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applegrove

(118,767 posts)
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 09:55 PM Dec 2015

Bernie supporters could blow this election: Why refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton will only make

Bernie supporters could blow this election: Why refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton will only make everything worse

by Gary LeGum at Salon

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/02/bernie_supports_could_blow_this_election_why_refusing_to_vote_for_hillary_clinton_will_only_make_things_worse/

"SNIP.................


I recall a debate that year about whether true liberals should vote for Nader because, in his formulation, there was not a dime’s worth of difference between the two major-party candidates, Al Gore and George W. Bush. I recall email blasts from at least one acquaintance in a toss-up state trying to interest his friends in states that were safely for Gore in a voting trade of sorts, whereby one of us would cast our vote for Nader; in return, our friend would cast his vote for Gore. The thinking was that this would preserve a Democratic victory in both states while also registering liberal protests at the centrist drift of the party.

I recall spending the night before the election drinking in a P.F. Chang’s in Los Angeles with a group of friends, one of whom had brought along a reporter from the L.A. Daily News who planned on casting her vote the next day for Nader. There had been some vague concern over polls showing the race for California’s 54 electoral votes might be close, but she assured us all that this was not the case. California was safely in Gore’s column, so liberals might as well cast that protest vote.

I recall thinking that this was a dumb idea, mostly because I followed the campaign closely enough to believe that the “not a dime’s worth of difference” formulation was utter garbage. But there was a nationwide movement of voters like my acquaintance and that reporter pushing the deal.

I recall spending election night lying on the floor of my room, nursing an enormous hangover, screaming at my TV when the networks started calling Florida for Bush. It seemed that some liberals in Florida had cast those protest votes in the closest of close races because they just couldn’t bring themselves to pull the lever for Gore. So we got Florida and the recounts and the Brooks Brothers riot and generally a display of American democracy in action that was more embarrassing than anything in the previous 30 years, which up until then you wouldn’t have thought possible.




