I am just sick and tired of all of the threats that some people are making. Like I wrote, if they want to vote for someone other than the Democratic nominee, or they won't vote at all, they need to quit threatening and just go away. They are not needed here.

we have a right to vote for whomever we want, and not vote for those we cannot support. There's not a dimes worth of difference between Clinton and Republicans as far as I'm concerned. She's had ample opportunity to earn my vote but continues to fail at every turn.

The DEMOCRATIC Underground, and technically the terms of use forbid what I am protesting.
You, BUDDY can vote for for whoever the flip you want to vote for and I don't give a dang who that is. Just don't try to threaten me with your vote.

You have a perception problem, but I can't solve it for you. Fortunately, there aren't enough people on DU who will affect the final vote in the General Election, so perception problem is not a national problem by a long stretch.

I didn't call anyone in particular out; I have no I idea whether you in particular are guilty of the behavior that I was complaining about. However, I guess if the shoe fits, you should wear it.

Apparently you aren't the only one of the "senior members" who are wearing those shoes, What's appalling is that on a progressive website that "senior members" feel that they are somehow better than relatively newcomers because they have been posting on a website for longer. Wow, what an accomplishment.

One would think that on a progressive site like DU the "old timers" would respect the opinions of everyone else as much as they do their own. One would also like to believe that they were secure enough in their opinions that they wouldn't need to "pull rank" in order ensure that their opinions are considered better than others.

If you are one of the ones who is going around threatening others with your vote if you don't get what you want, that is just wrong no matter how long you have been posting here. On the other hand, if you are not doing this yourself, but you are defending others simply because you are supporting the same candidate, then you are just as guilty as they are, but you should know better.

works for either foot. Who elected you leader of the unwelcoming committee?

.....based on how long you have been posting on a website. That's lame

Longevity obviously is not synonymous with being respected.

....eventually come to their senses. so they have until a nominee is apparent.

On the other hand, if they have the dubious right to threaten that they will not vote for the nominee, I am damn sure within my rights to say that I don't like and tell them where they can stick their threats.

Threats are only effective when someone cares that the people threatening will do what they say they will do. I just want to make it clear that I no longer care what they do.

Though given Bernie's numbers in polls on this site, it might not be good business to throw us all out.

BSers have turned this site into a nasty place. I've been here for over 11 years and it ain't what it used to be although it is a lot better today since old what's his name was tombstoned.

You find it yourself on the [link:http://|Ask the Administrators] board, I am not going take the time to try to find it for you. It might be easier to ask a question on that board about whether DU members are allowed to post they will not vote for the Democratic nominee during the primary season. I am certain you will get the same answer I read.

... don't expect me to do your work for you. I assume you are fully capable of reading the agreement you signed when you joined you DU and, if you're curious, you can ask your own questions of the administers as to how that agreement applies to the primaries.

evidence your allegations.

to suggest that a vote against hillary means a person is not in their right mind is such screaming arrogance and is the precise reason she will LOSE.

with their positions, record, and character. if they fail to do that then their loss on them. no one is owed a vote becsuse of the letter after their name or for any reason at all. campaigning is to win votes. thats their job.

but has been a life long Democrat in a state where Democrats definitely aren't appreciated, has more Party loyalty than people who has been on DU for years.

There is nothing funny about that!

If we are not talking about you here, you should be a ticked as I am that some of your fellow Sander's supporters are making these threats. It's your Party too.

I make rational decisions because I am not stupid enough to act against my selfish self interests. I guess not everyone is that rational.

Also I was here in 2008 when it was the Hillary supporters pulling the PUMA act so I'm inclined to view the whole situation a bit more philosophically than someone who just breezed in and is unaware of the history of this place and the various factions thereof.

I was a big supporter of Hillary in 2008 with both my money and my time. When she dropped out of the race, she turned over the records of all of her supporters to the Obama campaign and sent out several emails to all of her supporters, including me, asking us to support Barack. Naturally the Obama campaign contacted me almost immediately and I then devoted much more of my money and my time to getting him elected.

