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bigtree

(85,999 posts)
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:16 PM Dec 2015

Sen. Sanders should have known there would inevitably be military strikes in Libya

Last edited Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:54 PM - Edit history (1)

...consistent with the actions of the UN Security Council to contain Gaddafi; consistent with the guidelines in the Senate resolution he cosponsored with 10 others and voted for which includes a 'no-fly zone' and an 'urging' of the UN Security Council to "take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack."

Sen. Sanders should have known that the resolution he co-sponsored was a green light to the administration which had already begun to get commitments from allies for a military response. The Vermont senator has already demonstrated in this campaign that he understands the consequences of committing to a no-fly zone in areas of civil conflict in his rejection of a no-fly zone in Syria.

He should also know well that the UN Security Council relies on NATO to enforce its sanctions when they decide to employ military force. The non-binding resolution he voted for isn't some benign peace treaty. It's a precipice for military action, especially prescient and hawkish in its intent with regard to Libya.

Interesting how the resolution actually mentions Sec. Clinton, "welcoming her attendance at the United Nations Human Rights Council meeting in Geneva," where the Sec. of State declared that the "United States supports orderly, peaceful, and irreversible transitions..."

"Democratic change must grow from within." she said It cannot be implanted from the outside. And let me be among the first of many to say the West certainly does not have all of the answers. The first steps of change have come quickly and dramatically. It is, however, proving tragically difficult in Libya. In other nations, change is likely to be more deliberate and methodical. In all cases, the United States will support citizens and governments as they work for progress." Clinton told the Council.


What Sanders should have know well was that his resolution mirrored the desires and intentions of the Obama administration in almost every way. There's the support expressed for a 'peaceful' transition of power in both the resolution and in her address to the Council, and, they both employ hawkish descriptions of Gaddafi's brutality against his citizens - evidently designed to provide the background for forceful action.

There's no room to defend Sen. Sanders' support of this resolution by pointing to skepticism, at the time, about the veracity of the claims of Libyan military abuses. Those claims are right there in the bill he sponsored.

We know that, in interviews, Sen. Sanders spoke out against the U.S. role in bombing Libya. I think that's a correct stance. Yet, the senator is in the awkward position of having petitioned for official approval of an almost certain military response to, what his resolution had already proclaimed were, horrific abuses by the Libyan military against civilians.

Moreover, he appears to be calling for a limited military engagement, rather than completely objecting to military force. How could he, anyway? He should have known well that the U.S. is the primary instigator and military force behind NATO which he urged to "take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack."

Was he really naive about the support his resolution provided for an escalation of the U.S. response to Gaddafi - support which encouraged precisely the type of military response Pres. Obama approved and executed?

Basically, the Obama administration and Sen. Sanders were on the same page regarding Libya; at least that's the consequence of the legislation he co-sponsored and voted for.


here's the resolution:


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
March 1, 2011

Mr. Menendez (for himself, Mr. Kirk, Mr. Lautenberg, Mr. Durbin, Mrs. Gillibrand, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Whitehouse, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Casey, Mr. Wyden, and Mr. Cardin) submitted the following resolution; which was considered and agreed to
RESOLUTION

Strongly condemning the gross and systematic violations of human rights in Libya, including violent attacks on protesters demanding democratic reforms, and for other purposes.

Whereas Muammar Gadhafi and his regime have engaged in gross and systematic violations of human rights, including violent attacks on protesters demanding democratic reforms, that have killed thousands of people;

Whereas Muammar Gadhafi, his sons and supporters have instigated and authorized violent attacks on Libyan protesters using warplanes, helicopters, snipers and soldiers and continue to threaten the life and well-being of any person voicing opposition to the Gadhafi regime;

Whereas the United Nations Security Council and the international community have condemned the violence and use of force against civilians in Libya and on February 26, 2011, the United Nations Security Council unanimously agreed to refer the ongoing situation in Libya to the International Criminal Court, impose an arms embargo on the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including the provision of mercenary personnel, freeze the financial assets of Muammar Gadhafi and certain family members, and impose a travel ban on Gadhafi, certain family members and senior advisors;