..................SNIP"
153 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bernie supporters could blow this election: Why refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton will only make (Original Post) applegrove Dec 2015 OP
Saw this one posted in the hillary supporters site HerbChestnut Dec 2015 #1
I found it on Reddit. Don't go to any Hillary sites. applegrove Dec 2015 #9
Well in that case it's just another tally in the long list of anti Bernie supporter threads. HerbChestnut Dec 2015 #14
Agree. 840high Dec 2015 #15
Hillary supporters often say they'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee. It is the Bernie applegrove Dec 2015 #22
No it's not anti-Bernie HerbChestnut Dec 2015 #24
The issue is one Bernie supporters have brought up. And spread. Voluntarily. Now it is applegrove Dec 2015 #27
Last post on this subject because I have other things to do HerbChestnut Dec 2015 #29
Right. Caveat, they believe he'll never be the nominee, so it isn't much of a challenge for them. Ed Suspicious Dec 2015 #79
Be real. Bernie supporters "often" say they'll vote for Hillary. Some in both groups have said merrily Dec 2015 #107
Many are hoping for this bravenak Dec 2015 #2
Finally, someone at Salon with at least a half of a brain. JaneyVee Dec 2015 #3
Must be nice.... daleanime Dec 2015 #4
*chortle nt artislife Dec 2015 #40
Yep. GoneFishin Dec 2015 #84
Lining up excuses for a Hillary loss, looks like to me. djean111 Dec 2015 #5
I reject the premise of the article vt_native Dec 2015 #6
There were also the 200,000 "pragmatic" FL Democrats who voted for Bush... Scootaloo Dec 2015 #13
Excellent. Pragmatism isn't a worthy end goal! artislife Dec 2015 #41
I think when Bernie endorses her and campaigns for her it will go a long way towards preventing DanTex Dec 2015 #7
+1 Perfect. MeNMyVolt Dec 2015 #10
Right. Bernie isn't Nader, and most of his supporters Hortensis Dec 2015 #75
Voting for Hillary in the primary will make everything worse. Broward Dec 2015 #8
I fear you are correct. nt. Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #28
I agree. My take on the OP is we need to ensure Bernie wins the primary nomination! peacebird Dec 2015 #76
Still waiting for a Clinton pledge to not run as an independent, should she lose Scootaloo Dec 2015 #11
unlike bernie, hillary has never been an independent nt msongs Dec 2015 #21
Also unlike Bernie, Clinton has never pledged to not split the ticket. Scootaloo Dec 2015 #26
For Joe party loyalty (pffft) was a ruse to be inside the tent where he could do the most damage. GoneFishin Dec 2015 #85
If she would run as a Republican INdemo Dec 2015 #93
I suspect most will come to their senses by election day. DCBob Dec 2015 #12
Hopefully they'll come to their senses by primary election day and go with Bernie. eom Fawke Em Dec 2015 #64
"I recall spending the night before the election drinking in a P.F. Chang’s . . " Major Hogwash Dec 2015 #16
Only if they are nursing a pit bull. Kalidurga Dec 2015 #65
If Hillary is nominated and loses, that's on her and DWS. CharlotteVale Dec 2015 #17
We can certainly try to blame Karma13612 Dec 2015 #31
Obama won in spite of the PUMAs. If Hillary gets the nod & can't win the general, that's on her. AtomicKitten Dec 2015 #46
If she wins the primaries, it would be foolish not to support her Matariki Dec 2015 #18
The time to have this discussion is after the primary. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #19
After at least one Paulie Dec 2015 #20
After we have a nominee. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #23
Some people have been trying to fast forward past the primaries for a year, now. Warren DeMontague Dec 2015 #70
They want a coronation, not a primary. eom Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #116
I am one of thsoe who think Clinton is gong to win. I think the vote in the General Election Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #135
Bernie gets my primary vote, but I will vote in the General for whomever wins the Dem primary. woodsprite Dec 2015 #25
Thank you for giving the response they were going for artislife Dec 2015 #39
But, Hillary has such a huge support base, why would it even matter if we, Bernie supporters, litlbilly Dec 2015 #30
The left of the party is never wanted until the right wing of the party needs a scapegoat Scootaloo Dec 2015 #42
Bingo!!! tazkcmo Dec 2015 #112
If Clinton and DWS and the cornation committe don't care about the Millennials, Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #117
Is this the 5276th post on this topic, or the 5277th? kath Dec 2015 #32
just on du, or at the Sanders hate site? Doctor_J Dec 2015 #36
Applegrove ... Trajan Dec 2015 #33
So I cannot talk about issues involved in this nomination race without it becoming personal? This is applegrove Dec 2015 #35
The establishment has spoken. NorthCarolina Dec 2015 #34
The whole point of the article is that Republicans win if we, at a basic level, don't stick together applegrove Dec 2015 #37
Sticking together works both ways pengu Dec 2015 #105
This assumes she wins the nomination. nt artislife Dec 2015 #38
One more thing on this doomed thread. If Hillary wins the nomination and somehow the presidency, litlbilly Dec 2015 #43
That pretty much sums it up for me. n/t Hepburn Dec 2015 #124
I will vote for the person I choose to vote for in the Democratic Primary Aerows Dec 2015 #44
The point of the article is to vote for the person in the general election who is a democrat. It is applegrove Dec 2015 #48
No offense, but once again Aerows Dec 2015 #49
I don't want the GOP to wedge us apart from each other come election time. applegrove Dec 2015 #54
Then stop supporting lousy candidates ibegurpard Dec 2015 #56
LOL Fawke Em Dec 2015 #66
She can't really support any American candidate, beyond words on a message board... demmiblue Dec 2015 #110
Dems like Clinton that have wedged us apart already pengu Dec 2015 #88
Ummm... us? I find this rather bizarre. demmiblue Dec 2015 #109
The point is tazkcmo Dec 2015 #113
Another attempt at hostage taking...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Indepatriot Dec 2015 #45
