2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumVOX: Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic Nominee....!
http://www.vox.com/2015/12/19/10628862/winners-losers-democratic-debate2 winners and 3 losers from the third Democratic debate
Here is a pro-tip for neophytes in the audience Hillary Clinton is going to be the Democratic nominee. If a few major labor unions had joined the Communications Workers in risking the Wrath of Clinton by endorsing Sanders, I think he would qualify as a long-shot but as things stand he is a no-shot. That means Clinton's goals in these debates are pretty simple: she needs to avoid gaffes, and she wants to evade without committing herself to anything that will be too problematic in a general election.
She pulled it off. When baited by David Muir and Bernie Sanders about whether corporate America "loves" her, Clinton stood up for her progressive record while also standing up for the notion that progressive economic policy would be win-win, including for business. It was a passable primary campaign answer, but most of all she delivered an answer that set her up for a general election rather than getting sucked into a leftier-than-thou bidding war with Sanders.
More than that, she once again reminded the world that debating is a format in which she excels. Clinton is not the greatest orator in contemporary politics, but she is among the wonkiest of major politicians certainly the wonkiest one on the stage and she's an extremely effective public speaker for a wonk. Back and forth exchanges over things like the difference between debt-free college and tuition-free college highlighted her virtues as a politician far better than any setpiece speech or 30-second ad would.
mgcgulfcoast
(1,127 posts)Obama fought her tooth and nail in 2008, Sanders has no fight in him.
tobefree
(33 posts)Somebody has a little lesson coming up....
bowens43
(16,064 posts)Hillary will not be president....those who support her are handing the presidency to the lunatics.......good job guys
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)"Millennials - negligeable kids who should vote for me because it is my turn. Debbie agrees, so there's that. What do you mean: their concerns? Get back to me when millennials run Wall Street, will you?"
draa
(975 posts)If she wins the nomination that investigation will be front and center with the Republicans. That's all you'll hear for months. And people are fools if they believe voters will vote for someone being investigated by the FBI. Not going to happen. Ever.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Hillary's a smart one, she is! Always one step ahead of the current challengers and looking forward to anticipate future challengers.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)on that debate stage for sure!
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Corporate elites. That's what the real center is. We need to heed Alan Greenspan and Jack Welch and the Titans of Wall St.
Screw those commies who believe the economy ought to be oriented toward broadly based prosperity for as many people as possible. And to hell; with that quaint notion of a democracy in which government represents the interests of the majority.
Screw those lefties. I hate 'em. Damn Commies.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)in spite of several colicky supporters here.
Laser102
(816 posts)It makes me want to invite her for coffee and a chin wag. Like a neighbor.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)the time.
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)I forget which date but I will be walking to town hall (I can't believe I said that, me walking) and voting for her
bowens43
(16,064 posts)The D party is making a HUUUGGE mistake.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)..................
-bowens 43
Res ipsa loquitur
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html
Happy Holidays.
DSB
Proud Democrat
cali
(114,904 posts)means the thing speaks for itself. The classic example is a surgeon leaving a sponge in a patient, your example is an obvious failure. You have rather a habit of using terminology you don't grasp.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)you don't grasp. "
-cali
I would appreciate not being patronized. My old man had a ninth grade education and was effectively self emancipated at fifteen years old when he left his parents' six floor walk up apartment building in the Bronx to be a stevedore at the Baltimore Shipyard My mom was placed in Rapid Advance and graduated high school at fifteen years old and went to work as a book keeper to support her widowed mom and younger brother. My old man died when I was fourteen and left me and her with a seven hundred and fifty square foot shotgun shack and a lot of debt. Despite all that I worked my way through college and graduate school as a lifeguard, fitness instructor, and bouncer and received a graduate degree, a post graduate degree, and did post graduate work.
I am familiar with Latin terms and don't need instruction in them. I would appreciate not being patronized.
Thank you in advance.
