Imo, I think the answer is probably 'yes'. At least in the early stages where a country is on the way to becoming a Police State but hasn't totally gone there yet.

So long as people mind their own business and don't get involved in protests etc, which a majority of people do not, or are not a part of a minority, such as African Americans and now in the US, Muslim Americans, it is unlikely they will notice the move towards a totalitarian state. And even when given examples, most people, because they do not belong to any of the groups being targeted, will probably dismiss the claims. Until it happens to someone they know and love, or to them personally.

I read an interview with a German Professor who was in Germany during the period before it was completely out of control. He described the slow progression of what we looking back often think was a sudden takeover by Hitler. He describes people talking and sometimes being concerned about the latest law that was passed. But then they forgot about it, until the next one was passed.

He stated that it 'happened incrementally' which is why there was no real effort to try to stop it. Of course there were people who saw the writing on the wall early on, but they were called paranoid etc. He also said that people were waiting for one BIG THING that would make it more obvious that things were really bad. But it didn't happen that way.

I don't think we will proceed down this path as other countries have, because there ARE people both now, and when it happened in the past, who are standing up against it.

However I do think we are definitely headed in that direction, and without those willing to take a stand, we are not immune at all from what has happened elsewhere throughout history.

Usually when people try to assemble and organize to question authority in a serious way, the police state aspect shows its uglier side.

Police state is probably like a scale. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much of a police state is this? I think we are pretty free. But there are many troubling aspects of authoritarian control in place and the trend looks pretty bad I think. Prisons for profit, stop-and-frisk policies, violent crackdowns against political protests and encampments, misuse of grand juries to intimidate dissidents, failure to hold law enforcement accountable for abuses, government monitoring all communications... these are all serious business. We really don't know if our rights on paper are worth anything until we try to exercise them and see what the reaction is. Protest has a value all by itself because it asserts the right to protest.

Last edited Wed Oct 17, 2012, 01:48 AM - Edit history (1)

If you knew nothing else about the serious whistle blower craziness I seem to have became embroiled in, would you say that the law was being obeyed by these State and Federal officials in the documents listed below?

Department of Labor 2/7/12 Page1


Department of Labor 2/7/12 Page2


Department of Labor 2/7/12 Page3


California EDD and CUAIB 2/14/12 Page 1


California EDD and CUAIB 2/14/12 Page 2


1. California Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board Case A0-265448 challenged a MISTAKE in the Federal Emergency Unemployment Compensation Program on 10/20/2011 and prevailed. $2786 in ARRA funds were restored (EUC08 is part of the Recovery Act).

2. The claimant made a request that this case be made a precedent so that other people who were victims of the same error would have their funds and rights restored (10/21/11+).

3. Instead the state and federal government refused to respond. They worked together to squash this precedent decision in these letters, because it is easier to commit ARRA Fraud than to admit a historic implementation error.

4. In these letters Federal officials threaten the State of California with the END of the EUC08 Agreement. This means no benefits for anyone, if California DARES to uses this case as a "precedent" for any other claimants who was a victim of the illegal federal policy that was challenged and refuted on 10/20/11. They quote the EXACT SAME POLICY ERROR that was taken to court and REFUTED on 10/20/11. They clearly intend to "enforce this mistake" despite the court victory.

5. They say....set no precedent...whether you can overturn the case or not. They refuse to pay federal ARRA funds in support of a legitimate appeal victory. This causes the state to pick up the bill. Because as you can see, they decide it would not be in their best interest to bring the appeal victory before ANY judge, in order to cover this all up.

6. The appeal case stands unchallenged to present day and funds continue to be paid and "called EUC08" but the State of California is actually footing the bill.

FUBAR.

The Police State has arrived, when State and Federal officials are allowed to get away with what you see in these letters.

Help stop this BS:
http://www.change.org/petitions/department-of-labor-errors-are-robbing-the-unemployed-out-of-recovery-aid

surrogates and/or bosses, gets another bill the people will have to pay?

That threat doesn't sound legal to me. How about calling their bluff and taking them to court based on that threat alone?

Is it possible for the PEOPLE, those whose benefits are under threat to file a class action suit? The document says that the State of Ca is not to use the case as a precedent. What legal basis do they have for making that threat anyhow?

But a class action suit by the beneficiaries is not the State of CA and they are really the ones being threatened. I don't see any downside to such a suit. I have a feeling rather than risk publicity of their authoritarian edicts they might be willing to settle?

Thank you for one of the most intelligent responses I have gotten to date.
The problem is NATIONWIDE btw.
The error that was REFUTED with that appeal victory was published in a Federal Program Letter for EUC08 sent to ALL States on August 15,2008 in UIPL 23-08 Change 1, Q&A #7 under section D. Monetary Eligibility (Multiple EUC Claims violates three federal regulations at 20 CFR 615).