It was Al Gore's fault why he lost the 2000 election. gordyfl Dec 2015 #47
It's all those Bernie supporters' fault that Hillary polls worse in the general election? jfern Dec 2015 #50
The DNC could blow this entire election by trying to force HRC down our throats. Cassiopeia Dec 2015 #51
Bingo. AtomicKitten Dec 2015 #53
Well said n/t MissDeeds Dec 2015 #99
Spot on. Funny how only one side has responsability, the other indemnity. eom Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #118
A new poll found that Bernie Sanders beats every top Republican gordyfl Dec 2015 #52
k&r Starry Messenger Dec 2015 #55
Nominating The Wrong Candidate... CorporatistNation Dec 2015 #57
I'm going to vote for our nominee in the... one_voice Dec 2015 #58
once again the old meme appears, just like clockwork.... mike_c Dec 2015 #59
Only in the minds of Republicans is Democrats voting for their nominee in the General Election applegrove Dec 2015 #60
No, DINOs share that frame of mind. n/t Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #119
OMG, please STOP shoving her down our throats. We will vote for her if she earns our votes. reformist2 Dec 2015 #61
Let me start with this reason Aerows Dec 2015 #62
That's an excellent reason to be for Bernie. But what happens applegrove Dec 2015 #68
I guess the DNC should stop foisting Republican-Lite candidates on us, then. Fawke Em Dec 2015 #63
And when are they going to accept that the 90-ies are over? Like, never coming back? Ever? eom Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #121
Worried? Kalidurga Dec 2015 #67
If Hillary is the candidate and loses it will be her fault Armstead Dec 2015 #69
dead car batteries, chipped tooth enamel, floorboards with dry rot, melted halloween candy, Warren DeMontague Dec 2015 #71
So stupid. joshcryer Dec 2015 #72
1% is a huge amount in a Presidential race. applegrove Dec 2015 #73
0.36% went Green in 2012. joshcryer Dec 2015 #74
Dr Jill Stein may not be "new" & "charismatic" but she represents my views to a T RiverLover Dec 2015 #86
But she won't be a relevant challenger to the Democrats. joshcryer Dec 2015 #90
True that. RiverLover Dec 2015 #91
I was speaking solely of vote percentage. joshcryer Dec 2015 #92
Third way mentality, lesser of two evils, are all ploys to cajole people, Donald & Hillary are orpupilofnature57 Dec 2015 #77
The Lesser of Two Evils gordyfl Dec 2015 #95
I'm no Ralph fan , But Great example !!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Dec 2015 #147
teamwork reddread Dec 2015 #151
many of us DonCoquixote Dec 2015 #78
Nominate Bernie then. Problem solved. CBGLuthier Dec 2015 #80
I've not yet seen any Hillary supporter say they would not vote for Bernie if he won. I have seen applegrove Dec 2015 #141
This is why it is critical she not win the primary pengu Dec 2015 #81
And the lesson from 2010 / 2014: Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #122
And what was Obama if not "establishment"? Arkana Dec 2015 #144
My not voting for hillary has nothing to do with my support for bernie bowens43 Dec 2015 #82
+1 RiverLover Dec 2015 #87
Guess you need a better candidate then. Katashi_itto Dec 2015 #83
Ever More Loathsome Fear Mongering And Obfuscation cantbeserious Dec 2015 #89
It's more arrogance and entitlement pengu Dec 2015 #101
Roger That cantbeserious Dec 2015 #111
It's Accepted Fact gordyfl Dec 2015 #94
The "Bernie or Bust" types flatter themselves ... NurseJackie Dec 2015 #96
Talk about petty. That looks more like a selfie Armstead Dec 2015 #123
Congrats -- you are one of the main posters on the DU who has turned me against HRC Hepburn Dec 2015 #127
Contrats and a tip-of-the-hat to yourself as well! It certainly takes a special kind of person ... NurseJackie Dec 2015 #132
The PUMAs in 2008 tried to make themselves look bigger too. Arkana Dec 2015 #145
That's before my time ... someone had to explain PUMA to me. NurseJackie Dec 2015 #146
Money in Politics - Things Haven't Changed Much gordyfl Dec 2015 #97
It won't matter in my state bigwillq Dec 2015 #98
Jersey a Dem State, also. gordyfl Dec 2015 #100
Who could also blow this election: RW Dems who cross party lines to vote Republican. merrily Dec 2015 #102
Because we run them as candidates? pengu Dec 2015 #103
This is not a reply to the OP, but I still think it's both a thread win and a DUzy. merrily Dec 2015 #106
Let me add some meat my snarky bones then pengu Dec 2015 #128
I love your "snarky bones!" Bookmarking. Small wonder they have no use for a candidate trying to merrily Dec 2015 #133
Wow! That was an interesting post. gordyfl Dec 2015 #136
Lieberman is a special kind of awful pengu Dec 2015 #138
Victory for Joe Lieberman gordyfl Dec 2015 #139
We got community health centers - thanks to Sanders pengu Dec 2015 #140
Straight fire. frylock Dec 2015 #148
I'm a dailykos 5 refugee pengu Dec 2015 #150
True that. And welcome! nt raouldukelives Dec 2015 #153
You're right, there are a lot of RW Dems in FL. gordyfl Dec 2015 #120
*yawn* I refuse to speculate until AFTER the primary. Thanks, anyway. Hiraeth Dec 2015 #104
+1 and screw McCarthyites in all their shape-shifting forms anyway. merrily Dec 2015 #108
In other words: vote for the lesser of two evils or else. Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #114
I don't take any of those threats seriously. MoonRiver Dec 2015 #115
Hillary supporters could blow this election... Chan790 Dec 2015 #125
One more fucking time. 99Forever Dec 2015 #126
Take the Hillary Pledge gordyfl Dec 2015 #129
Hillary can't win a general election AgingAmerican Dec 2015 #130
But they won't.... brooklynite Dec 2015 #131
The "Not as Bad" ploy is long past it's due date. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2015 #134
Democrats Should "Stick Together" Like... gordyfl Dec 2015 #137
There are a lot of people who believe the lie Ralph Nader foisted on us in 2000. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2015 #142
If Democrats lose, it's their own damned fault. frylock Dec 2015 #149
damn straight blueman mmxvi Dec 2015 #143
Well, if it's common knowlege that she'll lose in the GE- why is she running? notadmblnd Dec 2015 #152
 