Happy Holidays
DSB
MADem
(135,425 posts)Some light music to brighten your sad day:
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Isn't that your goal?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Persondem
(1,936 posts)as soon as the GOP media turned its big guns on him he would go down in flames. There is too much ammo, too many sound bites. All they would have to do is repeat socialist ad nauseum with mentions of Mao, Marx and Lenin.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Lucky to get 45% of the vote. I'm guessing he would be closer to 40%.
Persondem
(1,936 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Point One- One could quarrel with the notion that Trump is not a fascist. He holds himself out as a strong man who appeals to nationalism , xenophobia, and latent and overt prejudices.
Point two- Some of my "bestest" friends on this board support MOM but he had two moments where his responses were flat. He accused Bernie and Hillary of bickering when they weren't. He had a canned line and used it despite the situation eliminating the need for its use. Also, when he suggested Bernie and Hillary were prisoners of the past the audience groaned.
MADem
(135,425 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)But Marcos, Somoza, Batista, and Franco might provide better comparisons.
Madmiddle
(459 posts)Saturday night. She was tripping all over herself. Bernie looked presidential, but Clinton struggled in her answers. She has no chance of winning. Why do think they tried to set Sanders up on a simple list breach that he reported to them back in October and again in December. No VOX, sorry you are way wrong.
MADem
(135,425 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I don't believe even her most devoted detractors believe she is a poor debater or not in command of the facts.
mdbl
(4,973 posts)so was Reagan, big deal.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)My remarks were directed at the gentleman or lady who opined that Hillary Clinton was an "amateur" who "tripped all over herself."
I like to believe I am a big enough man to give credit where credit is due. I voted against Reagan twice but I would never deny he was a skilled politician and debater.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)force was with Hillary.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/12/democratic-debate-the-force-was-with-clinton.html#
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)word as gospel.
I think they're on the right track, YMMV....
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)Boots on the ground in Syria, her praising Bush, and promising taxcuts.
Yeah, baby, hoorah!
MADem
(135,425 posts)diplomacy.
Yeah, baby, hoorah, indeed....
Thank you, good night, and may the force be with you....
In time, you'll learn to love President Hillary Clinton.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Especially when her point was not to blame Muslims for the behavior of extreme few. Also it was a knock on trump.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)people some of the time, but you cannot please ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME!" Bernie is right (again), the need to balance the scales which have been tilted to favor the filthy rich will not make them a fan of his. Hillary says she will make everyone happy and then later says she will "be tough on Wall Street". Which is it, you cannot have both! We know who who she will favor!
MADem
(135,425 posts)ever seen.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Remember: Sanders is the one with cross-over appeal. She is the one with negative coattails.
MADem
(135,425 posts)We've been too decent to make a big deal of his past. You think the GOP will take the same tack?
His "crossover appeal" would cross over the rainbow bridge the second the GOP started taking him to town. Anyone who doesn't see this doesn't understand how the RNC plays it.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)You have thrown everything but the sink at him, all of it untrue by the way.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Don't make this about me--it's not about ME. It's about a candidate with a lot of "past" in his past that most of the country hasn't yet heard.
Tell us why you assert the GOP won't dig into his past and exploit it for their own purposes, and do their own "swiftboating" of him.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)made up accusations and a storm in a teacup about a security beach the DNC let exist for two whole months.
Face it: the man is too authentic to have immersed himself in scandal the way triangulating Clinton has done.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They could bury him in shit inside a week.
He's got some weirder stuff in his background than rMoney, that the GOP would be delighted to exploit. And he left one helluva paper trail, too. And there's very little "asked and answered" there.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Maybe DWS should schedule some extra debates for the occasion?
MADem
(135,425 posts)BS made it to the general. It would be a shitstorm of disapprobation from the GOP like you've never seen. It would bury him.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Just so you understand: Sanders doesn't run a lot of negative ads against Clinton. You may have noticed that he actually pulled the first one that went there.