Whereas Muammar Gadhafi has ruled Libya for more than 40 years by banning and brutally opposing any individual or group opposing the ideology of his 1969 revolution, criminalizing the peaceful exercise of expression and association, refusing to permit independent journalists' and lawyers' organizations, and engaging in torture and extrajudicial executions, including the 1,200 detainees killed in Abu Salim Prison in June 1996;

Whereas Libya took formal responsibility for the terrorist attack that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 270 people, 189 of whom were U.S. citizens and high-ranking Libyan officials have indicated that Muammar Gadhafi personally ordered the attack; and

Whereas Libya was elected to the United Nations Human Rights Council on May 13, 2010 for a period of 3 years, sending a demoralizing message of indifference to the families of the victims of Pan Am flight 103 and Libyan citizens that have endured repression, arbitrary arrest, enforced disappearance or physical assault in their struggle to obtain basic human and civil rights: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the Senate—

(1) applauds the courage of the Libyan people in standing up against the brutal dictatorship of Muammar Gadhafi and for demanding democratic reforms, transparent governance, and respect for basic human and civil rights;

(2) strongly condemns the gross and systematic violations of human rights in Libya, including violent attacks on protesters demanding democratic reforms;

(3) calls on Muammar Gadhafi to desist from further violence, recognize the Libyan people’s demand for democratic change, resign his position and permit a peaceful transition to democracy governed by respect for human and civil rights and the right of the people to choose their government in free and fair elections;

(4) calls on the Gadhafi regime to immediately release persons that have been arbitrarily detained, to cease the intimidation, harassment and detention of peaceful protestors, human rights defenders and journalists, to ensure civilian safety, and to guarantee access to human rights and humanitarian organizations;

(5) welcomes the unanimous vote of the United Nations Security Council on resolution 1970 referring the situation in Libya to the International Criminal Court, imposing an arms embargo on the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, freezing the assets of Gadhafi and family members, and banning international travel by Gadhafi, members of his family, and senior advisors;

(6) urges the Gadhafi regime to abide by United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 and ensure the safety of foreign nationals and their assets, and to facilitate the departure of those wishing to leave the country as well as the safe passage of humanitarian and medical supplies, humanitarian agencies and workers, into Libya in order to assist the Libyan people;

(7) urges the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory;

(8) welcomes the African Union’s condemnation of the “disproportionate use of force in Libya” and urges the Union to take action to address the human rights crisis in Libya and to ensure that member states, particularly those bordering Libya, are in full compliance with the arms embargo imposed by United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 against the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including the ban on the provision of armed mercenary personnel;

(9) welcomes the decision of the United Nations Human Rights Council to recommend Libya’s suspension from the Council and urges the United Nations General Assembly to vote to suspend Libya’s rights of membership in the Council;

(10) welcomes the attendance of Secretary of State Clinton at the United Nations Human Rights Council meeting in Geneva and 1) urges the Council’s assumption of a country mandate for Libya that employs a Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in Libya and 2) urges the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations to advocate for improving United Nations Human Rights Council membership criteria at the next United Nations General Assembly in New York City to exclude gross and systematic violators of human rights; and

(11) welcomes the outreach that has begun by the United States Government to Libyan opposition figures and supports an orderly, irreversible transition to a legitimate democratic government in Libya
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Sen. Sanders should have known there would inevitably be military strikes in Libya (Original Post) bigtree Dec 2015 OP
Let me put it this way... JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #1
if you listed crimes and abuses bigtree Dec 2015 #2
Well, let's see, in a nonbinding resolution Sanders voted that he JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #3
so, he co-sponsored a resolution he didn't agree with? bigtree Dec 2015 #4
What is clear to you is not clear to me. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #5
so, we disagree bigtree Dec 2015 #6
You are correct, JonLeibowitz, nothing in that vote authorized military strikes against Libya. Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #7
Why thanks! Hi! n/t JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #8
that's a deflection from my point bigtree Dec 2015 #9
The Congress nor the Security Council ever authorized military strikes against Libya. Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #11
that has nothing to do with the point I'm making bigtree Dec 2015 #13
A no fly zone is an entirely different animal than military strikes against a nation. Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #16
everyone knew this meant a military foot-in-the-door for the U.S. bigtree Dec 2015 #17
That'a another point, the Security Council never approved military strikes either. n/t Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #18
um bigtree Dec 2015 #19
I stand corrected but the resolution that Bernie voted for never did. n/t Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #20
no, it just expressed approval of those military actions which the UN deemed appropriate bigtree Dec 2015 #21
A few points Armstead Dec 2015 #10
I include my perspective on the action for my own edification bigtree Dec 2015 #12
I mentioned Iraq to illustrate the difference Armstead Dec 2015 #14
Excellent discussion. Reading. nt. NCTraveler Dec 2015 #15
Kick Cha Dec 2015 #22
The war mongers will find a way to war. PowerToThePeople Dec 2015 #23