HerbChestnut

(3,649 posts)
14. Well in that case it's just another tally in the long list of anti Bernie supporter threads.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:02 PM
Dec 2015

I don't want to start a silly argument but this type of stuff is beyond old at this point.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
22. Hillary supporters often say they'll vote for Bernie if he is the nominee. It is the Bernie
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:18 PM
Dec 2015

supporters who most often say they will not vote for the nominee. And that serves the GOP. This article is just the facts of the matter. It is not anti-Bernie in any way. It is pro democratic. And is pushing the rules and regulations of this website.

 

HerbChestnut

(3,649 posts)
24. No it's not anti-Bernie
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:22 PM
Dec 2015

But it adds fuel to the fire that Bernie supporters are here to deny Hillary Clinton the presidency. I think it's an unnecessary article to post and just prods people into arguing with each other.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
27. The issue is one Bernie supporters have brought up. And spread. Voluntarily. Now it is
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:33 PM
Dec 2015

becoming an issue. When should you talk about issues? When it is becoming an issue or after it is one?

 

HerbChestnut

(3,649 posts)
29. Last post on this subject because I have other things to do
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:43 PM
Dec 2015

Voters will vote for whomever they want regardless of this article. It does nothing to compare the candidates and technically isn't even about the primaries, which is what this subforum is supposed to be about. All it does is divide one set of voters from the rest and antagonize people who might otherwise support your candidate in the general. The real issues are the positions of the candidates and what they stand for. That's what this forum is for. This is a provocative OP and nothing more.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
79. Right. Caveat, they believe he'll never be the nominee, so it isn't much of a challenge for them.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:04 AM
Dec 2015

Also, Bernie is fucking awesome, so it's an easy vote.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
107. Be real. Bernie supporters "often" say they'll vote for Hillary. Some in both groups have said
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:08 AM
Dec 2015

they'll never vote for the other candidate.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
5. Lining up excuses for a Hillary loss, looks like to me.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 09:58 PM
Dec 2015

Polls show Sanders beating the GOP better than Hillary.
I'd worry about that before I continued the One Thousand and One Versions of the Pledge-y Thing.

vt_native

(484 posts)
6. I reject the premise of the article
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 09:59 PM
Dec 2015

Gore won Florida and Nader voters did not matter.

Shoulda counted the votes.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
7. I think when Bernie endorses her and campaigns for her it will go a long way towards preventing
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 09:59 PM
Dec 2015

another 2000.

The thing about Nader is that he was pushing the "both sides are the same" line all the way to the end when it was clear it was going to be close. Bernie isn't Nader, and once the primaries are done, he'll be on Hillary's side.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
11. Still waiting for a Clinton pledge to not run as an independent, should she lose
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:01 PM
Dec 2015

Also I wanna see some apologies for the whole PUMA thing, and a promise to not repeat that history from her supporters.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
26. Also unlike Bernie, Clinton has never pledged to not split the ticket.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:31 PM
Dec 2015

Joe Lieberman was a democrat all the way up until he lost a primary to Lamont, too.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
85. For Joe party loyalty (pffft) was a ruse to be inside the tent where he could do the most damage.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:32 AM
Dec 2015

When that failed he chose power mongering over party loyalty. If the precedent fits.

(BTW, I think Joe was elected by ESS and Diebold. Something smelled rotten in CT.)

INdemo

(6,994 posts)
93. If she would run as a Republican
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 08:36 AM
Dec 2015

it would then become Sanders vs Clinton. No doubt she would top the crazies and not lose any donors.
The progressives would return to the polls and everyone would be happy and Hillary could take her rightful place just being a grandma. She should really try that its fun..being a grand parent.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
16. "I recall spending the night before the election drinking in a P.F. Chang’s . . "
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:07 PM
Dec 2015

What a loser, all real Democrats eat at Olive Garden, even I know that!!

Karma13612

(4,554 posts)
31. We can certainly try to blame
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:51 PM
Dec 2015

it on HRC and DWS.

But all the blame in the world won't help the US for 8 loooooonnnnnnnngggggg years while the Repugs drive the middle class off a cliff. Every middle class 99%-er is going to lose ground faster than you can say SCOTUS.

I personally believe in fighting for our chosen candidate all primary season. I don't want to hear a single word about loyalty pledging until the convention.

When the democratic nominee is determined, then I will support the democratic nominee fully.

I am guessing a LOT of us are in this basket.
We just don't want to have to keep assuring everyone all day long.

I will not be happy having to vote for HRC in the general, but I will do it.

But make no mistake about it, I am for Bernie until the last Bernie poster is folded and put away in the closet of broken dreams.

And come 2020, I will be glad to primary her a$$.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
46. Obama won in spite of the PUMAs. If Hillary gets the nod & can't win the general, that's on her.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:05 AM
Dec 2015

I agree with your comment.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
18. If she wins the primaries, it would be foolish not to support her
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:10 PM
Dec 2015

hopefully it's just hot air and frustration speaking in most people.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
23. After we have a nominee.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:19 PM
Dec 2015

Then people can make a statement whether they will support or oppose the Democratic nominee.

Me, I will vote for the Democratic nominee in the General election.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
70. Some people have been trying to fast forward past the primaries for a year, now.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 05:05 AM
Dec 2015

Odd, that they also tell us it's a foregone conclusion who is gonna win the things.

One wonders why they're in such a hurry.

Maybe it's the same keen judgment which causes one to drink in a P.F. Chang's instead of an actual bar.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
135. I am one of thsoe who think Clinton is gong to win. I think the vote in the General Election
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:20 PM
Dec 2015

can wait until we have decided who wins in the primary.