Most people just throw things and call me a liar or worse.
I did not intend to stumble across this huge mess nor be at this place and time right before the election. The government set the stage and has played it out right to here and now:

That threat is not legal at all. The DOL's own website clearly states they have NO AUTHORITY in ANY state determination matter (especially the precedent request for THE CASE that exposed a federal DOL policy implementation mistake in the EUC08 program). How can they threaten the ENTIRE STATE with the loss of the EUC08 program, over my appeal precedent request? Unchecked Abuse of Authority at the corrupt Department of Labor with no IG (none appointed for four years)?

It comes from the same agency, the Employment & Training Administration, that ignored the appeal victory that refuted the example they provide in the 2/7/12 letter (that is the Multiple EUC Claim error I refute by that appeal victory). They intend to enforce their "mistake" over the appeal victory that "actually follows the REAL law" from Title 20 Chapter V Part 615 (to protect themselves).

I would prefer the US Government stop ignoring its oversight duties in order to avoid lengthy, wasteful and expensive court action. Laws and Regulations stipulate that they should have acted to investigate. These letter proves otherwise I think. They want to drag this out as long a possible. Guilty parties use this legal tactic when they have no other choice. They could easily refute me in court if I were wrong and they were right correct? Court action just further delays the emergency aid meant for the unemployed that was denied for almost four years now to millions....

I requested that California CUIAB Case A0-265448 be made a precedent 10/21/11+.
I filed a complaint with the federal Department of Labor Office of Inspector General against the federal DOL Employment & Training Administration (source of the implementation error=Robert Wagner Chief of Special Benefits) (November 2011+).
I filed a Recovery Fraud complaint with the Recovery Accountability & Transparency Board against the federal Department of Labor and their OIG (March 2011+ in RATB-2011-DOL-9DF2506-0).

While the 2/7/12 and 2/14/12 letters were going on behind my back (until FOIA revealed this information July 2012+), I was WAITING FOR A RESPONSE to the Precedent Request, to the DOL OIG investigation request and the Recovery Fraud Complaint.

I never got one, except the DOL OIG on 2/17/12 (!) telling me they would not investigate (third refusal in six months and just after the 2/7 AND 2/14 letters?). The actual response is found in the letter that prove that numerous state and federal officials conspired to commit fraud in these letters to protect themselves (and enforce their MISTAKE on the State of California despite the law and the appeal victory that refutes them). Their intent was to ignore my request and cover this up in those letters (2/7 and 2/14/12).

They all "say" that they obey Federal Regulations for Extended Benefits, Inspector General Act Oversight, Improper Payments Act Oversight ad Recovery Act Oversight. But, the letters above prove they CONSPIRED to SUBVERT ALL OF THIS OVERSIGHT to protect themselves by trying to cover up my appeal victory (at least squash the precedent so nobody else would get help against a government mistake). I have directly challenged them to provide the same "legal backing" for their EUC08 implementation, as I did to refute them in court. They have declined. Repeatedly.

I am sad to report that the very administration running for office, may be involved more than you all would like to find out (all I know is what you see here below):









THAT was the response to me making a complaint and precedent request with the CUIAB after I won my appeal, to the DOL OIG complaint, to the Recover Fraud Complaint, and to the months of attempts I have made to get ANY ANSWER out of our government in my effort to petition them to redress this serious grievance that affects billions of ARRA dollars and millions of unemployed struggling workers and families. These other documents from FOIA above all LINK the White House to that memorandum and the events coming afterwards that Dale Zielger and Betty Castillo refer to: contact with the the State of California in the 2/7/12 letter father above.

Something scary rotten seems to be going on yes?

I must stress. I won my appeal. My case stands despite these efforts against me. They never took the case to court, but squashed the precedent without informing me. The appeal victory that restored $2786 ARRA dollars denied over 26 weeks due to this federal error, stands despite the 2/7/12 letter saying the "decision violates federal law". All the "decision" violates is a historic "FEDERAL MISTAKE" that they intended to cover up. I have had numerous supportive determinations for EUC08 based on the appeal decision that supported 20 CFR 615 regulations over the DOL implementation errors ("multiple euc claims&quot . If it violates federal law...why haven't they taken it before a judge since?

All I want to do is help the other unemployed who got screwed out of their EUC08 benefits like I was, by the same error I beat in court, that our government REFUSES to acknowledge. I am working on the last attempts to get the government to respond, investigate and repair this problem (with the FBI and DOJ right now). I think they intend to cover this up and get away with it if they can. MANY law firms have been and are being contacted for what may be a historic class action suit against the feds if they force it that way (maybe they could just obey the laws that they WROTE). The media is SILENT on ALL sides. Nobody can refute my evidence.

All that stands in the way is one tired unemployed ex-union worker who has voted liberal and democratic his whole life. All I have gotten so far in return has been to watch the decline of western civilization unfold before my eyes. I am horrified at the lack of investigative reporting. I am appalled at the treatment of the unemployed victims of this recession (many of them VETERANS whom we have already abused for a decade+). I cannot believe that the White House I had so much hope in could be involved. But WHY ELSE were they notified about my appeal case that prevailed on 10/20/11? (both on the 18th and 21st by Dale Zielger of the DOL).