I am simply tired of childish behavior is which some Sanders supporters like to indulge. Frankly I don't give a rip how they end up voting - it is their vote do do with as they choose. However, it simply ridiculous to go around threatening that they will not vote for the eventually nominee if it isn't their guy when it is technically illegal on DU to do so. It makes them seem silly and desperate and sooner or later someone was going to call them one it.

I don't mean to offend, but enough is enough.

Hell, all the claims of "Bernie is unelectable" make that absolutely clear because if everyone who would vote Hillary would also vote Bernie then he is at least as electable as she is.

...you are more comfortable arguing about. I don't care what "history tells you" - I have myself have said on DU several times that I would vote and work for Bernie if he is the nominee. I can also not point to one Hillary supporter who has said differently. I wish that the same could be said of all Sanders supporters - but obviously it can't. In fact many Hillary supporters said that they would vote for Bernie if he is the nominee whether they believe him to be electable or not.

But none of that addresses the point I was making, so lets stick to the subject, shall we?

but a good many of us who have been on DU since early in Bush's administration and who have just about had it with DWS and the DNC are lifelong Democrats. Many of us are long time party activists, but there comes a point where you have to wonder if voting for the lesser evil is really the way to go.

i'll be damned if someone tells me how to vote or whether to vote. that stinks. it is not american and it is not democratic. i got a letter in the envelope with my paycheck in the mid 90's from the nonprofit organization's cfo. he told us that if we knew what was good for us we would vote republican. i could not believe he thought he could influence my vote.

in addition, i do not think it is selfish in the least to not vote. it feels more like a sacrifice of my right for the rebellion and the revolution.

I also made it clear that it is stupid and tiresome to threaten other DU folks with your vote, especially when what is threatened is technically illegal on DU.

is legal. you are downright insulting. good riddance.

...did agree to abide by the rules of the site. But I didn't write the DU rules so I will not answer for them.

I am also tired of the stale, "Don't tell me how to vote!" routine. It is an old worn out reply that does not remotely apply in this situation. No one is telling anyone how to vote. I have made it abundantly clear numerous times that I don't give a damn how you or anyone else intends to vote.

I am simply expressing my opinion, which am sure you will agree I am entitled to express here on DU, that it stupid, childish and totally counter productive to threaten others with your precious vote. If you disagree, it is your right to disagree, but please refrain from trying to change the subject so that you can use your old pat replies.

Last edited Sat Dec 19, 2015, 02:13 AM - Edit history (1)

....but how long you have been on DU is not impressive to many folks. What you and others happen to think about the DNC based on your past experiences and who you see fit to vote for are your business and only your business.

I am simply pointing out that people get tired of threats and after threats are made too many times they become meaningless. They are also stupid when they technically not allowed on DU. Threats are useless to persuade others to join in a position; they instead alienate people.

After someone makes threats to many time they should expect people to tell them, "Quit threatening me - I don't care what you do." That time has come.

My post and in response to your holier than thou attitude about being "life long Democrat" that had "more party loyalty" than long time DUers.

My point was that a good many of us have been active in the party for a long, long time - much longer than we've been here and a good many of use are the ones who are really getting fed up with what the Democratic party has become. Blind loyalty to an organization that has abandoned the principles that made us want to join that organization or to anyone who merely puts a "D" after their name makes no sense at all.

The departure of the Southern conservatives not only drove the Republican Party to the right, it also freed the Democratic Party from it's most conservative elements Consequently the Democratic Party has drifted to the left. If anything I suspect that your disappointment is probably centered on the fact that the Democratic Party never drifted as far to the left as you would have liked.

You know there are a lot of similarities between the most conservative and the most liberal elements of their respective parties. Both are extremes unwilling to compromise their principles, but most importantly, both want to pull their parties further to the right or left than is a agreeable to the people in the middle who decide every presidential election. Both fail to understand, or more likely both are unwilling to accept the fact that in order to be able to govern a Party most win elections and that requires having a moderate agenda than you are the Tea Partiers would like.

the country has become more liberal on social issues and the Dems have followed...but the Democratic Party has not become more liberal on economic issues...the Democratic Party leadership is barely distinguishable from the Republican Party on Economic issues.

Did you just miraculously start with thousands of posts?