Nothing in life is certain.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
39. Thank you for giving the response they were going for
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:52 PM
Dec 2015

I mean that.



I don't have the patience for it, but it is nice for one of us to not appear like the boogyman to the h supporters.


The fact that I don't believe she will represent the party in the GE helps!

 

litlbilly

(2,227 posts)
30. But, Hillary has such a huge support base, why would it even matter if we, Bernie supporters,
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:49 PM
Dec 2015

didn't vote for Hillary? You do see how stupid this OP is right? Maybe that's why no one has hit rec yet, its destined for the trash bin.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
117. If Clinton and DWS and the cornation committe don't care about the Millennials,
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:34 AM
Dec 2015

how do they expect the Millennials to care about them in the GE? (Especially the ones that aren't registered Democrats?)

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
33. Applegrove ...
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:14 PM
Dec 2015

Like the others, I have enjoyed your company here at DU ...

But, now, not so much ...

For now, I'll just trash this thread ...

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
35. So I cannot talk about issues involved in this nomination race without it becoming personal? This is
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:18 PM
Dec 2015

the history of our party and elections. You don't think we should be and remain vigilant? Not do things that favour the GOP? Wow. As much as it pains me to lose your good favour, I still feel free to talk about politics on a political website.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
34. The establishment has spoken.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:16 PM
Dec 2015

Thou shalt vote for Hillary...or the Republican; either is fine. However, Bernie votes will not be tolerated...or counted probably.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
37. The whole point of the article is that Republicans win if we, at a basic level, don't stick together
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:20 PM
Dec 2015

as Democrats. Quit purposely misinterpreting a whole article on how not to play into GOP hands.

pengu

(462 posts)
105. Sticking together works both ways
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:01 AM
Dec 2015

Or at least, it's supposed to. What I see is the party demanding people stick together while insulting and dismissing the very, very real complaints people have with status quo garbage.

 

litlbilly

(2,227 posts)
43. One more thing on this doomed thread. If Hillary wins the nomination and somehow the presidency,
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 11:59 PM
Dec 2015

that to me is the epitome of a blown election for the 99%

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
44. I will vote for the person I choose to vote for in the Democratic Primary
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:01 AM
Dec 2015

If you are frightened that your particular candidate will lose?

They need to be a better candidate. You don't keep losing because you are great.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
48. The point of the article is to vote for the person in the general election who is a democrat. It is
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:12 AM
Dec 2015

not trying to take anybody's primary vote away.

demmiblue

(36,875 posts)
110. She can't really support any American candidate, beyond words on a message board...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:17 AM
Dec 2015

she is Canadian.

(For the malcontents, I do plan on voting for the Dem candidate in the general)

gordyfl

(598 posts)
47. It was Al Gore's fault why he lost the 2000 election.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:09 AM
Dec 2015

People should stop whining about the 2000 Election.

It was Al Gore's fault why he lost the 2000 election.

1) If Al Gore carried his home state of Tennessee, he wins. He did not carry his home state.

2) If Al Gore carried Bill Clinton's home state of Arkansas, Gore wins. He did not carry Bill Clinton's state.

If Al Gore carried either of those two states (not both) the election is over, and Florida means nothing.

Here's the big question. How did Dems lose to Bush a second time (2004)? You would think 4 years of Bush Dems would win by a landslide. Bush won TWICE. Dems were unable to shift the blame to Nader in 2004. Nader was not a factor.

To lose to Bush TWICE is pretty pitiful.

The problem was neither Gore nor Kerry could garnish the enthusiasm needed for Democrats to win.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
50. It's all those Bernie supporters' fault that Hillary polls worse in the general election?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:16 AM
Dec 2015

Got it. The plan is to whine about "professional leftists" not bowing down before their superior 3rd way masters.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
51. The DNC could blow this entire election by trying to force HRC down our throats.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:18 AM
Dec 2015

That could be another headline as well.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
52. A new poll found that Bernie Sanders beats every top Republican
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:25 AM
Dec 2015

A new Quinnipiac University poll found that Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders beats every top Republican candidate in hypothetical general election matchups.

The Quinnipiac poll showed Sanders beating Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and Ben Carson:

– Topping Trump 49 – 41 percent;
– Getting 44 percent to Rubio’s 43 percent;
– Beating Cruz 49 – 39 percent;
– Leading Carson 47 – 41 percent.

Sanders has the highest net approval rating ( +12) of any candidate Democratic or Republican, and he is also the candidate that voters deemed the most honest (59%-28%).

While Sanders does better on net approval rating and honesty than Hillary Clinton, the Democratic frontrunner also leads against all of the top Republicans.

The Quinnipiac Poll demonstrates how far Sen. Sanders has come in a short period. The attacks on him for being a “socialist” aren’t working. Voters are responding to his economic message and his honesty.