The unemployed "have no power" in the governments eyes. So we must sue them to obey the law. Great country isn't it? No help from the DOJ, nor FBI either. Nobody is protecting the citizens nor watching the billions of ARRA dollars spent so far. Government protects itself FIRST above US.

Meanwhile these criminals, who have committed ARRA fraud to hide their historic EUC08 implementation errors, walk free, while millions of unemployed struggle to survive without the emergency designated funds they were promised BY LAW:

Robert Wagner - Chief of Special Benefits DOL
Suzanne Simonetta - Legislature Chief Division of Unemployment DOL
Dale Ziegler - Unemployment Insurance Division DOL
Gay Gilbert - Employment & Training Administration DOL
Hilda Solis - Head of the Department of Labor DOL

Eder Marcus - DOL OIG
Robert Coyle - DOL OIG
Freddie Howell - DOL OIG
Daniel Petrole - DOL OIG

Donald Cox - RATB

Pam Harris - California EDD
Robert Dresser - California Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board
Alberto Roland - California Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board
Mark Woo Sam - California Workforce
Marty Morgenstern - California Workforce

(all are free and still collecting a paycheck from uncle sam and you are footing the bill with your taxes for their malfeasance in office and ARRA fraud, abuse, waste and harm being committed against our Economy and Citizens while nobody except me investigates. Most of these individuals have "lawyer'd up" and told me so in writing. Recent FOIA attempts have been violated, but the last round they accepted showed around 50+ documents per agency being redacted due to "attorney client privilege&quot .

Something should be done (in addition to my securing legal counsel and helping other claimants go to superior court starting November 1, 2012):
http://www.change.org/petitions/department-of-labor-errors-are-robbing-the-unemployed-out-of-recovery-aid

oh well.
I have been labeled by a 100% fair and impartial "jury" as an "anti-obama troll".
That is inaccurate fear mongering that McCarthy would be proud of.
Investigative journalism is dead here too it seems:

"At Wed Oct 17, 2012, 01:49 AM, an alert was sent on the following post:

howdy. meet the whistle blower everyone will be mad at soon.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12564314

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Anti-Obama troll, confirmed by the links in their post."

So if you have a "differing opinion" or "news and facts" that at least 5 people that you don't like you, then your "democratic" voice WILL BE SILENCED? Wow. Democracy and free speech bye bye. All sides have backed into their own corners and plan to fight to the death any differing opinions that don't fit their "world view".

Very fair and democratic. Just like the paranoid mobbers on daily kos.
Enjoy your "one sided" discussion.
That is the best way to elect someone obviously.
By mob rule and hyper partisan opinions.

Btw.
Here is the "subversive anit-obama post" I made that got hidden in less than 20 minutes:

howdy. meet the whistle blower everyone will be mad at soon.
Greetings and Apologies in advance.

About me:
I am more of a doer than a writer. I spent a great part of my adult life "on the road" working in the entertainment industry as a lighting console programmer, lighting director/designer and lead/crew chief for gigs in all sorts of industries across north and south America (even a stint in Shanghai China). I have spent COUNTLESS hours practicing the "art" of troubleshooting all sorts of "hi-tech" systems, in all sorts of venues, under every condition and circumstance you could imagine in "show biz". I know a thing or two about spotting a problem is what I am getting at...

I grew up very liberal and democratic. My travels have only opened my eyes further in that direction (and beyond). I even turned down working the Republican National Convention "tour" (geez 2000-2001)?, when that idiot rich kid Bush was getting ready to screw us all for the foreseeable future. I just could not imagine holding my tongue at front of house.

So imagine my surprise that I end up in the position of whistle-blower and investigative reporter who has stumbled across a serious "problem" that nobody else wants to look into nor deal with:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1252&pid=4021

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1252&pid=4042

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=140451

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=240942

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1394663

I apologize for bringing this problem to light. The government has left me no choice and the timing was not planned. I must help the unemployed victims of the same error I was able to prevail against in court. What else would you have me do, when the government refuses to help and the media refuses to report?

I am planning on starting a Public and Media disclosure thread here.
If I am not stoned to death for what I have said so far, would anyone suggest a good place to post this here?

I appear to be the only one interested in helping the other unemployed victims of the same error I was able to refute...

http://www.change.org/petitions/department-of-labor-errors-are-robbing-the-unemployed-out-of-recovery-aid
http://s1359.beta.photobucket.com/user/corazonroto512/library/

Yep. Lock me up and throw away the key for trying to help the unemployed....
THIS is the "police state" we WERE discussing.
GOODBYE censors...and good luck.

I wonder if the police in any police state view what they are doing as working for a police state or do they really see protesters as enemies of their countries?

What makes them capable of beating up what are most of the time, their neighbors, certainly their fellow citizens who are not a foreign, enemy army? What dynamic is at work that doesn't make them walk away and refuse to participate in the brutality?

Has it ever happened, that the police refused to follow orders?

It DID happen I remember now. It happened in Wisconsin when the police joined the protesters and refused to evict them from Capitol stating that the Gov did not have the authority to order them to do so.

But that is rare. I wonder why?