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
1. Let me put it this way...
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:48 PM
Dec 2015

I condemn Putin's acts against his people and support an orderly, irreversible transition to a legitimate democratic government in Russia. Were I an elected representative to Congress, I might even cosponsor such a "sense of the senate" resolution (note that the resolution was not introduced into the House, it was not intended as creating law) saying as much. I mean, who wouldn't want to see an orderly transition to a legitimate democratic government in russia?

Do I now support military intervention and regime change in Russia?

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
2. if you listed crimes and abuses
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:58 PM
Dec 2015

...and urged the activators of your international military force to "take such further action as may be necessary," specifying destabilizing, provocative, and risky air support.

I recall that Sen. Sanders opposing no-fly zones recently in Syria, out of concern about the consequences of having to actually deploy that destructive power.


JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
3. Well, let's see, in a nonbinding resolution Sanders voted that he
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:03 PM
Dec 2015

(7) urges the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory;


Do you have any other language that could possibly make this less binding and more noncommittal? Saying that Bernie voted for a no fly zone over Libya and called for regime change through military action is quite a bit of an exaggeration, and in my opinion a factually-incorrect smear.

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
4. so, he co-sponsored a resolution he didn't agree with?
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:06 PM
Dec 2015

...what was the intent of the resolution?

It was clearly a measure of support for the clear ambitions of the Obama administration which this resolution agrees with, almost word for word.

The point of this post isn't that Sanders supported regime change through military intervention. The point is that his resolution mirrored the ambitions of the Obama administration, however you want to characterize them. It's bogus to come out now and claim he was against the very military action that his resolution 'urges.'

I'm certainly entitled to my own opinion about the manner governments posture for war.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
5. What is clear to you is not clear to me.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:09 PM
Dec 2015

It could equally well be intended to send a message to Libyan leaders to turn their country around, in the sense of the senate. That is what many foreign affairs resolutions are intended for.

Uncle Joe

(58,370 posts)
7. You are correct, JonLeibowitz, nothing in that vote authorized military strikes against Libya.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:15 PM
Dec 2015

Welcome to D.U.

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
9. that's a deflection from my point
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:28 PM
Dec 2015

...the resolution contains an expression of approval of military action.

It 'urges' the Security Council to take all necessary action to protect civilians from attacks while declaring that those abuses are already occurring. The resolution lists the crimes and proscribes the response. It's a green light for the military actions that the administration was obviously considering at the time.

Was Sanders so naive as to believe the end result wouldn't be a UN sponsored NATO military response in which the U.S. would inevitably be the primary force?

There's not a speck of daylight between the resolution he sponsored and the administration's statements and actions. Nowhere did the Obama administration or Hillary Clinton call for a military overthrow of the Libyan government.

Yet, we'd be incredibly naive in believing that Menedez's resolution wasn't meant to express support for an escalation into some sort of military response; especially since it specifically 'urged' the introduction of military air support. It's a military foot-in-the-door.

Either Sen. Sanders was naive, disingenuous in his support of the resolution, or he isn't being candid about his understanding of the import of the legislation he sponsored.

Uncle Joe

(58,370 posts)
11. The Congress nor the Security Council ever authorized military strikes against Libya.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:44 PM
Dec 2015

This Congressional resolution was non-binding and didn't authorize military strikes, which is an entirely different animal than a no-fly zone.

The only thing that matters is authorization.



Since the start of the campaign, there have been allegations of violating the limits imposed upon the intervention by Resolution 1973 and by US law. At the end of May 2011, Western troops were captured on film in Libya, despite Resolution 1973 specifically forbidding "a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory".[208] In the article however, it reports that armed Westerners but not Western troops were on the ground.[208]

(snip)

On June 24, the US House voted against Joint Resolution 68, which would have authorized continued US military involvement in the NATO campaign for up to one year.[210][211] The majority of Republicans voted against the resolution,[212] with some questioning US interests in Libya and others criticizing the White House for overstepping its authority by conducting a military expedition without Congressional backing. House Democrats were split on the issue, with 115 voting in favor of and 70 voting against. Despite the failure of the President to receive legal authorization from Congress, the Obama administration continued its military campaign, carrying out the bulk of NATO's operations until the overthrow of Gadaffi in October.