Bernie Sanders has risen to become the second electable possibility for Democrats in 2016, and if could upset Hillary Clinton to win the Democratic nomination, the senator from Vermont might be favored to become the next President Of The United States.

Here's the poll...

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2307

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
57. Nominating The Wrong Candidate...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:49 AM
Dec 2015

e.g., the purported "front-runner," will blow the election... It is inappropriate to criticize those who are voting predominantly on Candidate Principle, Past voting and policy record of the Candidate, consistency of position, and on whom they feel can most be Trusted to perform as POTUS most closely to their campaign rhetoric.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
58. I'm going to vote for our nominee in the...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:06 AM
Dec 2015

GE.

Given the events of the last week and the responses coming from that side as well as the additional rhetoric...fuck that. They really scare the shit out of me.

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
59. once again the old meme appears, just like clockwork....
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:18 AM
Dec 2015

This election is too important to risk, so progressives must knuckle under and support the centrist establishment annointed one. This gets trotted out every time. Every time.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
60. Only in the minds of Republicans is Democrats voting for their nominee in the General Election
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:24 AM
Dec 2015

a meme. A quaint little idea really....

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
62. Let me start with this reason
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:42 AM
Dec 2015

You already *have* universal health care.

We watch our relatives and friends die in droves.

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
68. That's an excellent reason to be for Bernie. But what happens
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:17 AM
Dec 2015

if Hillary is the nominee? If our base does not come out in the general election the Republicans win and repeal even Obama care. Today it was just an ounce they have a new drug to slow down aging. The GOP will build in that this new drug only goes to the rich. The testing starts next year. The USA would get pretty crowded. The GOP requires a dye off. They will do anything to keep any people from living. Medicade and medicare will be destroyed. And who really wants to see the Koch brothers live to 120? The whole point of my OP is that things will get really bad if we Democrats don't stick together in the end. It only benefits the GOP, who are promoting the whole Bernie supporters should not want to vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination race meme.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
63. I guess the DNC should stop foisting Republican-Lite candidates on us, then.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:48 AM
Dec 2015

When are THEY going to accept that the fault is theirs and not the voters?

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
69. If Hillary is the candidate and loses it will be her fault
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 02:38 AM
Dec 2015

And the fault of the Democrats who nominated her.
If she fails to energize enough people to vote for her, that'll be because she couldn't attract enough.

Blaming it on Sanders supporters would just be a convenient excuse.


Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
71. dead car batteries, chipped tooth enamel, floorboards with dry rot, melted halloween candy,
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 05:30 AM
Dec 2015

insufficiently caulked window wells and that nagging persistent toenail fungus......


DAMN YOU, SANDERS SUPPORTERS! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
72. So stupid.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:03 AM
Dec 2015

People who don't vote for Clinton will still vote, they'll just vote Green. Big deal. The Greens might get 1% of the vote. Bigger deal. The Libertarians will probably break the 5% barrier this time around with the clown car that the Republicans are running.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
74. 0.36% went Green in 2012.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:38 AM
Dec 2015

0.99% went Libertarian. The Libertarians will always get more than the Greens unless the Greens run a credible candidate.

Until that happens I'm not worried in the least.

(And, no, Nader can't make a comeback, the Greens would need someone new, fresh, and with good charismatic and amazing speech abilities. Jill Stein is not that candidate.)

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
86. Dr Jill Stein may not be "new" & "charismatic" but she represents my views to a T
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:33 AM
Dec 2015


I'd be proud to vote for the leading progressive party & the only party not poisoned by corporate $, if Bernie is not on the ballot.


joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
90. But she won't be a relevant challenger to the Democrats.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:59 AM
Dec 2015

"Leading" is overstating, to a huge extent, the state of the Green party. It's unfortunate, in 2000 the Green party had a chance to meet the 5% threshold, but Nader decided he'd be better off campaigning in NH and FL rather than growing the party.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
92. I was speaking solely of vote percentage.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 08:16 AM
Dec 2015

The Libertarians will have a huge showing in 2016 unless the Republicans pull a sane candidate out of the blue.

 

orpupilofnature57

(15,472 posts)
77. Third way mentality, lesser of two evils, are all ploys to cajole people, Donald & Hillary are
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 06:57 AM
Dec 2015

Dopplegangers .

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
78. many of us
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:02 AM
Dec 2015

will pull down the democratic lever regardless of who is on the bill, because we remember Nader 2000. Yelling at us as if the mere thought of challenging Hillary is a threat will only reaffirm the fear that come Jan 2016, we will be ignored again.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
80. Nominate Bernie then. Problem solved.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:11 AM
Dec 2015

because we all know that all the PUMAs, I mean Clinton supporters will gladly vote for the candidate even if it isn't their anointed one. Right?

applegrove

(118,767 posts)
141. I've not yet seen any Hillary supporter say they would not vote for Bernie if he won. I have seen
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 03:47 PM
Dec 2015

many a Bernie supporter say they would not automatically vote for the nominee. That is out there. Being stirred up by the GOP no doubt. That is why someone had to write an article about it.

pengu

(462 posts)
81. This is why it is critical she not win the primary
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:21 AM
Dec 2015

The party must learn the lesson from 2000 and 2004. Establishment candidates are not winners.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
122. And the lesson from 2010 / 2014:
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:47 AM
Dec 2015

"We are not as bad as the GOP" is never going to win the day. NEVER.