Worst kind of snobbery is post count snobbery. Pathetic.

It's not like we haven't already heard that particular lecture hundreds of times by now and he was more than normally condescending about delivering it. And it's not the first or second time he's delivered that particular bit of wisdom as if he brought it down from the mountain on stone tablets.

stranger with a burning hot agenda in service to his own fucking interests.

But please quit with the empty threats - they are getting old and ineffective. No one pays attention to the little boy who cried "Wolf!" too many times.

That's one special brand of indifference you've got going there.

that I should follow your interests as my own is presumptuous. In response you hurl meaningless silly insults and claim I made an 'empty threat' simply for not bowing to your commands. When challenged you instantly show your bully. That's all you have got. Which is basically nothing.

Why did all of the campaigns have to sign contracts that they would try to access the data of other campaigns?

But mostly, why did four Sanders staffers spend the 40 minutes that the firewall were down copying Hillary data and storing it in folders on their computers and then try to hide those folders from the computer vendor?

When they noticed the firewall was down, they could have called the vendors help desk and reported the problem. Instead they spent the time the firewall was down copying data. They must have thought the data was valuable are they would not have taken that risk.

One reason I would never vote in your on line polls is because I don't want you to think that gives them legitimacy

I work in IT for a large communications company and I have 42 years of service. Even if our firewalls fail (and they better not) God help you if be caught accessing data for which you don't security permission.

practice?

....idle, or not so idle threats about who they will or will not vote for. They can vote or not vote for whomever they please. I don't give a rat's butt one way or the other. Just don't threaten with you voter when you happen to be unhappy. "Bernie was done wrong, so I'm not going to vote your candidate!" That is a silly, childish, and technically illegal response on DU and such threats have long since lost their effectiveness. It is way past time that someone called them on it.

I'm just concerned about the strange logic of what you wrote in your ttitle.

"How DARE you vote against your self-interests, which you're a selfish person for even HAVING!"

You've forgotten how the Clinton's work.



http://hotair.com/archives/2015/09/18/video-hillary-who-started-the-obama-is-a-muslim-thing-in-2008-appalled-that-trump-might-think-obama-is-a-muslim/

you're telling us how to respond and act and defining exactly how a democrat should act?

you don't sound like a democrat. but, perhaps your preaching will be appreciated elsewhere.

It is very likely that I was an active Democrat long before you were born. And please don't try to impress me with how long you have been of some website. That's pathetic. And I don't care what you think I sound like; your posts already have me convinced that you are not worth arguing with.

is more valid than the other. i take exception to your condescending attitude toward other du'ers. your uppity attitude assumes so much. i know i am older than you - but that is really neither here nor there. you just walked in the door & you are telling everyone the what for about being a democrat. sheesh! who the hell do you think you are? you sound like trump. how long i "have been of some website"? what does this even mean?

You agree, but you still can resist pointing out that "you just walked in the door & you are telling everyone the what for about being a democrat." If you cannot debate the issues without using you longevity or my relative newness on DU as crutch, then I suggest that you stay out of the fray.

And just so you are clear on exactly what I am saying here, it is yet again, True Democrats don't go around threatening their fellow DU members to use their votes as weapons if they don't get way. And yes, if you disagree with that statement, I do question whether you are a "true Democrat". And please don't try again to use your "seniority" to keep me from expressing my opinions - that would be would be cowardly and certainly not the behavior of a "true progressive".

I agree that you are entitled to your opinions of me and my opinions and I am entitled to my opinions about what constitutes cowardly behavior in any setting. I am also entitled, to express my opinions here within the rules of DU, especially when the behavior I am addressing is clearly in violation of the rules of DU.

I shouldn't have to remind you of the terms you agreed to when you joined DU, or maybe I do since you are so old and it was so long ago. The behavior that I am protesting is not only cowardly, it is specifically banned on this website. I understand that some leniency is given during the primaries given that the administrators believe that it is idle talk and that most will come back to the fold once the nominee is chosen. However I have noticed that some who have really been pushing the limits the Administrator's patience are already being banned.