If Clinton's trust and likeability numbers are already circling the drain while Sanders does nothing to attack her, imagine how bad it will become once the GOP starts campaigning against her. She got lucky with the Benghazi 11 hour free advertising moment, but she won't be able to brush off everything else the GOP has on her. Especially when some of it is half-true...
MADem
(135,425 posts)He also said he had no superpac--until he removed that comment from his speech when it was revealed that NNFPP had dumped a half million dollars into supporting him. And then, just now, there's this nasty theft of data, this breach of security, this violation of an agreement made with the DNC...
What was that about trust and likability?
My belief that the Sanders campaign was, at least, honest, was completely shattered by that event. It was restored slightly when Sanders apologized to SEC Clinton. It was made worse when it came to my attention that his staffers didn't even TELL THE BOSS about that data breach that they initiated --that "evil" Debbie Wasserman Schultz had to break the bad news to BS because his staffers were trying to clean it up, spin it away, and not tell him. It didn't work out that way, though.
If a guy hires people who will hide shit from him, he's not a good executive.
It doesn't matter, though. This will all be over soon enough, and I can't wait for the day.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Someone who knows a thing or two about how to move about the world stage.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)She does nothing before consulting a poll or a focus group or a campaign donor.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's a funny position to be in, where you insist LISTENING to the electorate is a "bad" thing! If George Bush had done that, maybe we would have skipped Iraq altogether!
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)riversedge
(70,242 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)the newsworthiness of the "stuff." Given enough time, people can get used to anything, and they often do. That said, Sanders has enough "October surprises" in his history to game-change a half dozen campaigns.
Cha
(297,286 posts)FloridaBlues
(4,008 posts)If he is elected all income inequality will magically happen than everything else gets magically fixed.
That's my take away. Perhaps more substance in that pie would have gone along way.
NY times has a good debate analysis.
I was really hoping to hear more.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)She is World Class in fact... Some would say PATHOLOGICAL! Landing in Bosnia under Sniper Fire... Her Mother naming her after Sir Edmund Hillary ... Who climbed Mt Everest 6 years after she was born. She is dangerously overconfident and/or Naive as she advocates for No Fly Zones over Syria, having voted for the Iraq invasion as well as "overseeing"Libya disaster.
Incompetent management over poor judgement and exceptional narcissism are a poor combination for keeping America and Americans ... out of harms way. She is perfectly capable of starting WW III if she sees no problem with enforcing a No Fly Zone with Russian warplanes being the most likely violators. As Bernie so deftly noted as he smoked her in last night's debate...
"A leader must foresee unintended consequences." Something that Hillary has never thought enough about or gotten a feel for.
Alfresco
(1,698 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)It's fine with him if Germany and Denmark have them. But we mustn't have them here.
It's that kind of thinking which makes him a Hillary Clinton supporter. I could have predicted last week that Matthew Yglesias would declare Hillary Clinton the winner of this debate.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Pro tip--CONGRESS will make sure that never happens. "Matthew Yglesias" doesn't have to worry his pretty little head about that at all.
for the irony-impaired.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)This is a part of the world where the United States has tried to play two different approaches. One, work with the tough men, the dictators, for our own benefit and promote democracy. That's a hard road to walk. But I think it's the right road for us to try to travel.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Did you even read the article?
I get the feeling you didn't, because you seem to be talking about something other than the post-debate analysis I posted, here.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)about them. That is crazy talk, it just is. I don't care who says it, that is plain nuts.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)She just said she promotes imperialism and letting brutal dictators continue their practices as long as it serves the interests of the monied class.
MADem
(135,425 posts)of the article I posted, there's no point in going on. You have an agenda that is unrelated to the article that started the thread.
bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)It basically boils down to "she didn't turn into a babbling idiot during any debate". Its all style, no substance. Of course our democratic candidates are polished, its time to look beyond the superficial and look at policy.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not "style," it's a remarkable command of facts and knowledge of world and national affairs.