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
144. And what was Obama if not "establishment"?
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 05:03 PM
Dec 2015

He had support from some of the most surprising corners of the party--Ted Kennedy endorsed him very early on and gave him the legitimacy he needed. TRUE insurgent campaigns need a black swan event to win nominations. If Obama had not upset Hillary in Iowa, do you honestly think he'd be President now? No. He'd have flamed out before South Carolina. Endorsements from party stalwarts and an early victory gave him legitimacy--it showed people "Hey, this guy can win things."

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
82. My not voting for hillary has nothing to do with my support for bernie
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 07:25 AM
Dec 2015

I won't vote for hillary because she is completely unethical. She is unfit to lead this country. I would not vote for her any sooner then I would vote trump. If she gets the nomination and loses the presidency it isn't because I didnt vote for her, it's because so many voted for her in the primaries.

pengu

(462 posts)
101. It's more arrogance and entitlement
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:46 AM
Dec 2015

It's demanding a vote is owed to the party, rather than the party needing to earn the vote.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
96. The "Bernie or Bust" types flatter themselves ...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:02 AM
Dec 2015

... but beyond the walls of this web site, they don't exist in sufficient numbers. They overestimate the value of passive-aggressive blackmail efforts. Bernie's "soft support" poll numbers already indicate the disparity between DU and the real-world.

They'll do as they please, no matter what, and I take them at their word. Why should anyone continue to indulge the vanities or validate their petty grudges?

People who say such things likely do so because they're feeling vulnerable and helpless. It's a way to regain some sense of power and control. Let them have their tantrum. Let them threaten to hold their breath until they turn-blue and pass out.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
123. Talk about petty. That looks more like a selfie
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:49 AM
Dec 2015

That's a really good way to make people who support Sanders but might be on the fence feel welcome.

I guess you want a small tent party.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
132. Contrats and a tip-of-the-hat to yourself as well! It certainly takes a special kind of person ...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:18 AM
Dec 2015

... to proudly proclaim that they are so easily influenced by the comments of anonymous strangers on an internet discussion forum.



PS: Just so you know, I don't actually believe you. You're grandstanding. It's pretty obvious where you've stood all along, and I find it laughable that little-ol' me has the power to change your opinion one way or the other. You'll do as you please, and that's perfectly fine. Find your cajoling elsewhere, it won't come from me.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
146. That's before my time ... someone had to explain PUMA to me.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 05:08 PM
Dec 2015

But I guess you're right. I'm sure it must be very frustrating to be on the losing side, and that manifests itself with anger and revenge.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
97. Money in Politics - Things Haven't Changed Much
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:24 AM
Dec 2015
With Hillary Expected to Collect over a $$ Billion Dollars this election - mostly coming from BIG Donors and Corporations, things haven't changed much since 2000 -- they've only gotten worse....




 

bigwillq

(72,790 posts)
98. It won't matter in my state
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:25 AM
Dec 2015

I live in CT. The DEM nominee will win my state with or without my vote.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
100. Jersey a Dem State, also.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:41 AM
Dec 2015

Same here. I'm from NJ. Both Bernie or Hillary would win against the Republican candidate. I think even Chris Christie would lose NJ.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
102. Who could also blow this election: RW Dems who cross party lines to vote Republican.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 09:48 AM
Dec 2015

They really helped elect Nixon and Reagan and there were far more of them in Florida in 2000 than there were people who voted Green.

So, how come we never talk about those f*ckers?

pengu

(462 posts)
128. Let me add some meat my snarky bones then
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:03 AM
Dec 2015

Why don't we talk about democrats that back republicans? Let's consider a couple examples.

First let's talk about Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. This is a Democratic representative who has openly backed Republicans over Democrats in neighboring districts. She backed Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Mario Diaz-Balart, and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen over their democratic opponents. After complaints, the best she could do was stay silent. Kind of. Seems like a turncoat democrat, so what do we do? Make her in charge of the Red to Blue program.

Then, as head of that, she does this to candidate Doug Tudor who was making a valiant effort to take a tough district. In his own words:

When I met her in Denver, she immediately told me that she couldn't support me, saying I hadn't raised enough money. I told her that I had raised $100K, that I was a military retiree, that my family is living on my wife's Air Force E6 pay, and that I wasn't able like other "viable" candidates to drop a quarter of a million dollars into my own campaign. I then told her, "Congresswoman, I am one of those working-class guys that our party claims to represent." Her response was "Don't pull that populist stuff with me." I thanked her for her time.


That apparently qualified her to become head of the DNC.