But, let me be more concise for you - you have no business telling me how I should be expressing my opinions on DU, especially on this subject.

or in a perilous situation whereby a good Samaritan saves your life in some way and your self righteous self may be humbled. so, a good lesson to live by is be kind to others.

you brought up age, first - or did you not go back and read your first post to me.

the republican party has a greater influence of narcissists and sociopaths. the democrat party has more empaths and i venture to say, kinder more thoughtful and generous persons. which are you?

you may be able to deliver pith and rancor in your writing and criticism of others - and kick the dog when you walk in the door, grumble, judge and scowl at your neighbors - but, you do not have a friend in me and i'll be damned if someone like you will admonish, chastise and set the bar of how i use my right to vote and for whom i will vote.

don't you dare preach to me about the tos for du - unless you are a sock puppet for one of the admins. then you can do whatever you want.

i am not judging you, per se, as you have judged many of us here. my experience with you is you are quick to make insulting demands and insulting pronouncements of others. your attitude toward me is condescending and disgusting.

further, what prompted you to join du on the friday of the brouhaha with the dnc and debbie wasserman schultz's egregious actions against the bernie sanders campaign? a coinkydink?

... have repeatedly performed for everyone, including yourself to see. I don't recall you doing it, so why do you find it necessary to defend them. Are they not capable of defending themselves?

And one other thing, if you were not one of the ones who was going around threatening other folks with your vote if you didn't get your way, why in the heck did you insert yourself into this conversation? If it wasn't your fight, why were you so anxious to join in?

And quit playing the victim - no one was addressing you personally and no one was attacking your right to vote as you please. I am not in anyway trying to tell you are anyone else how to vote. Again, and for the last time, you can vote any damn way you please as far as I am concerned You are just trying to change the subject to one with which you are more comfortable.

And as as for whay you think of me, "Frankly my dear, ............"

typical republican. yes, i was speaking about my vote. how can i be a victim when i am telling you what you cannot demand of me or others? pfffft.

Tell it to someone who doesn't have a white-hot hatred for a bunch of lying sacks of shit, NO FUCKING SALE.

I'm unwilling to do so which is why I won't ever vote for Hillary, the worst Democratic candidate for Presidency since Reconstruction.

I also will never consider her nomination legitimate now. Never. She should do America a favor and drop out of the race.

the sanders campaign? That's a good one. At least you are admitting you think she'll win. That's progress.

think with the internet they are using places like the DU to foment hate amongst Democrats? Certainly only a tiny percentage of DUers but that is all it would take to stir the pot.

...I've been here since 2002. And I'm not the only old timer who has some difficulties with our party's direction these days, and who does not support the front-runner at this time.

I don't need you telling me how to behave, TYVM.

Nor am I the least bit concerned because of your longevity about your attempts to suppress my opinions. If you are not in agreement that everyone has a right to express their opinions within the bounds of the website's rules, even if those opinions are about the behavior of others, then you are no progressive and don't give a rip what you think.

...I don't need you, who have been here for less than 6 months, to tell me to behave on a web site where I have been a star member for 13 years, TYVM.

No suppression, just my own opinion.

....to tell me what opinions I can express of DU and which I cannot. How you behave on DU is your business. How I chose to react to the behavior of other is my business alone. And to be crude, I don't give a rats ass how long you have been on a website - you longevity does not enhance your opinions in the slightest.

You can continue to try to use the claim that you have been a member for a long time as you wish, but be advised it makes your arguments appear weaker, not stronger. People with strong arguments do not need or use such claims as crutches to prop up their arguments.

During the primary it is allowable to express strong views about the candidates and indeed to say you won't vote for them, as long as you are not advocating for olthers to do the same. By telling people to 'just go, and go now!' you're doing exactly what you accuse others of.

You wrote: "During the primary it is allowable to express strong views about the candidates...." Absolutely correct "....and indeed to say you won't vote for them, as long as you are not advocating for olthers to do the same." Wrong! It is tolerated, not allowable.

Go back and read the rules: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice You can express "ambivalence" about voting for a particular candidate but it isn't permissible to come out and say there is no way you are going to vote for a particular candidate if he or she is the nominee. Someone just got wacked by the administrator for doing just that, not once but three times.

