait on anything later.

I think it's irrelevant because Jesus did not really exist. There is no independent record of his existence outside of the NT. But he said "I come not in peace, but with a sword; I come to set [families apart]" and many other hateful and illogical things.

So you can believe anything you want and be a xtian. It's utterly meaningless because the scriptures are contradictory and useless.
They were not written when Jesus was alive; they are third-hand accounts translated through several languages; they repeat each other and were edited to make political statements by the Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicaea, and at later times as well.
They were written in order to support the authoritarian status quo, support slavery and the subjugation of women and minorities.

There are SEVERAL HUNDRED contradictions in the Bible. It's not fit as a moral guide because of this.

One small example of contradictions.

Did Jesus baptise anyone??
John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
John 4:2
Though Jesus himself baptised not, but his disciples.

In the United States people have the freedom to practice their religion or to practice no religion. I could care less about Romney's religion, I care about his policies and ideas and the fact that he will cater to the furthest of the right wing in his party to stay in power.
Religion should stay the hell out of politics. It should be a personal, private issue, even when running for President. We have got to stop caring about it.

25% of all GOP voters believe Obama is a foreigner, a muslim, and rev wright is his apostle or something.

They think mormons are christian but never understood that satan lies, and mormons are ok with that.

Are you saying that you believe Satan guides Mormonism in some way?

I am a Christian, my husband is church organist of all things. But religion has no place in politics, especially for Dems. Here in New England no one cares about it. It is none of anyone's business.

As much as the Republicans have been praising Romney, I don't think any of them have gone that far ...

... but judeo-christian theology does not start with god creating Jesus and Satan as brothers, and bye & bye creating everybody else also as their co-equal brothers (or sisters, although sisters are a bit less co-equal just like in Judeo-Christian lore). In Mormon, you can supercede Jesus and Satan and be god in your own world or universe, the top of the pinnacle, CEO of everything.

Since you don't have any idea of their motivational theology, you don't really understand what one might do with his hand on the "button". Does mormon have any downside to blowing up the world? You dont know, they won't tell you, and the only way you find out for sure is to give the nuclear launch codes to a guy who believes that he is satan's brother. As Clint Eastwood would ask: "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

we were told mormons, like catholics, are cult members - not christians.

Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were heavenly brothers before the big "war in heaven" broke out. Mormons believe "spirit babies" select the families they will be born into here on earth. Mormons believe the holy trinity are three unique individuals - two with physical reincarnated bodies and one with a heavenly wife. Mormons believe the God of this world lives on the planet Kolob with his heavenly wife. Mormons believe in modern day revelation and they believe that only their church leader speaks directly with God. Mormons believe in multiple Gods overseeing multiple worlds and they believe that members who obey church doctrine may become "Gods of other worlds." Mormons believe in heavenly polygamy and baptism of the dead and sealing of the dead together in a heavenly eternal bond. Mormons believe theirs is the one and only true faith and that all other faiths are distractions from the the devil.

Finally Mormons believe in the economic power of shopping malls and condos and may hold more commercial real estate of any religion on earth.

And Mormons consider themselves Christian.

...Because the New Testament doesn't matter in issues of christianity.

Christians Are Not Authorized To Vote For Mormons

Because I did not understand your rhetorical point.

Would you give the nuclear launch codes to ANYBODY who believes that Satan is not bad, is in fact co-equal brother to Jesus, believes in fact Satan is co-equal to himself, except satan never gave $40,000,000 tithes to the mormon church so satan and jesus are probably lower standing in the hierarchy in his mind.

You do not have any inkling how he will act because you understand nothing about his core beliefs. Now about giving him the launch codes... does he share your beliefs that blowing up the world is a bad thing? Generally christians are indoctrinated with beliefs that resist that impulse. but what indoctrinated RMoney?

I hate to be in the uncomfortable position of defending Romney, but this is an absurd premise.

There are many, MANY, reasons to vote for President Obama, and against Mitt Romney.

But this isn't one of them.

in god.

The Book of Mormon is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated. The New Testament is the end of the Bible, not the bullcrap text that Joseph Smith pulled out of his ass.

of the political process

.. past the separation of church and state, and made religion an issue to be confronted as a political actor.

"Personhood" is a 100% religious intrusion of religion into politics. A "citizen" is defined in the constitution: Natural born or naturalized, in both case BORN, post-partum. There are no constitutional rights for fetuses.

The very idea that fetuses need rights is based on the religious belief that god is an errand-boy delivering souls to fertilized eggs on demand of procreative indulgences both "legitimate" or otherwise.

I find the idea blasphemous, that god is hustled by common rapists into delivering a soul to their hell-spawn.

I find it twice blasphemous that people force a women to bear the hell-spawn, and question the motivations of the enforcers.

But the point is RELIGION is driving politics through the wall of separation of church & state.

It's not society's business what's going on inside a woman's underpants. A warrant is required to look inside her desk drawers, how much more private is her bloomer drawers? That's the whole PRIVACY ISSUE of Roe V Wade, that the constitution limits govt power over individual private affairs.

Forcing religion to invade a woman's private parts with ultrasound or restrictive laws is unAmerican.

It is a corrupted cult. Jesus has nothing to do with it.

It is beyond bizarre!

Ergo, buy the Mormon's own words, they aren't Christians.