Elsewhere in Florida (it's my state, I know it best), we have a governor's race that was the current republican governor vs. the prior republican governor running as a democrat. The prior republican governor who had ALREADY tanked a senate race after pushing out the Democrat.

Flash forward to today, and consider Patrick Murphy. This is a guy who donated the max to Romney in 2008. After Bush, he decided it was best to donate as much as possible to continue the republican presidency. AFTER BUSH. After that, he flips party and takes a congressional seat from a wacko republican. He goes on to (predictably) vote for things like diluting Dodd-Frank. That apparently is enough to get him the party establishments' backing for the Senate race. He's already been endorsed by many party big wigs such as Biden and Reid.

Those are our CANDIDATES. Democrats that back Republicans are so mainstream we run them as candidates. And you wonder why we don't talk about Dems that vote for Republicans instead of Dems that vote for people like Nader or stay home?

merrily

(45,251 posts)
133. I love your "snarky bones!" Bookmarking. Small wonder they have no use for a candidate trying to
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:23 AM
Dec 2015

take money out of elections. If the wealth of the country is with the wealthy, then the wealthy deserve to run the country, too. That seems to be the "thinking," for want of a better word.

I wish I knew a way to imprint this kind of info on the minds of Americans. You know, in Texas, churches offer courses to public schools, at the expense of the churches. I keep saying Democrats need some equivalent of the church networks, youth groups, etc.

I am dead serious: At age 4, I watched my father listening to election results as though all our lives depended on the Democrats winning. I imprinted as a Democrat that night.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
136. Wow! That was an interesting post.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:40 PM
Dec 2015

Come to think of it, I voted for Democrat Joe Lieberman (Gore / Lieberman). Next thing I know, Lieberman is speaking at the Republican Convention.

Lieberman was also instrumental in blocking the Public Option. He fought hard against it. No wonder. He's well funded by the insurance companies.

Lieberman also co-sponsored the Iraq War Resolution - to give George Bush authorization to go to war. Hillary supported Joe Lieberman on the Resolution.

Joe Lieberman also co-sponsored a Bill giving George Bush the power to go to war with Iran - if Bush deemed it necessary. Fortunately, the Democrats stuck together and were able to prevent the Bill from passing. However....Hillary distanced herself from the Democrats and supported Joe Lieberman's Iran Bill.

pengu

(462 posts)
138. Lieberman is a special kind of awful
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 01:59 PM
Dec 2015

He opposed the public option, and counter proposed lowering the medicare age. Progressives were fine with that. So he backtracked and opposed both.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
139. Victory for Joe Lieberman
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 03:31 PM
Dec 2015

In the end, what did we get? No Public Option and Medicare age stayed at 65. Victory for Joe Lieberman. Defeat for the 99%.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
120. You're right, there are a lot of RW Dems in FL.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:43 AM
Dec 2015

I can see many of them voting for Jeb over Hillary, if, God forbid, it came down to that.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
108. +1 and screw McCarthyites in all their shape-shifting forms anyway.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:11 AM
Dec 2015

The POTUS doesn't have a right to demand to know how anyone will vote. DUers need to get over themselves.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
114. In other words: vote for the lesser of two evils or else.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:26 AM
Dec 2015

Be afraid; be very afraid.

"We are not as bad as the GOP" has always been a winning platform, right? We won 2010 with it, and 2014...

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
115. I don't take any of those threats seriously.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:29 AM
Dec 2015

And by seriously I mean I could care less whether they vote for her, write in their spouse, or whatever. There are so few of these types that what they do doesn't matter at all. This is NOT a Ralph Nader movement.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
125. Hillary supporters could blow this election...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:52 AM
Dec 2015

by continuing to push an unsupportable candidate. If you want our support, throw Hillary over.

It's never her time because she's unfit for the office of the Presidency.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
129. Take the Hillary Pledge
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:05 AM
Dec 2015

Hillary supporters want us to "Take the pledge" as the Republicans did in their debate. Sorry, we're not Republicans. We prefer to think for ourselves.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
130. Hillary can't win a general election
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:07 AM
Dec 2015

Her supporters are already finger pointing, but if we end up with a republican its the fault of those seeking to sink Sanders campaign.

brooklynite

(94,716 posts)
131. But they won't....
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:15 AM
Dec 2015

...some of them will beat their chest about how they'll "never voter for her" throughout the Primary season. When the GE votes are counted, the number who didn't vote for her will be miniscule.

Welcome to the real world outside the blogosphere.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
137. Democrats Should "Stick Together" Like...
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 12:59 PM
Dec 2015

they did here (video). However...Hillary distanced herself from the Democrats, sided with Joe Lieberman, Bush and the other Republicans.

Fortunately, the Democrats "stuck together" and defeated the Bill.


Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
142. There are a lot of people who believe the lie Ralph Nader foisted on us in 2000.
Thu Dec 3, 2015, 04:50 PM
Dec 2015

If Democrats loose, these people deserve everything the Republicans do.

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