My vote is not for sale. It must be earned. Hillary has not shown the qualities needed to earn that vote. Period. Also, I'm a lifelong democrat, so don't bother pulling the "this is DU" bullshit with me. A vote is sacred. It takes more then just having a "D" next to your name. You have to live up to that "D".

I am just saying that threatening to use your vote a as a weapon against other DU users is disgusting and far from a appreciated.

... the same old "where ya gonna go?" threat.

You need to get some fresh material. This is no longer the only game in town.

Threats are the province of cowards. I am sure that there are plenty of discussion sites where folks will be welcomed after the primaries are over if they chose not to post here. Life is full of choices.

And I am not the one using my vote as a threat against other DU members. I consider such treats as cowardly and despicable and I was honest enough to say so. If you don't like my condemnation of such threats, tough.

... far over-rate the importance of this place. How I plan to vote comes as zero consequence of anything or anyone on this website. You have your thoughts about what's cowardly, I have mine.

I think it's pretty gawddamn cowardly to continually threaten people with banishment to silence them from honestly expressing themselves when they have had their fill of being fucked over by the same lying neoliberal politicians and won't support or vote for them ever again.

BTW, how's working out for you?

But you are absolutely right - how you or I vote will make not an iota of difference in the General election. In fact, if everyone who is a member of DU voted together for one candidate or the other in the general election, or didn't vote at all, I sincerely doubt if it would make any difference at all.

However, I think you can understand that when people repeatedly threaten to use their vote as a weapon if they don't get their way, it gets to be very tiresome and irritating. You shouldn't excuse the bad behavior of others just because they happen to be on your side.

Repeating bullshit doesn't make it smell any different. It's still bullshit.

Frankly, I care fuckall what you think of my "behavior." I am not intimidated.

and if you think what I have written is BS, perhaps you should have your nose checked. Perhaps you are smelling you own sinuses. That happens sometimes when your head is messed up.

Except, you don't so much make threats about what you will do with you vote if Bernie loses the nomination - you make promises. Too bad we won't be seeing you around after the primaries. Of course, that assumes you won't abandon your ideals.

... telling everyone that you are not going to vote for the Democratic nominee. Would that not constitute a "deception" and and "violation of your principles". Or perhaps you are not so principled after all.

And yes I can anticipate your next post, "I will be here because Bernie is going to win the nomination". To which I will answer with a rolling over with laughter smilly and write, "how long have you been engaged in self deception".

I rather doubt that Bernie will win the nomination. If so, I will vote for him. If not, I'll vote for someone else.

Your vote may belong to Clinton, my vote belongs to me.

least of all me. I'll check with you after the primaries.

You may not "care" but you seem awfully concerned about how I vote or what I say about my vote.

I blame her Toadie DWS and the DNC.

Not you.

People aren't crying out for nothing. They feel under-represented and mistreated. They have been for decades, as this party lurches to the Right, screwing everyone along with the Republicans.

Then, when someone who authentically seems to represent a Leftist point of view comes into the process and gains a large following (how large - you say it is small, but you don't really even know how extensive it is, and I assure you it isn't small or insignificant), the Democratic Party takes every opportunity to tell them they don't really matter, why don't they just get into line anyway, there really is no problem with fairness in the nomination process, or with collusion between the DNC and Hillary Clinton's campaign.

Give me a break!!!

I judge people and organizations by what they stand for, and if the Democratic Party stands for the same corrupt mistreatment of Progressives and everything they stand for, then it stops being my party.

Hillary is doing just fine in the debates. The biggest complaint that se Sanders people have had is in the scheduling and amount of debates. Why not join the call for more debates and just schedule them? Because then the cake they have already ordered for Hillary for the night of her coronation may have to be a little bit smaller? No, do these things, right these wrongs, and yes, people like me may actually start donating to the DNC again!!!!!

Democrats. Many have admitted that they are only here on DU because Bernie is in the running for the Democratic nomination; otherwise they wouldn't be here. If Bernie doesn't win, and I anticipate he won't, many have said that there is not way they could vote for Hillary. Had Bernie not been running they would have voted for a third party candidate anyway. You can't lose what you never had.