On 9 August, the head of UNESCO, Irina Bokova deplored a NATO strike on Libyan State TV, Al-Jamahiriya, that killed 3 journalists and wounded others.[213] Bokova declared that media outlets should not be the target of military activities. On 11 August, after the NATO airstrike on Majer (on 9 August) that allegedly killed 85 civilians, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on all sides to do as much as possible to avoid killing innocent people.[214]


(snip)

Some critics of Western military interdiction suggested that resources—not democratic or humanitarian concerns—were the real impetus for the intervention, among them a journalist of London Arab nationalist newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi, the Russian TV network RT and the (then-)leaders of Venezuela and Zimbabwe, Hugo Chávez and Robert Mugabe.[217][218][219][220] Gaddafi's Libya, despite its relatively small population, was known to possess vast resources, particularly in the form of oil reserves and financial capital.[221] Libya is a member of OPEC and one of the world's largest oil producers. It was producing roughly 1.6 million barrels a day before the war, nearly 70 percent of them through the state-owned National Oil Corporation.[222] Additionally, the country's sovereign wealth fund, the Libyan Investment Authority, was one of the largest in the world,[223] controlling assets worth approximately US$56 billion,[224] including over 100 tons of gold reserves in the Central Bank of Libya.[225]

Accusations of imperialism on the part of NATO and the West were voiced by many leaders of states that had traditionally aligned themselves with the Communist bloc and subsequently Russia, including: Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei (who said he supported the rebels but not Western intervention[220]), Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez (who referred to Gaddafi as a "martyr"[219]), and President of Zimbabwe Robert Mugabe (who referred to the Western nations as "vampires"[218]), as well as the governments of Raúl Castro in Cuba,[226] Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua,[227] Kim Jong-il in North Korea,[228] Hifikepunye Pohamba in Namibia,[229] and others. Gaddafi himself referred to the intervention as a "colonial crusade ... capable of unleashing a full scale war",[230] a sentiment that was echoed by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin: "[UNSC Resolution 1973] is defective and flawed...It allows everything. It resembles medieval calls for crusades."[231] President Hu Jintao of the People's Republic of China said, "Dialogue and other peaceful means are the ultimate solutions to problems," and added, "If military action brings disaster to civilians and causes a humanitarian crisis, then it runs counter to the purpose of the UN resolution."[232] Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was critical of the intervention as well, rebuking the coalition in a speech at the UN in September 2011.[233] Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, despite the substantial role his country played in the NATO mission, also spoke out against getting involved: "I had my hands tied by the vote of the parliament of my country. But I was against and I am against this intervention which will end in a way that no-one knows" and added "This wasn't a popular uprising because Gaddafi was loved by his people, as I was able to see when I went to Libya."[234][235]

Russia's foreign broadcasting service, RT, has postulated that NATO intervention may have been motivated by Gaddafi's attempts to establish a unified federation of African states that would use the gold dinar as its currency and demand that foreign importers of African oil pay in gold.[217] Despite its stated opposition to NATO intervention, Russia abstained from voting on Resolution 1973 instead of exercising its veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council; four other powerful nations also abstained from the vote—India, China, Germany, and Brazil—but of that group only China has the same veto power.[236]

Moreover, criticisms have been made on the way the operation was led. According to Michael Kometer and Stephen Wright, the outcome of the Libyan intervention was reached by default rather than by design. It appears that there was an important lack of consistent political guidance caused particularly by the vagueness of the UN mandate and the ambiguous consensus among the NATO-led coalition. This lack of clear political guidance was translated into an incoherent military planning on the operational level. Such a gap may impact the future NATO's operations that will probably face trust issues.[237]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
13. that has nothing to do with the point I'm making
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:00 PM
Dec 2015

...Sen. Sanders can't just turn around and say, 'I didn't really mean I supported a no-fly zone, because the resolution is 'non-binding.'