Most of the rest will either "hold their noses and vote for Clinton" or, if they live in a blue state, they may not vote. Regardless, they are far more worried about a Republican victory than a Clinton victory.

Unfortunately some of the overly emotional, less than pragmatic among us will actually carry though with their threats. That is inevitable - they are so ticked at the "Democratic establishment" and more moderate Democrats that they are probably already lost, but don't forget the Republicans have the same problem regardless of who they nominate.

Regardless, I don't think that the rest of us need to sit while they threaten to use their votes as weapons. Threats are only truly defused when those threatened make it clear that they don't care.

And by the way, I never condemn any candidate for not giving their opponents any advantage they seek. That would just be dumb.

T

And I can tell you, it burns me to the max that the Democratic Party is putting forth one candidate above the others, the one they have selected.

We are supposed to be a representative party, a party that represents the true wishes of the people, and champions them. We also, allegedly, want to win.

You don't win by pissing off large segments of your voting public, and don't fool yourself that they aren't Democrats. I am, my friends are, my relatives are, and we all feel the same.

Why live in the same kind of glass bubble, like those in Washington?

Why not hold a reasonable number of debates, at reasonable times, instead of an agenda that even outside parties can view as false. I mean, c'mon, debates the Saturday evening before Christmas? With all the counter-programming going on? In Iowa at the same time as a major Iowa football game.

It is absolutely clear that these debates are not scheduled to give Democrats everywhere are full and complete view of their possible candidates.

finally, since Hillary is acknowledged as doing so well in the debates, double the reason to hold more.

Why not? What's to lose? That gloating sense of superiority of being inside on the rigged game?

My suggestion is that you and DWS and DNC and Hilary quit the "superiority" game, if they want to attract the kind of crowds they are going to need to have to win the election.

... zero control of DWS and the DNC. Please take your anger elseware.

I find it kind of sad that Hillary supporters are quite as condescending as they are. They like to think they have some kind of moral or intellectual superiority, which is never really proven in any way.

Angry? I am livid that the Democratic Party that exists right now is just as corrupt in their own way as anything else, when it serves no purpose and doesn't have to be that way.

And I am trying to tell any Clinton supporter that will listen, and there don't seem to be many or even any, that neither they, nor Hillary, nor the party, nor Democratic chances in November are served by pissing off a large portion of potential Democratic supporters. And that the solution is easy - run a fair nomination process and even bend over backwards to make it so and appear to be so.

A truly strong person, candidate, group of people would easily see that as the truth and act on it. Dog eat dog believers, not so much.

This is supposed to be one party. Look after those who feel disenfranchised, particularly when there is so little to lose. Hillary has done just fine in debates. Have more of them. Easy answer.

As best I can tell you are the one sticking his nose in this conversation.

Last edited Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:38 PM - Edit history (1)

who are upset about the dnc clinton bias
is exactly how you are responding. just to reflect back to you here - these are your insulting words/implications:
selfish
dumb
selfish
pity "i feel sorry for you"
passion is a bad way to be
misplaced anger
ahead of common sense
irrational
irrational (implied)
need calming down
demands support the the nominee or
go now!
insult "don't let the door hit you in the butt"
insulting "you are much smaller …"
unwelcome

conflate, much? our only back and forth has been here. no need to flatter yourself.

I feel sorry for you. It must suck to be so frightened.Those of you who will always toe the party line, you are the reason we will have a choice between evil and evil lite. Me I won't vote for evil no matter what letter is beside their name on the ballot. I was fool for voting a straight party ticket in every electing since 1976, Those days are over.

....that you aren't going to vote a straight ticket. No one wants to to look over your shoulder as you mark your ballot or peep through the curtain after you have entered the voting booth. And those of us who are supporting other candidates are long past caring what you will do with your vote if your guy doesn't win. Let me repeat - No one cares!

between "selfish self-interests" and say, "altruistic self-interests."

Spent some time on it, then decided it was more trouble than it was worth, and decided to make dinner instead.

I hope dinner was delicious.

spoke at length about the need for exorcisms in these troubled times.

It's scary when Bobby Jindal almost seems rational when compared to other candidates.