The resolution and his co-sponsorship of it is clear support for what the administration intended and ultimately did, including the military action. Their language is nearly identical.

It makes no sense to come on today, as he did in the debate, and claim Hilliary supported anything other than he expressed support for in that resolution.

Uncle Joe

(58,370 posts)
16. A no fly zone is an entirely different animal than military strikes against a nation.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:10 PM
Dec 2015

We had a no fly zone over Iraq for years but we didn't bomb their people en masse and try to overthrow Saddam until Bush waged his war based on lies helped in large part by Hillary's vote.

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
17. everyone knew this meant a military foot-in-the-door for the U.S.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:17 PM
Dec 2015

...just ** shocked ** that it escalated into NATO calling for airstrikes.

Wonder what the limitations actually were on the resolution's 'urging' the Security Council to employ all means necessary?

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
21. no, it just expressed approval of those military actions which the UN deemed appropriate
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:31 PM
Dec 2015
(7) urges the United Nations Security Council to take such further action as may be necessary to protect civilians in Libya from attack, including the possible imposition of a no-fly zone over Libyan territory;
 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
10. A few points
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:38 PM
Dec 2015

Foreign policy isn't easy There are often ambiguous situations, where an outcome is not certain or even likely. Or where the best of bad choices is necessary....However, there are also situations where the outcome is clearer.

Sanders is not a blanket pacifist. He is willing to use force when necessary. The question is how and for what end.

1)Obama was president duriung that. . Not Bush or some other obvious warmonger. Sanders was actually supporting Obama in a very complex crisis, in which everyone was stumbling for an answer. The problem with our Libyan policy is that we ultimately participated in regime change, without any planning or sufficient follow up.

2) Urging the United Nations and International community to stand against the abuses of a dictator is NOT the same as our unilateral invasion of Iraq. Bush's "conditions" were just window dressing, and that was clear to anyone with a brain. Support for Bush's actions was the same as endorsing war. Less so in Libya, although it did turn out badly.

3) There is a difference between supporting a no-fly zone against Ghadaffi -- where nations were not supportive of him -- and tghe same policy in Syria, where the shooting of Russian or Iranian aircraft would be much more likely, with much more significant consequences.

bigtree

(85,999 posts)
12. I include my perspective on the action for my own edification
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:54 PM
Dec 2015

...what I hope to impart is how similar the resolution is to the administration's own statements. It even encourages their military actions; maybe not in totality, but in effect of the consequences of the no-fly zone they called for.

With all of the abuses that were outlined in the resolution it strains credulity to imagine the sponsors didn't realize that military action would inevitably result in the deployment of devastating force.

I don't know why you brought Iraq into this. This is about Sanders' attempt to portray Hillary in the debate as possessing a heightened desire for regime change (or, however he put it), based on the military action authorized by Pres. Obama in Libya.

Nowhere does the administration or Sec. Clinton call for the military overthrow of Libya. In fact, her own rhetoric (at an appearance highlighted in the actual resolution) is identical to his own calls for a 'peaceful' transition of government.

I'm not so naive as to believe that either party was overly opposed to using U.S. military strikes as an instigator for the removal of Gaddafi from power. Yet, however you view their motives or intent, their rhetoric is nearly identical. It's not clear to me how Sen. Sanders has any room to claim any daylight between his position and Sen. Clinton's regarding Libya.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
14. I mentioned Iraq to illustrate the difference
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:05 PM
Dec 2015

Also, and this is a big difference, there already was a civl war/revolution going on in Lybia. This was not a regime change we instigated. Libyans were already going against Ghadaffi, and he was already retaliating in brutal fashion. It was more a situation we had to take a side in an existing conflict, and seek out the least destructive resolution.

Libya was a tough choice. It was also in the wake of the Arab Spring when it seemed that "democratic revolutions" were sweeping the region and would have good results. That turned out to be a fallacy -- but very few foresaw that at the time.

With the wisdom of hindsight, Sanders -- and perhaps Clinton and Obama -- may well have been less inclined to follow the course they did. But humanitarian international sanctions against atrocities that were already raging towards war is not what he was criticizing.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
23. The war mongers will find a way to war.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 08:03 PM
Dec 2015

Sanders is aware of this fact, I am sure.

Luckily Sanders is not one of the war mongers.

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